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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jon's mother?

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Vanryker
User ID: 1300074 Jan 19th 1:15 PM
Does anyone really know or speculate on who Jon's mother was and what happened to Benjen Stark?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 19th 1:32 PM
Many, many times. :) Sulthon has a good synopsis of the major theory on his ASoIaF FAQ. You can find the specific bit at:

http://web2.airmail.net/sulthon/faq.htm#c3

There are one or three other theories (from the mundane, 'Eddard was telling the truth, some peasant girl named Wylla is Jon's mother' to some more complex ones which I couldn't do justice to.)

As to Benjen, sure, several ideas batted about on that one. Some think he's with the Children, others think he's with Mance Rayder, others figure he's out there alone, there's the looney idea that he _is_ Mance Rayder (sort of a Dread Pirate Roberts thing), and a couple of folk think he's just dead.

I

Sisyphus
User ID: 8708523 Jan 19th 9:40 PM
This is my first post to this board, however, I believe I have a fairly plausible theory on Jon Snow's mother. If you re-read AGOT, (A Game of Thrones), you'll see Ned troubled by dreams of his sister (Lyanna) pleading Ned to promise something. Ned states that this was for her to be buried with the family. However, I believe that she was begging Ned to take her new-born son (Jon Snow) with her so that he would not be killed. See, Robert Baratheon stated that Lyanna had been raped by Rhaegar many times, and Robert was dead set on killing all Targaryens. If Robert had known that Lyanna had birthed a Targaryen spawn, he would have probably killed it in a jealous rage. I have a few points I feel back this up.

1. Ned Stark was impeccable about his honor, and quashed all conversation about the possibility of Jon's "mother."
2. Jon is the only sibling to look like the Starks. All others take after Catelyn's Tully blood. This is similar to Robert's bastards all having black hair, proof (in a Mideval sense) that Jaime and Cersei were having an incestous affair. The reason why Jon looks like a Stark is because he has Lyanna's blood and Rhaegar's...
3. It would make a fitting plot device since someone is going to have to fight Dany Targaryen and her dragons. Who else but another living Targaryen?

Zer0hour
User ID: 1432154 Jan 20th 1:12 AM
Welcome to the board, Sisyphus!

Your theories on Rhaegar and Lyanna are sound, as the majority of us (not me) figured they are Jon's parents as well. There have been numerous discussions on the many boards out there on this, and has been most likely the most-talked-about topic. I try not to think about it, for now excepting Jon Snow is Eddard's bastard, with doubts flying through the air. When GRRM wants us to know for certain, he will tell us then.

And about someone _having_ to fight Dany at the end...what if she and the dragons were the good guys? One never can tell her the good-guys and bad-guys are going to be with GRRM, as he likes to write his characters in "shades of grey."

Padraig
User ID: 9363883 Jan 20th 1:11 PM
Hi Sisyphus!

You've very likely hit a bullseye by the way.

Terry
User ID: 0909594 Mar 20th 0:31 AM
Sisyphus has a fantastic theory there. But help me out -- does that work with the timeline set? Ned went off to battle and returned with Jon Snow as a babe. Wasn't Lyanna dead by then?

tyler
User ID: 9377263 Mar 20th 3:28 AM
No, she died at the tower of joy in Dorne, after the war was pretty much over.Also Sisyphus is forgetting that Arrya looks like a Stark not a Tully. Also from what i get Lyanna was probably in love with Rheagar, and what Robert said about her being raped was just him dealing with her not returning his love.

Padraig
User ID: 2560524 Mar 20th 1:04 PM
I wouldn't be that surprised if Robert doesn't know that Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar. I don't remember any hint from anyone but Ned that this was the case. Its the kind of thing that would be mentioned if it was common knowledge. Cersei been a good example of who would take full advantage of that knowledge.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 20th 1:41 PM
Good point, Padraig. Dekving in a little furter. Who would have knowledge? Besides Howland Reed (sp)? More to the point, does Benjen Stark know? I have heard other people say that could be the reason that he took the black. for what ever reason. As to the original, I am firmly in the corner of the belief that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and that it became a Romeo and Juliet tragedy.

tyler
User ID: 9377263 Mar 20th 1:45 PM
Thats why it hurt so much when Ned died, he kept having all these cool flashbacks, that involved my favorite charaters Rhaegar and Authur Dayne

Thorfinn
User ID: 9906923 Mar 20th 1:56 PM
I know this may be silly but, could Lynna and Benjien be Jon's parents? Where was Benjein at the possible time Jon was concieved. Maybe Rheagar loved her and took her away so, no one would know of the thing she and her brother did. Rheagar married her to protect the child and Benjein if he was already at the wall. Or Benjein went to the wall because of his and Lynna's actions. Targaryens definately do the in family thing but, does anyone else do it? I know Lannisters kinda do it (or Tywin did). I just want to cover some more bases/possibilities. I still think Jon is Targaryen and Stark mix.

