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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Hot Pie

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Audrey Sep 29th 8:51 PM
I'm reading the series for the second time now. As with the first time, I flew through the first book and am doing the same with the second. I'm also catching things I didn't the first time such as Hot Pie.

Most people would think Hot Pie to be a useless little character there to add to Arya's story. I was reading the second book this afternoon where Hot Pie confesses to Arya that he didn't kill any boys. All he did was "sell my mommy's pies". Something about that line just hit me. It made me realise that Hot Pie was just a little boy caught up in terrible situation. Had Martin said "mother" instead of "mommy" I might have not felt that. Then again, it could just be my maternal instinct kicking in. Anyways, Martin seems to have a knack for describing how terrible life can be to those not privileged enough to be born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Hot Pie is a perfect example. You read the other fantasy novels and the lords and ladies are all that is concentrated on for the most part. The common person is ignored and their suffering is never really felt. Look at Jordan's "Wheel of Time". Where are the refugees? Where are the raped and tortured women? Where are the starving commoners and the roadside graves? These things are horrible but they give something to "A Song of Ice and Fire" that makes you feel.

Audrey

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 30th 1:41 AM
True enough about WoT.
RJ introduces refugees, but we almost never get a closer look, aside from Nicola and that other chick whose name eludes me for the moment.
But then, the series is already blown up enough as it is...

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 30th 7:33 AM
Good observation, Audrey. I too think one of the strengths of this series is that GRRM is not afraid to put emphasis on minor characters from "the other side of the tracks". He gives them substance and purpose, allowing the reader to see the true disparity between the classes.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 30th 8:14 AM
Audrey, that's a nice observation. I noticed the same line, only in my case it was probably my paternal instinct kicking in. And I think you're dead-on about the refugee issue as well. The peasants who complained to Ned about Gregor's depradations added an element of realism sorely lacking in most fantasy novels.

RJ just sort of seemed to ignore that all that little "detail" stuff. I suppose he was too busy writing about the embroidery on dresses. And will somebody please explain to me how an area can get no rain for over a year without massive starvation? Personally, I think Jordan invented his ridiculous Bowl of Winds because he realized that the story was progressing so slowly that he couldn't wait for the final battle to fix the weather.

Guess I wandered a bit off topit there. :)

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 30th 8:14 AM
uh, and off _topic_ as well.

doctor doom
User ID: 0345364 Sep 30th 9:06 AM
Hot Pie is one of the best characters in the story (along with poor dead Lommy Greenhands). I mean he's just some kid caught up in this whole struggle and has no stake whatsoever in the outcome. Arya is a Stark and Gentry is the bastard of Robert. What's Hot Pie? HOT PIE!

Audrey
User ID: 1878484 Sep 30th 10:07 PM
Another moment from a minor character that moved me was when Ser Hubard Rambton and his sons tried to protect their Sept in Dragonstone.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 30th 11:02 PM
I also felt pretty bad for Lady Tanda's daughter;the prostitute who bore Robert's child and was murdered by it for Cersei; the innkeeper's daughter who crossed paths with Gregor Clegne; Lady Hornwood, who chewed off her hands in hunger; that honorable man who challenged Stannis to single combat at Storm's End and was murdered in his sleep; and Tysha.

And in every section outlining Arya's storyline, there was something sad. Such as the death of the blacksmith when Roose Bolton took over Harrenhal; Gregor's persistent and random torturing of the common folk; Yoren's death; and Weasel (what ever happened to her?).

I'm glad that GRRM takes time to give us these snatches of stories; it really drives home the horrifying impact that the Game of Thrones has on people, nobility and common folk alike.

RJ doesn't seem to care about anyone who can't wield the one power or isn't ta'veren (however you spell it). I can't really discuss RJ rationally though....the thought of what has happened to his series makes me furious.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Oct 1st 7:10 AM
Great comments, Telisiane. And I believe it is the detailing of these common folk, made real and unique by GRRM's deft hand, that elevates this series from good to great. Incidentally, I've found that many of those who visit this board feel the same way you do about RJ....myself included.

