THE JIM SHOOTER AVENGERS INTERVIEW (Page 1 of 4)
--A WONDER MAN: COOLER THAN SUPERMAN EXCLUSIVE--
INTERVIEWER: MITCHEL
Editor in chief of MARVEL COMICS for almost a decade: JIM SHOOTER. Jim was perhaps one of the youngest talents to ever start writing comics professionally. At age thirteen he was writing Superman, Superboy and Legion of Superheroes for DC. Two years after he moved to Marvel he was made editor in chief. In those two years previous to his promotion and then while still being the editor in chief he wrote some of the most amazing tales ever to grace the pages of THE AVENGERS and planted ideas in the book who redefined old established characters like Hank Pym, the Wasp, Vision and Scarlet Witch. But most important to this site, it was Jim Shooter the guy who inherited the character of WONDER MAN for the first time since that classic Lee/Kirby story that introduced him. Jim Shooter, previous Superman writer, gave us an all too human born in the USA Superman in the figure of Wonder Man. After many failed attempts I was finally able to track him down and interview him:

1-There has been much talk in Avengers message boards between fans about what prompted Marvel to bring back Wonder Man from the dead back to the pages of the Avengers after being a character that was left dead for such a long time. In a recent Alter Ego article (#13) an old interview with Stan Lee from 1965 by the guys from a fanzine called CRUSADER reveals this:
Editor: "Why did you 'kill off' Wonder Man (who appears in The Avengers)?"
Stan:: "Well, that is a very interesting story. We were intending to bring him back, but we found that DC had a story about a year ago, concerning a robot named Wonder Man. I myself never saw or heard [of] him. The head of National Comics wrote to us and informed us of the fact that he had already used the name Wonder Man. We do not want to use anyone else's name, so only for that reason, we are not bringing Wonder Man back. And besides, we can't, because we don't copy anyone."
So it seems the whole Wonder Woman connection is just old rumor. Did you ever have any talk with Stan Lee about Wonder Man that may confirm or negate this statement? You were there when it finally happened and you were a part of the creative team that wrote Avengers 151, your first Avengers issue. Could you describe what's the inside story behind Wonder Man's return?
I think that Stan was being circumspect. Around the time of Gerry Conway’s brief return to Marvel, DC introduced Power Girl. Since we had a character named Power Man, of course, that brought up the subject of the Wonder Man situation. The story I heard at the time from Stan and others was that, in the early sixties, DC had objected to Wonder Man because of Wonder Woman, and had threatened legal action if Marvel didn’t cease and desist using the word “Wonder” in character names. Wonder Woman is, and was, one of DC’s top several licensing properties (though the book never sold very well), and it makes sense that DC would fight to defend the “Wonder” franchise. The notion that their objection was based on a throwaway robot character is absurd, frankly.
You have to consider these events in the context of their respective times. During most of the sixties, DC’s parent, National Periodical Publications, was Marvel’s distributor (!) through their Independent News subsidiary. Marvel was, in some ways, under their thumb. By the time Gerry
reintroduced Wonder Man, more or less in response to Power Girl, Marvel comics were being distributed by Curtis Circulation, a subsidiary of Marvel’s parent, Cadence Industries, and Marvel was less vulnerable. Also, the relationship between the two companies had changed somewhat. During the sixties, there was a real B-to-B enmity. (I worked at DC from 1965 to 1969, by the way.) During the early-to-mid seventies, things had mellowed out some. A lot of creative types were shuttling between the two companies-verboten during the sixties, hence the many pseudonyms used in that era-the DC guys hung out at the Marvel offices after hours and we all played volleyball together in Central Park. The business people/big shot execs at both companies had
become more removed from what was happening in the comics. Marvel’s president, Jim Galton, for instance, was once asked in my presence to name six Marvel characters and couldn’t do it! DC’s big shots-except for Paul Levitz, who remember, was/is also a creative guy-were similarly out of touch. So, we creative types got away with stuff that never would have flown in the Mort Weisinger/Martin Goodman days.
By the way, my first issue of Avengers was actually # 150. Steve was routinely MONTHS late with his work, and therefore, many issues of the Avengers and other Englehart books were reprints or fill-
ins. Steve was so late with the script to issue #150 that Gerry asked me to write the dialogue for the issue overnight. (Marvel style, as most fans know, requires the penciler to draw the visuals from a plot synopsis. The writer then writes dialogue to go with the pictures.) I stayed up all night and wrote the dialogue. A couple of days later, Steve’s dialogue finally arrived, and to keep Steve from quitting, his, not mine, saw print. In my opinion, mine was better, though I was winging it without even a copy of the plot. I think Steve, who was on his way to other things, like writing novels, was phoning it in at that point. Soon thereafter, Steve quit Marvel, and stayed gone till years later when I, as Editor In Chief, hired him back.
2-At that time, after a short stint by Gerry Conway who reintroduced Wonder Man you inherited the title from long time scribe Steve Englehart and set out to create together with George Pérez some of the most memorable Avengers sagas in history. How did you approach the Avengers? What was different from your other work?