Snake
User ID: 0317884 Mar 21st 11:04 AM
I can believe that Jon belongs to Lyanna. I can even believe that she was smitten by Rhaegar. But, I don't believe that Rhaegar loved her. Just another possession for the Targaryens. He kidnapped her, for Lyanna would not dishonor her House. In fact, he probably kidnapped her because she wouldn't go with him. She probably woke the dragon, since Rhaegar was used to getting his own way, no doubt.

Padraig
User ID: 9265663 Mar 21st 1:37 PM
I had this nice idea Trebla that Benjen was with Ned at Starfall as a squire. But someone (Ran?, KAH?) pointed out that a Stark always sits at Winterfell. Thus Benjen in all likelihood was there during the war.

Also IIRC we don't know how old Bran is. Lyanna was roughly 15, Ned 20 when the war began. I know these ages are incorrect but nevermind. So is Bran younger or older than Lyanna?

Thorfinn, you are suggesting that Benjen, Rhaegar and Robert were all in love with Lyanna at the same time and were willing to sacrifice a lot to be with her? Wow.

Snake I disagree. If Lyanna was not betrothed and Rhaegar wasn't married then you may have a point. But as a nobleman he would expect Lyanna to behave like her position demands. Thus expecting her to throw herself into his arms because he looked in her direction would be ridiculous. There is no hint he is that much a cad. I think there had to be something more to their relationship to make him disregard all normal rules.

tyler
User ID: 9377263 Mar 22nd 2:41 AM
Yeah Snake, at one point Ned is even thinking that he doubted Rhaegar ever visited brothels, which makes me think that Ned thought Rhaegar mostly hononable in that regard. Now you might say what about his wife, but once again you have to rember it was more than likely a political marrige, and his true love was Lyanna, who he couldnt have

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Mar 22nd 6:54 AM
I like your point on Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar, Tyler, I think it's important.

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped. A big missing link here is the events surrounding Lyanna's "departure" w/ Rhaegar, we just don't know.

There are clues, however. Dany recalls the story of her brother (Rhaegar) "dying at the Trident for the women he loved" IIRC. That would posit, at least from the Targaryen point of view, that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. I doubt he was fighting for Elia when he met Robert at the Ruby Ford.

So Lyanna left in the company of Rhaegar, one way or the other. Perhaps if Brandon and his company would have gone straight to Rhaegar there could have been some act of knight errantry between them and the conflict would have remained personal. Instead he went straight to Aerys the "Mad King" to accuse Rhaegar. Brandon, his father Rickard, and many other important gentry from the North and the Vale died in their attempt to bring Rhaegar to justice. Coupled with Robert's jealous fury it was enough to start a civil war.

After the war ended, and the siege at Storm's End was lifted, which was a little over a year after the war started IIRC, Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys were dead, Eddard and his six companions faced the the three kingsguard at the "Tower of Joy" near the mountains of Dorne. Why would three of the Kingsguard be so far away from the king? Only if they were protecting one of the Royal family, right?

Eddard found Lyanna in her bed of blood in that tower, she made him promise something, and then she died. The Crannogman, Howland Reed, found Eddard there holding her hand. Eddard pulled the tower down after that. Howland and Eddard were the only ones to return from that conflict, and now Eddard is gone.

Howland is our key to the truth, only he knows what Lyanna made Eddard promise before she died. So I eagerly await his appearance.

Snake
User ID: 0317884 Mar 23rd 10:28 AM
Ned doubted that Rhaegar vivited brothels, true. But, was that because of his honor or because of his pride. As you all know Targaryens rarely mix with those of common blood. He probably thought one of royal blood should mix with whores. Why else did it take so long for him to find a wife? Hell, they had Robert's father out searching the land for a suitable bride while Rhaegar no doubt was waiting for one that was suitable to marry the dragon.

Plus, he shamed his wife in front of everyone at Harrenal. Where was his honor then? I think he wanted his beauty prize and took it, the rest be damned.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 23rd 11:47 AM
Benjen- Brandon didn't know that Rhaegar wasn't at King's Landing. Jamie remembers Brandon entering the Red Keep and shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die. As far as Rhaegar, I wonder if Lyanna had told him that she did not want to marry the philandering Robert and he made the decision to take her to Dorne. THe Hedge Knight story went a long way to paint the Targayens in a better light. Love may have made Rhaegar run off with Lyanna. But then honor would have made him leave her to go and protect his family from the rebellion. Also, could he have stayed with Lyanna after hearing what hisfather had done to Brandon and Lord Rickard?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Mar 23rd 12:37 PM
Good points guys.