Darrick Oct 1st 8:11 AM
Hi, I've never actually posted to this board before, but I've enjoyed reading people's comments for quite some time now. This is probably the best board I've seen for intelligent discussion on sci-fi/fantasy. Anyway, I wouldn't normally get involved in an RJ v. GRRM debate but I just had one point to make here on RJ's focus on his core characters rather than refugees and victims of terror.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe GRRM was ever involved in any wars or experienced some of the things I'm sure RJ saw
over in Vietnam. I've always got the feeling that, whatever other flaws he may have in his writing, RJ meant to portray an idealized world, with fairly innocent characters who can maintain some of that innocence even in the worst situations. Its hard to do this when you really get to the human cost of any war. I know RJ understands this, he just wants to go in a different direction.
It seems to me that GRRM started off painting his world in shades of gray and has only grown darker since then. I really enjoy both of their writing but to me they are intentionally coming from very different directions.
I suspect part of the reason for this might be that RJ is pretty much sick of too many gray areas: wars fought for dubious reasons, refugees, and good men dying with little to show for it. GRRM, on the other hand, is sick of trite storylines, many of the traditions of fantasy, and "teflon" heroes who manage to squeak by and save the day without being hurt or losing anything(or who go into battle without helmets on, and walk out looking as pretty as ever).
My point is that RJ might portray his characters the way he does because of his own experiences in the military and the war he fought. This wouldn't excuse bad writing(although I think he's pretty good), but I think it bears remembering when you compare him to GRRM (who's my favorite fantasy author except for Stephen R. Donaldson and Michael Moorcock). Anyway, this has dragged on for way too long already, but I just wanted to take a moment to defend old RJ.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 1st 8:54 AM
Darrick, not a bad point at all. RJ wasn't an infantryman, but I suppose he saw his share of misery. I guess the difficulty I have is that there are a lot of fiction writers with military experience who don't let it inhibit their writing.

But whatever RJ's reasons, I think Telisiane has made a great point. To me, RJ's world lacks a sense of immediacy and realism. Tolkien painted a very "black and white" world but still managed to convey the emotional reality of a war. After having staggered through however many books are in the WOT (8, I think), I find myself completely divorced emotionally from the characters. I read now only out of curiousity and a desire to know the end rather than because I care about the characters.

Just remembered some things. RJ described a very bloody battle at Dumai's Wells. Remember the bits of flesh and gore flying through the air? He was at least _attempting_ to be realistic in writing that scene. I certainly didn't note any reluctance to address the horrors of war. And he _has_ created some moral ambiguity in his story. I think the Younglings are somewhat ambiguous, for example. He's written a number of other battle scenes that at least attempt to graphically depict the reality of war. There also are a number of WOT scenes in which the suffering of the common folk because of the drought and as a result of raids is depicted.

But RJ's efforts in this regard aren't half as convincing or effective as GRRM's. So, I think its less a matter of conscious choice by RJ than the fact that he just isn't as good.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 1st 9:51 AM
Jeff;

The Younglings are morally ambiguous? I must have missed that...
_Misguided_, sure - especially considering what kind of leader they have, but I don't see the ambiguity.

If there were an ambiguity in WoT, I'd say it was the Whitecloaks, or the Asha'man, or the Aes Sedai. The Younglings are just a bunch of young buffoons running around without much of a clue at all.

Darrick Oct 1st 9:57 AM
That's a good point Jeff. I had Dumai Wells in the back of my head as I was writing my post and I realized it contradicts my own point to a certain extent. However, in my post I was mostly addressing the criticism above that RJ focuses on Ta'veren and channelers to the exclusion of the average joe. I don't see his military experience as inhibiting his writing but as causing him to hesitate in going to the same lengths that GRRM did to show that he means business. RJ does use violence and suffering to further his story, but in many cases he does avoid being too brutal in his imagery. You can argue this is due to poor writing or a concious decision, I would pick the latter.

I tried to make clear in my post that this was probably a concious choice in order to have characters who can still indulge in the kind of innocent little antics that RJ seems fond of. His characters might not be realistic, but then neither is Arya(even though she is my favorite). IMHO RJ picked his Ta'veren and channelers to write about in order to control the viewpoint of his story and keep it lighter and less "no holds barred" than the Song of Ice and Fire. After all, WOT is about the literal end of the world, even the Others won't be able to destroy Time (I think). And channeling adds a whole other dynamic since it makes the presence of "magic" so much stronger in WOT than in ASOIAF. Both of these things would naturally make you identify more with GRRM's characters since they are in so much more danger than the WOT characters.

This is why I like Robert Jordan more for the world and history he created, and GRRM more for the characters and their constant peril. I suspect that the choice was intentional based on the authors' backgrounds, but you also make a good point for RJ just being completely ass-backward and lost in his own plot. I suspect I'll only be able to form a final opinion after both series finish up. Now its back to work for me, maybe next time I'll actually post something about Hot Pie on the Hot Pie board!

