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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Sandor Coward?

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Lord Fool
User ID: 2700404 May 4th 9:02 PM
The question is whetehr or not Sandor was acting like a coward at the battle of KIngs Landing. I have three reason why not

1)Sandors fear of fire. It is probalily the main reason why he didnt go out agian but that is to be expected. You dont have some one pick you up who has had there whole family die in a car accident while they were in it. Its just plain silly.

2)What did he lose when he left. The respect of people. it is obvious that he doesnt care what other people think of him as long as they are afriad. His loyality, the only reason that he was there was that cersei was paying huge amounts of money to protect her kid.

3)When he say what was going on he knew that it was a losing battle. Being valent just isnt Sandors stlye i think his leaving fits into his personality perfectly. He was always in it for himself and no one else so when he decided to leave he did.

Discuss discuss

Ami
User ID: 2742064 May 4th 10:50 PM
Lord Fool, I don't think it's intended for the reader to think Sandor a coward, but I'll bet dimes to dollars that in the next book that's the first thing we're going to read about him. Joff, Cersei, the knights of the kings guard, the soldiers the fought w/him and then Tyrion, etc, are all going to deem him a coward. He disappeared from that battlefield at their darkest hour and then probably fought his way out of Maegor's Holdfast. You bet their going to call him a coward.

Based on a chat or something I read in SoSpakeMartin, GRRM said that the Hound has _a_ or some big scene(s) coming up in SoS, I believe he's going to be one of the four trials.

I, also, believe he's meant to eventually do something valiant, or chivilarous (sp?) to be redeemed, whether thru death, as Min has mentioned before, or to earn that cloak back. (I'm still so enamoured w/that theory that haaruk's friend came up with, where Sansa is somehow Queen and drapes that cloak around his shoulders later on... *sigh* I'm not holding my breath, tho')

But you're right, LF, he's not valiant now and IMO he had to get away from the Lannisters before he can become more than he is...
...the dog will have his day
;)

Brady
User ID: 0721754 May 5th 4:15 AM
Sandor did abandon Sansa, he left her there in the hands of the enemy. That is cowardice.
And he ran down an unarmed 14 year old boy in GoT

KAH
User ID: 0541004 May 5th 7:18 AM
Well, to be fair, Sandor did say he'd take Sansa with him.
And riding down a 14 year old is not cowardice, it is cruelty.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 5th 7:42 AM
I think its me, not Min, who thinks that the murderous scumbag needs to die in order to redeem himself. Min loves him just the way he is. :-)

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 5th 8:53 AM
I think its me, not Jeff or Min, who initiated that theory. Jeff loves him just the way he is :)

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 5th 9:12 AM
I think Sandor should be given the ole Kent State treatment.

Padraig
User ID: 8590713 May 5th 1:47 PM
I thought Sandor was afraid to go out into the battle again. I believed that fear made him the weepy guy he was in that last Sansa chapter. It was probably was the first time he felt like that since Gregor decided to roast his face.

Still far braver than most people in aSoIaF but he did run away because of cowardice in aCoK.

daremo
User ID: 2623374 May 5th 2:21 PM
I have to disagree with demanding Sandor's head. He is really the only enemy fighter that has any personality. Sure it's not nice and he has issues but, that just makes him more interesting to me. I do not think that GRRM would have devloped him as much as he has if he did not have plans for him.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 5th 3:17 PM
daremo, good point. But even more interesting to me than GRRM's development of Sandor the individual is his development of Sandor's "relationship" with Sansa. I'd hate to see that fall by the wayside before it evolves at least a little further. Personally, I feel their relationship (and I don't think it will ever be a romantic sort of realtionship) is one of the more interesting aspects of the story.

daremo
User ID: 2623374 May 5th 3:47 PM
I agree with you Ser Gary. One thing that I have always thought since Lady was executed was that the if you do not have a wolf, the hound could be a darn good replacement. I also do not think it will develope into a romantic relationship but, more of a protector role. Maybe one of the trials involves Sandor's "betrayal" of Jeffrey for Sansa. Just a thought.

Lord Fool
User ID: 2700404 May 5th 4:17 PM
I really doubt that sandor is going to die anytime soon due to the fact that Grrm is making him a some what major character. Now it could be that Sandor does come back to KL and arrives just in time to save Sansa when she finnally decides to to show herself the door.

Clay
User ID: 2316924 May 5th 4:55 PM
I am fairly sure Sandor will save Sansa in one way or another but I dont know where he would go next. Sandor just doesnt seem like an overly independent person. He seemed to like the name dog, and I think he would try to find a new master, but who?
I dont know that Robb or any other major house would take him in. Maybe Dany? Or maybe after he has saved Sansa he will take the bump, as mentioned earlier.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 May 5th 9:37 PM
he did ask Sansa to come with him, but he still left her there.
Running down a 14 year old boy is cruelty and callousness worthy of Sandors brother.
Sandor may redeem himself by saving Sansa but I still dont like him and I hope he pays for his crimes

Rughead
User ID: 0415304 May 5th 10:25 PM
Prior to the fires, Sandor had been fighting aggressively in the Battle of KL, even riding his horse up a plank to fight aboard a ship.