Snake - Rhaegar's motivation behind to "taking" Lyanna is unknown. So I guess the verdict on his honorability is still out. Aegon the Conquerer had two wives, maybe Rhaegar was thinking of having 2 as well. Dany's vision of Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in CoK, seems to posit that Rhaegar is expecting something, hence "His is the Song of Ice and Fire". Maybe Rhaegar had dreams or visions like Daeron did in "The Hedge Knight"

Trebla, I guess my Beef with Brandon is something seen in hindsight. Was Aerys considered the Mad King because of what he did to the Starks or did he have a long record of such behavior? If he was already considered a Mad King at the time of Lyanna's abduction how wise is it to accuse his son to his face? I could see why Brandon would go to the king and expect justice, though. It seems to run in the family.

Dany's visions from when she was in the the House of the Undying Ones, IIRC) showed Rhaegar whispering a woman's name as he died, and there are two mentions of him dying for the woman he loved. How could dying at Robert's hands be construed as anything else but dying for Lyanna? Robert was her betrothed, and she was supposedly abducted by Rhaegar. That puts those two in conflict over her.

My main point being I guess, that without Howland Reed's story, we are taking shots in the dark.

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Apr 2nd 11:08 AM
Dany and Jon: parallels. This might have come up before but since I just noticed it I will ramble on. Both were given up by a family member. Viserys sold Dany to Drogo while Ned let Jon join the Night's Watch. These two people had nasty deaths later on. In their new lives Jon and Dany found acceptance. Jon choose to stick with the Watch rather than try to help his family. Dany choose the Dothraki over Viserys. Both have friends called Mormont. Both almost failed. Jon losing his position as squire and Dany her husband. But through fire regained stature. Jon killing the wight and Dany hatching the dragons.

Both spent much of aCoK travelling. In the end they faced the mystical, Jon with Bran and the wargs, Dany facing the sorcerors in Quarth. And at the close of aCoK they seem to have begun a new era in their lives, Dany returning to the Free Cities and Jon joining the Wildings.

Looking back to their births. They were stormy times. Dany in Dragonstone, Jon in all likelihood in Starfall. Dany had a hard relationship with Viserys, Jon with Catelyn.

And of course both are Targaryen.