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 1st 10:44 AM
Kay-Arne, I agree with your assessment of the Younglings so perhaps I wasn't clear as to the point I was trying to make. The Younglings aren't really "good" or "bad". Based upon the facts as they believe them to be, their actions are morally correct. So that's the type of ambiguity I was speaking of. Its hard to classify them as being either good or bad. Your example of the Aes Sedai perhaps illustrates my point better anyway.

Darrick, you may be right. I guess there's no real way to know at this stage. I've just gotten so frustrated with RJ that I find it difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt on anything.

Audrey
User ID: 1878484 Oct 1st 11:07 AM
I have to agree with Darrick that Arya is probably the least realistic character in the books. She's quite small and young yet manages to survive like an adult, as well as think like one.

As for the battles, well, I can't really get too far into that. It's been a while since I read the Wheel of Time books now. I can remember thinking, however, that the battle scenes were rather mushy and tended to solely concentrate on the commanders rather then what was really going on. I find that Martin has shorter battle scenes then Jordan for the most part. He has none of the characters talking nonsense about how they are going to kill this other character.

The best battle scene in Martin's book, I think, is when Catelyn is hearing the sounds of battle from the Whispering Wood.

Emily
User ID: 0296604 Oct 1st 12:08 PM
KAH - the Whitecloaks aren't ambiguous! They're just plain EEEEEEVIL.

Audrey - there are a couple of times when Arya behaves like a stuipd kid. Her first two choices of victims, for instance.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 1st 1:15 PM
*sigh*. I agree with Emily. On both counts.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Oct 1st 1:16 PM

Darrick, Audrey, Arya isn't unrealistic. There is that film of Tarkovsky's, about a military scout during WWII, who is of Arya's age or even younger. It is called "Ivan's childhood" and is based on true events. Nor was it a solitary case.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 1st 2:14 PM
I'm siding with labor on this. Arya seems to behaving the right mental age given circumstances.
She makes stupid choices, and sometimes she makes very childlike leaps of logic which just happen to work out.

Certainly, her interactions with Gendry, Yoren, Hot Pie, etc. have a distinct level of childishness.