The fires completely spooked him and he was made to look a coward by Tyrion. It was the fear of fire, not battle fatigue, since he was willing to fight at the gate, and said so.

He will be reviled as a coward and deserter by the Lannisters in the next few chapters, that seems obvious.

GRRM has given him depth but all you see is an empty viscious barbarian with no values except loyalty. The "depth" given the Lannisters (except Tyrion) is all a deep emptiness.

He'll die ugly, perhaps developing true nobility before he perishes on behalf of Sansa.

Lord Fool
User ID: 9607473 May 6th 1:36 AM
who is to say that he will die? I mean couldnt he redeme himself by saving her and the he also gets a new master?

haaruk May 6th 8:36 AM
Sandor not facing the fires was an issue of cowardice only as far as you can consider someone who has a pronounced phobia to be a coward. Individuals with phobias are not medically considered cowards. Fear of heights. Enclosed spaces. Flying. Spiders. Fire, etc.

Jeff, your attitude of giving Sandor the "Kent State treatment" where armed guardsmen murdered 4 defenseless students, one who was watching and another a member of the ROTC is interesting. It means you are no better than Sandor whom you believe killed an unarmed 14 year old butcher boy.

Markus
User ID: 3919194 May 6th 8:52 AM
I think there isn't really anything which should let us seriously doubt that Sandor did indeed kill Mycah.

I mean, we speak about a guy who admits he has killed women and chidren, and has enjoyed it.

haaruk May 6th 11:24 AM
Marcus, the 'us' in your post does not include 'me'. The evidence is compelling yet completely circumstantial. I reserve the right to consider the options.

Markus
User ID: 3919194 May 6th 11:50 AM
Well, it's not conclusive, yes, but I cannot but think that what evidence we _have_ about the incident in question and Sandor in general doesn't leave much room or reason for doubt.

Not everything has to be spelled out, after all.;)