I thought of the Avengers as the All-Stars. I tried to focus on the classic characters, the ones who were stars of their own titles, and live up to the legend “Earth’s Mightiest Heroes.” Other writers, I think, found it easier to use and focus on characters that didn’t appear elsewhere, thereby avoiding continuity problems. I thought the continuity weave was part of the point. I did use characters like Tigra and, more to the point, Wonder Man, because I felt it was good to
have characters to contrast and challenge the established stars, but I wanted to make sure that the readers were getting the cream of the Marvel pantheon, and not just the characters that were more convenient for me.
3-This Wonder Man had a presence. In one of his first battles by Gerry Conway he takes charge, KO the Sub-mariner, then asks questions. He also starts claiming his fists hit as strong as Thor's hammer. This is a huge claim since Thor is the strongest team member and his hammer hits stronger than his fists. Up to the reintroduction of Wonder Man, Thor had been my favorite character. I wasn't even in high school when you started writing Avengers and I collected Avengers because Thor was part of the team. You made Wonder Man my favorite character. Forget about Thor, this guy had attitude, he wasn't a god or an alien, just a regular Joe from New Jersey
who could hit harder than Thor! WOW! I think you were creating wrestler "the Rock" back then. And that fight with the Vision was simply awesome, a guy that can resist an intangible hand thru his chest and all the arsenal of powers that the Vision has, had to be special! I think seeing him going against other heroes like the Sub-mariner and Vision and finishing on top was part of the instant appeal of this character. What was the creative process when fleshing out and re-creating this long dead character?
I spend a great deal of time trying to get into a character’s head, “role playing” the character, if you will. Wonder Man presented an interesting dichotomy. He was obviously a tough, smart guy, imbued with immense power. He understood his power, and knew he was at the top of the scale, comparable, if not superior, to the likes of Thor, the Sub-Mariner and the Hulk-hence his assertiveness and boldness from the get-go, in many situations. But, no matter how
powerful you are, it’s got to freak you out the first time you’re face-to-face with Ultron. Wonder Man had no experience that would prepare him for that. Therefore, the strongest and hardest-to-hurt man in the world hung back while Cap (who isn’t daunted by anything) stepped forward to face Ultron.
4-Wonder Man was a new/old character, a Lee/Kirby creation from a solid story that have had tremendous ramifications in the Avengers title. I mean, Simon Williams had been almost a member from the title's very beginnings, he had died but his brain architecture had been living for years (actually real publishing years, not just
Marvel years) as an Avenger in the form of the group's resident android: The Vision. Englehart built, thru his extensive tenure as writer, a romantic and complex relationship between Vision and the Scarlet Witch and suddenly you started to use the return of this character as a means to start shaking things up. The first thing you did was to establish an attraction between Simon Williams and the Scarlet Witch that many writers after
you have wanted to play with. Particularly John Byrne and Kurt Busiek. You seemed to have ended it with the Scarlet Witch being very ladylike and even though clearly attracted to Williams behave like a dutiful faithful wife and Simon act very chivalrous and control his raging hormones and try to look in another direction. What are your thoughts on these three characters, the way you played them and the way other writers have played them?
I think you said it. Too many times in comics, the characters stumble into every pitfall offered. I wanted, for once, to have a tension unrelieved, a lust and love unrequited, a chance for dishonor disdained. I thought of Simon Williams as a man of honor.
5-The Trial was one of my favorite stories from your run. It is the best example that you don’t need to have Thor, Iron Man or
Captain America in order to create a memorable Avengers story. In here you finally bring long Avengers foe and Simon Williams brother the Grim Reaper into the equation. Thru this story we see Vision discover that he is not Simon Williams and accept himself as his own man, Wanda reaffirms her love for the Vision and Simon confronts part of his past. Even though not much had been revealed from all these characters yet, their pasts, their childhood's, parents etc. you presented believable three dimensional characters and the soap opera was as interesting as the action. Is this one of
your favorite stories? How do you feel about other writers particularly Englehart's later take on this "family", the later introduction of Mrs. Williams and revelations about Sanford Williams as an abusive father in West Coast Avengers and Vision and Scarlet Witch LS?
“The Trial” was one of my better efforts, I think. I don’t remember much about the later stories you cite.
6-From this story and later treatment of the character of Wonder Man by David Michelinie I started to suspect that Simon Williams was innocent from the embezzlement charges in Avengers #9 and that he had taken the blame from his brother the Grim Reaper. Michelinie said in an interview for this site that to him Simon was innocent. Was he innocent to you as well? Was that your intention, to eventually reveal he was innocent? What do you think of Englehart making him publicly admit he was guilty during his WCA tenure as writer?
I never thought that Simon Williams actually did anything wrong. In my mind, he was shafted, ruined, and bitter over it for a while, but his later behavior suggested that he was fundamentally an honest man. I didn’t read the Englehart stories you’re referring to, but from what you indicate, I don’t think I agree with Steve’s take.
7-Another thing you established was a special friendship between the Beast & Wonder Man that later Michelinie infused with even more memorable funny situations and humor. What made you pair up those two? What do you think of Michelinie's work with them? Do you think they could be written in an ongoing series ala Power Man and Iron Fist?
I thought a comedian like the Beast would naturally gravitate to a classic straight man like Simon Williams, and vice versa. They’re also both bright and intellectual. I had fun playing them off against each other. David Michelinie did great stuff with them, things I would never think of. He’s amazing with that kind of character interplay. Sure, they could co-star in a series, if you had a Michelinie or his clone writing it.
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