Audrey
User ID: 1878484 Oct 1st 2:20 PM
Arya is a very small girl who is able to kill full grown men. That doesn't seem realistic to me.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Audrey	Sep 29th 8:51 PM I'm reading the series for the second time now. As with the first time, I flew through the first book and am doing the same with the second. I'm also catching things I didn't the first time such as Hot Pie. Most people would think Hot Pie to be a useless little character there to add to Arya's story. I was reading the second book this afternoon where Hot Pie confesses to Arya that he didn't kill any boys. All he did was "sell my mommy's pies". Something about that line just hit me. It made me realise that Hot Pie was just a little boy caught up in terrible situation. Had Martin said "mother" instead of "mommy" I might have not felt that. Then again, it could just be my maternal instinct kicking in. Anyways, Martin seems to have a knack for describing how terrible life can be to those not privileged enough to be born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Hot Pie is a perfect example. You read the other fantasy novels and the lords and ladies are all that is concentrated on for the most part. The common person is ignored and their suffering is never really felt. Look at Jordan's "Wheel of Time". Where are the refugees? Where are the raped and tortured women? Where are the starving commoners and the roadside graves? These things are horrible but they give something to "A Song of Ice and Fire" that makes you feel. Audrey
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 30th 1:41 AM True enough about WoT. RJ introduces refugees, but we almost never get a closer look, aside from Nicola and that other chick whose name eludes me for the moment. But then, the series is already blown up enough as it is...
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 30th 7:33 AM Good observation, Audrey. I too think one of the strengths of this series is that GRRM is not afraid to put emphasis on minor characters from "the other side of the tracks". He gives them substance and purpose, allowing the reader to see the true disparity between the classes.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 30th 8:14 AM Audrey, that's a nice observation. I noticed the same line, only in my case it was probably my paternal instinct kicking in. And I think you're dead-on about the refugee issue as well. The peasants who complained to Ned about Gregor's depradations added an element of realism sorely lacking in most fantasy novels. RJ just sort of seemed to ignore that all that little "detail" stuff. I suppose he was too busy writing about the embroidery on dresses. And will somebody please explain to me how an area can get no rain for over a year without massive starvation? Personally, I think Jordan invented his ridiculous Bowl of Winds because he realized that the story was progressing so slowly that he couldn't wait for the final battle to fix the weather. Guess I wandered a bit off topit there. :)
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 30th 8:14 AM uh, and off _topic_ as well.
doctor doom User ID: 0345364	Sep 30th 9:06 AM Hot Pie is one of the best characters in the story (along with poor dead Lommy Greenhands). I mean he's just some kid caught up in this whole struggle and has no stake whatsoever in the outcome. Arya is a Stark and Gentry is the bastard of Robert. What's Hot Pie? HOT PIE!
Audrey User ID: 1878484	Sep 30th 10:07 PM Another moment from a minor character that moved me was when Ser Hubard Rambton and his sons tried to protect their Sept in Dragonstone.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 30th 11:02 PM I also felt pretty bad for Lady Tanda's daughter;the prostitute who bore Robert's child and was murdered by it for Cersei; the innkeeper's daughter who crossed paths with Gregor Clegne; Lady Hornwood, who chewed off her hands in hunger; that honorable man who challenged Stannis to single combat at Storm's End and was murdered in his sleep; and Tysha. And in every section outlining Arya's storyline, there was something sad. Such as the death of the blacksmith when Roose Bolton took over Harrenhal; Gregor's persistent and random torturing of the common folk; Yoren's death; and Weasel (what ever happened to her?). I'm glad that GRRM takes time to give us these snatches of stories; it really drives home the horrifying impact that the Game of Thrones has on people, nobility and common folk alike. RJ doesn't seem to care about anyone who can't wield the one power or isn't ta'veren (however you spell it). I can't really discuss RJ rationally though....the thought of what has happened to his series makes me furious.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Oct 1st 7:10 AM Great comments, Telisiane. And I believe it is the detailing of these common folk, made real and unique by GRRM's deft hand, that elevates this series from good to great. Incidentally, I've found that many of those who visit this board feel the same way you do about RJ....myself included.
Darrick	Oct 1st 8:11 AM Hi, I've never actually posted to this board before, but I've enjoyed reading people's comments for quite some time now. This is probably the best board I've seen for intelligent discussion on sci-fi/fantasy. Anyway, I wouldn't normally get involved in an RJ v. GRRM debate but I just had one point to make here on RJ's focus on his core characters rather than refugees and victims of terror. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe GRRM was ever involved in any wars or experienced some of the things I'm sure RJ saw over in Vietnam. I've always got the feeling that, whatever other flaws he may have in his writing, RJ meant to portray an idealized world, with fairly innocent characters who can maintain some of that innocence even in the worst situations. Its hard to do this when you really get to the human cost of any war. I know RJ understands this, he just wants to go in a different direction. It seems to me that GRRM started off painting his world in shades of gray and has only grown darker since then. I really enjoy both of their writing but to me they are intentionally coming from very different directions. I suspect part of the reason for this might be that RJ is pretty much sick of too many gray areas: wars fought for dubious reasons, refugees, and good men dying with little to show for it. GRRM, on the other hand, is sick of trite storylines, many of the traditions of fantasy, and "teflon" heroes who manage to squeak by and save the day without being hurt or losing anything(or who go into battle without helmets on, and walk out looking as pretty as ever). My point is that RJ might portray his characters the way he does because of his own experiences in the military and the war he fought. This wouldn't excuse bad writing(although I think he's pretty good), but I think it bears remembering when you compare him to GRRM (who's my favorite fantasy author except for Stephen R. Donaldson and Michael Moorcock). Anyway, this has dragged on for way too long already, but I just wanted to take a moment to defend old RJ.