Anyway, I think it's really irrevelant if he has killed one child more or less (well, perhaps not in Arya's mind). The point is Sandor likes to kill, and has killed people who had to be undeserving of such a fate and were incapable of defending themselves against him.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Lord Fool User ID: 2700404	May 4th 9:02 PM The question is whetehr or not Sandor was acting like a coward at the battle of KIngs Landing. I have three reason why not 1)Sandors fear of fire. It is probalily the main reason why he didnt go out agian but that is to be expected. You dont have some one pick you up who has had there whole family die in a car accident while they were in it. Its just plain silly. 2)What did he lose when he left. The respect of people. it is obvious that he doesnt care what other people think of him as long as they are afriad. His loyality, the only reason that he was there was that cersei was paying huge amounts of money to protect her kid. 3)When he say what was going on he knew that it was a losing battle. Being valent just isnt Sandors stlye i think his leaving fits into his personality perfectly. He was always in it for himself and no one else so when he decided to leave he did. Discuss discuss
Ami User ID: 2742064	May 4th 10:50 PM Lord Fool, I don't think it's intended for the reader to think Sandor a coward, but I'll bet dimes to dollars that in the next book that's the first thing we're going to read about him. Joff, Cersei, the knights of the kings guard, the soldiers the fought w/him and then Tyrion, etc, are all going to deem him a coward. He disappeared from that battlefield at their darkest hour and then probably fought his way out of Maegor's Holdfast. You bet their going to call him a coward. Based on a chat or something I read in SoSpakeMartin, GRRM said that the Hound has _a_ or some big scene(s) coming up in SoS, I believe he's going to be one of the four trials. I, also, believe he's meant to eventually do something valiant, or chivilarous (sp?) to be redeemed, whether thru death, as Min has mentioned before, or to earn that cloak back. (I'm still so enamoured w/that theory that haaruk's friend came up with, where Sansa is somehow Queen and drapes that cloak around his shoulders later on... sigh I'm not holding my breath, tho') But you're right, LF, he's not valiant now and IMO he had to get away from the Lannisters before he can become more than he is... ...the dog will have his day ;)
Brady User ID: 0721754	May 5th 4:15 AM Sandor did abandon Sansa, he left her there in the hands of the enemy. That is cowardice. And he ran down an unarmed 14 year old boy in GoT
KAH User ID: 0541004	May 5th 7:18 AM Well, to be fair, Sandor did say he'd take Sansa with him. And riding down a 14 year old is not cowardice, it is cruelty.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 5th 7:42 AM I think its me, not Min, who thinks that the murderous scumbag needs to die in order to redeem himself. Min loves him just the way he is. :-)
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 5th 8:53 AM I think its me, not Jeff or Min, who initiated that theory. Jeff loves him just the way he is :)
Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 5th 9:12 AM I think Sandor should be given the ole Kent State treatment.
Padraig User ID: 8590713	May 5th 1:47 PM I thought Sandor was afraid to go out into the battle again. I believed that fear made him the weepy guy he was in that last Sansa chapter. It was probably was the first time he felt like that since Gregor decided to roast his face. Still far braver than most people in aSoIaF but he did run away because of cowardice in aCoK.
daremo User ID: 2623374	May 5th 2:21 PM I have to disagree with demanding Sandor's head. He is really the only enemy fighter that has any personality. Sure it's not nice and he has issues but, that just makes him more interesting to me. I do not think that GRRM would have devloped him as much as he has if he did not have plans for him.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 5th 3:17 PM daremo, good point. But even more interesting to me than GRRM's development of Sandor the individual is his development of Sandor's "relationship" with Sansa. I'd hate to see that fall by the wayside before it evolves at least a little further. Personally, I feel their relationship (and I don't think it will ever be a romantic sort of realtionship) is one of the more interesting aspects of the story.
daremo User ID: 2623374	May 5th 3:47 PM I agree with you Ser Gary. One thing that I have always thought since Lady was executed was that the if you do not have a wolf, the hound could be a darn good replacement. I also do not think it will develope into a romantic relationship but, more of a protector role. Maybe one of the trials involves Sandor's "betrayal" of Jeffrey for Sansa. Just a thought.
Lord Fool User ID: 2700404	May 5th 4:17 PM I really doubt that sandor is going to die anytime soon due to the fact that Grrm is making him a some what major character. Now it could be that Sandor does come back to KL and arrives just in time to save Sansa when she finnally decides to to show herself the door.
Clay User ID: 2316924	May 5th 4:55 PM I am fairly sure Sandor will save Sansa in one way or another but I dont know where he would go next. Sandor just doesnt seem like an overly independent person. He seemed to like the name dog, and I think he would try to find a new master, but who? I dont know that Robb or any other major house would take him in. Maybe Dany? Or maybe after he has saved Sansa he will take the bump, as mentioned earlier.
Brady User ID: 0721754	May 5th 9:37 PM he did ask Sansa to come with him, but he still left her there. Running down a 14 year old boy is cruelty and callousness worthy of Sandors brother. Sandor may redeem himself by saving Sansa but I still dont like him and I hope he pays for his crimes
Rughead User ID: 0415304	May 5th 10:25 PM Prior to the fires, Sandor had been fighting aggressively in the Battle of KL, even riding his horse up a plank to fight aboard a ship. The fires completely spooked him and he was made to look a coward by Tyrion. It was the fear of fire, not battle fatigue, since he was willing to fight at the gate, and said so. He will be reviled as a coward and deserter by the Lannisters in the next few chapters, that seems obvious. GRRM has given him depth but all you see is an empty viscious barbarian with no values except loyalty. The "depth" given the Lannisters (except Tyrion) is all a deep emptiness. He'll die ugly, perhaps developing true nobility before he perishes on behalf of Sansa.
Lord Fool User ID: 9607473	May 6th 1:36 AM who is to say that he will die? I mean couldnt he redeme himself by saving her and the he also gets a new master?
haaruk	May 6th 8:36 AM Sandor not facing the fires was an issue of cowardice only as far as you can consider someone who has a pronounced phobia to be a coward. Individuals with phobias are not medically considered cowards. Fear of heights. Enclosed spaces. Flying. Spiders. Fire, etc. Jeff, your attitude of giving Sandor the "Kent State treatment" where armed guardsmen murdered 4 defenseless students, one who was watching and another a member of the ROTC is interesting. It means you are no better than Sandor whom you believe killed an unarmed 14 year old butcher boy.
Markus User ID: 3919194	May 6th 8:52 AM I think there isn't really anything which should let us seriously doubt that Sandor did indeed kill Mycah. I mean, we speak about a guy who admits he has killed women and chidren, and has enjoyed it.
haaruk	May 6th 11:24 AM Marcus, the 'us' in your post does not include 'me'. The evidence is compelling yet completely circumstantial. I reserve the right to consider the options.
Markus User ID: 3919194	May 6th 11:50 AM Well, it's not conclusive, yes, but I cannot but think that what evidence we _have_ about the incident in question and Sandor in general doesn't leave much room or reason for doubt. Not everything has to be spelled out, after all.;) Anyway, I think it's really irrevelant if he has killed one child more or less (well, perhaps not in Arya's mind). The point is Sandor likes to kill, and has killed people who had to be undeserving of such a fate and were incapable of defending themselves against him.