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 1st 8:54 AM Darrick, not a bad point at all. RJ wasn't an infantryman, but I suppose he saw his share of misery. I guess the difficulty I have is that there are a lot of fiction writers with military experience who don't let it inhibit their writing. But whatever RJ's reasons, I think Telisiane has made a great point. To me, RJ's world lacks a sense of immediacy and realism. Tolkien painted a very "black and white" world but still managed to convey the emotional reality of a war. After having staggered through however many books are in the WOT (8, I think), I find myself completely divorced emotionally from the characters. I read now only out of curiousity and a desire to know the end rather than because I care about the characters. Just remembered some things. RJ described a very bloody battle at Dumai's Wells. Remember the bits of flesh and gore flying through the air? He was at least _attempting_ to be realistic in writing that scene. I certainly didn't note any reluctance to address the horrors of war. And he _has_ created some moral ambiguity in his story. I think the Younglings are somewhat ambiguous, for example. He's written a number of other battle scenes that at least attempt to graphically depict the reality of war. There also are a number of WOT scenes in which the suffering of the common folk because of the drought and as a result of raids is depicted. But RJ's efforts in this regard aren't half as convincing or effective as GRRM's. So, I think its less a matter of conscious choice by RJ than the fact that he just isn't as good.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 1st 9:51 AM Jeff; The Younglings are morally ambiguous? I must have missed that... _Misguided_, sure - especially considering what kind of leader they have, but I don't see the ambiguity. If there were an ambiguity in WoT, I'd say it was the Whitecloaks, or the Asha'man, or the Aes Sedai. The Younglings are just a bunch of young buffoons running around without much of a clue at all.
Darrick	Oct 1st 9:57 AM That's a good point Jeff. I had Dumai Wells in the back of my head as I was writing my post and I realized it contradicts my own point to a certain extent. However, in my post I was mostly addressing the criticism above that RJ focuses on Ta'veren and channelers to the exclusion of the average joe. I don't see his military experience as inhibiting his writing but as causing him to hesitate in going to the same lengths that GRRM did to show that he means business. RJ does use violence and suffering to further his story, but in many cases he does avoid being too brutal in his imagery. You can argue this is due to poor writing or a concious decision, I would pick the latter. I tried to make clear in my post that this was probably a concious choice in order to have characters who can still indulge in the kind of innocent little antics that RJ seems fond of. His characters might not be realistic, but then neither is Arya(even though she is my favorite). IMHO RJ picked his Ta'veren and channelers to write about in order to control the viewpoint of his story and keep it lighter and less "no holds barred" than the Song of Ice and Fire. After all, WOT is about the literal end of the world, even the Others won't be able to destroy Time (I think). And channeling adds a whole other dynamic since it makes the presence of "magic" so much stronger in WOT than in ASOIAF. Both of these things would naturally make you identify more with GRRM's characters since they are in so much more danger than the WOT characters. This is why I like Robert Jordan more for the world and history he created, and GRRM more for the characters and their constant peril. I suspect that the choice was intentional based on the authors' backgrounds, but you also make a good point for RJ just being completely ass-backward and lost in his own plot. I suspect I'll only be able to form a final opinion after both series finish up. Now its back to work for me, maybe next time I'll actually post something about Hot Pie on the Hot Pie board!
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 1st 10:44 AM Kay-Arne, I agree with your assessment of the Younglings so perhaps I wasn't clear as to the point I was trying to make. The Younglings aren't really "good" or "bad". Based upon the facts as they believe them to be, their actions are morally correct. So that's the type of ambiguity I was speaking of. Its hard to classify them as being either good or bad. Your example of the Aes Sedai perhaps illustrates my point better anyway. Darrick, you may be right. I guess there's no real way to know at this stage. I've just gotten so frustrated with RJ that I find it difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt on anything.
Audrey User ID: 1878484	Oct 1st 11:07 AM I have to agree with Darrick that Arya is probably the least realistic character in the books. She's quite small and young yet manages to survive like an adult, as well as think like one. As for the battles, well, I can't really get too far into that. It's been a while since I read the Wheel of Time books now. I can remember thinking, however, that the battle scenes were rather mushy and tended to solely concentrate on the commanders rather then what was really going on. I find that Martin has shorter battle scenes then Jordan for the most part. He has none of the characters talking nonsense about how they are going to kill this other character. The best battle scene in Martin's book, I think, is when Catelyn is hearing the sounds of battle from the Whispering Wood.
Emily User ID: 0296604	Oct 1st 12:08 PM KAH - the Whitecloaks aren't ambiguous! They're just plain EEEEEEVIL. Audrey - there are a couple of times when Arya behaves like a stuipd kid. Her first two choices of victims, for instance.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 1st 1:15 PM sigh. I agree with Emily. On both counts.
labor User ID: 8479113	Oct 1st 1:16 PM Darrick, Audrey, Arya isn't unrealistic. There is that film of Tarkovsky's, about a military scout during WWII, who is of Arya's age or even younger. It is called "Ivan's childhood" and is based on true events. Nor was it a solitary case.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 1st 2:14 PM I'm siding with labor on this. Arya seems to behaving the right mental age given circumstances. She makes stupid choices, and sometimes she makes very childlike leaps of logic which just happen to work out. Certainly, her interactions with Gendry, Yoren, Hot Pie, etc. have a distinct level of childishness.
Audrey User ID: 1878484	Oct 1st 2:20 PM Arya is a very small girl who is able to kill full grown men. That doesn't seem realistic to me.