haaruk Apr 2nd 3:17 PM
If Jon does not have a fraternal twin then I don't believe he is Lyanna's son. You all make the assumption that an honourable man cannot stray. Even from a woman he knew only one night. I believe that concept is flawed and will be proven so.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Vanryker User ID: 1300074	Jan 19th 1:15 PM Does anyone really know or speculate on who Jon's mother was and what happened to Benjen Stark?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 19th 1:32 PM Many, many times. :) Sulthon has a good synopsis of the major theory on his ASoIaF FAQ. You can find the specific bit at: http://web2.airmail.net/sulthon/faq.htm#c3 There are one or three other theories (from the mundane, 'Eddard was telling the truth, some peasant girl named Wylla is Jon's mother' to some more complex ones which I couldn't do justice to.) As to Benjen, sure, several ideas batted about on that one. Some think he's with the Children, others think he's with Mance Rayder, others figure he's out there alone, there's the looney idea that he _is_ Mance Rayder (sort of a Dread Pirate Roberts thing), and a couple of folk think he's just dead. I
Sisyphus User ID: 8708523	Jan 19th 9:40 PM This is my first post to this board, however, I believe I have a fairly plausible theory on Jon Snow's mother. If you re-read AGOT, (A Game of Thrones), you'll see Ned troubled by dreams of his sister (Lyanna) pleading Ned to promise something. Ned states that this was for her to be buried with the family. However, I believe that she was begging Ned to take her new-born son (Jon Snow) with her so that he would not be killed. See, Robert Baratheon stated that Lyanna had been raped by Rhaegar many times, and Robert was dead set on killing all Targaryens. If Robert had known that Lyanna had birthed a Targaryen spawn, he would have probably killed it in a jealous rage. I have a few points I feel back this up. 1. Ned Stark was impeccable about his honor, and quashed all conversation about the possibility of Jon's "mother." 2. Jon is the only sibling to look like the Starks. All others take after Catelyn's Tully blood. This is similar to Robert's bastards all having black hair, proof (in a Mideval sense) that Jaime and Cersei were having an incestous affair. The reason why Jon looks like a Stark is because he has Lyanna's blood and Rhaegar's... 3. It would make a fitting plot device since someone is going to have to fight Dany Targaryen and her dragons. Who else but another living Targaryen?
Zer0hour User ID: 1432154	Jan 20th 1:12 AM Welcome to the board, Sisyphus! Your theories on Rhaegar and Lyanna are sound, as the majority of us (not me) figured they are Jon's parents as well. There have been numerous discussions on the many boards out there on this, and has been most likely the most-talked-about topic. I try not to think about it, for now excepting Jon Snow is Eddard's bastard, with doubts flying through the air. When GRRM wants us to know for certain, he will tell us then. And about someone _having_ to fight Dany at the end...what if she and the dragons were the good guys? One never can tell her the good-guys and bad-guys are going to be with GRRM, as he likes to write his characters in "shades of grey."
Padraig User ID: 9363883	Jan 20th 1:11 PM Hi Sisyphus! You've very likely hit a bullseye by the way.
Terry User ID: 0909594	Mar 20th 0:31 AM Sisyphus has a fantastic theory there. But help me out -- does that work with the timeline set? Ned went off to battle and returned with Jon Snow as a babe. Wasn't Lyanna dead by then?
tyler User ID: 9377263	Mar 20th 3:28 AM No, she died at the tower of joy in Dorne, after the war was pretty much over.Also Sisyphus is forgetting that Arrya looks like a Stark not a Tully. Also from what i get Lyanna was probably in love with Rheagar, and what Robert said about her being raped was just him dealing with her not returning his love.
Padraig User ID: 2560524	Mar 20th 1:04 PM I wouldn't be that surprised if Robert doesn't know that Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar. I don't remember any hint from anyone but Ned that this was the case. Its the kind of thing that would be mentioned if it was common knowledge. Cersei been a good example of who would take full advantage of that knowledge.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 20th 1:41 PM Good point, Padraig. Dekving in a little furter. Who would have knowledge? Besides Howland Reed (sp)? More to the point, does Benjen Stark know? I have heard other people say that could be the reason that he took the black. for what ever reason. As to the original, I am firmly in the corner of the belief that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and that it became a Romeo and Juliet tragedy.
tyler User ID: 9377263	Mar 20th 1:45 PM Thats why it hurt so much when Ned died, he kept having all these cool flashbacks, that involved my favorite charaters Rhaegar and Authur Dayne
Thorfinn User ID: 9906923	Mar 20th 1:56 PM I know this may be silly but, could Lynna and Benjien be Jon's parents? Where was Benjein at the possible time Jon was concieved. Maybe Rheagar loved her and took her away so, no one would know of the thing she and her brother did. Rheagar married her to protect the child and Benjein if he was already at the wall. Or Benjein went to the wall because of his and Lynna's actions. Targaryens definately do the in family thing but, does anyone else do it? I know Lannisters kinda do it (or Tywin did). I just want to cover some more bases/possibilities. I still think Jon is Targaryen and Stark mix.
Snake User ID: 0317884	Mar 21st 11:04 AM I can believe that Jon belongs to Lyanna. I can even believe that she was smitten by Rhaegar. But, I don't believe that Rhaegar loved her. Just another possession for the Targaryens. He kidnapped her, for Lyanna would not dishonor her House. In fact, he probably kidnapped her because she wouldn't go with him. She probably woke the dragon, since Rhaegar was used to getting his own way, no doubt.
Padraig User ID: 9265663	Mar 21st 1:37 PM I had this nice idea Trebla that Benjen was with Ned at Starfall as a squire. But someone (Ran?, KAH?) pointed out that a Stark always sits at Winterfell. Thus Benjen in all likelihood was there during the war. Also IIRC we don't know how old Bran is. Lyanna was roughly 15, Ned 20 when the war began. I know these ages are incorrect but nevermind. So is Bran younger or older than Lyanna? Thorfinn, you are suggesting that Benjen, Rhaegar and Robert were all in love with Lyanna at the same time and were willing to sacrifice a lot to be with her? Wow. Snake I disagree. If Lyanna was not betrothed and Rhaegar wasn't married then you may have a point. But as a nobleman he would expect Lyanna to behave like her position demands. Thus expecting her to throw herself into his arms because he looked in her direction would be ridiculous. There is no hint he is that much a cad. I think there had to be something more to their relationship to make him disregard all normal rules.
tyler User ID: 9377263	Mar 22nd 2:41 AM Yeah Snake, at one point Ned is even thinking that he doubted Rhaegar ever visited brothels, which makes me think that Ned thought Rhaegar mostly hononable in that regard. Now you might say what about his wife, but once again you have to rember it was more than likely a political marrige, and his true love was Lyanna, who he couldnt have
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Mar 22nd 6:54 AM I like your point on Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar, Tyler, I think it's important. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped. A big missing link here is the events surrounding Lyanna's "departure" w/ Rhaegar, we just don't know. There are clues, however. Dany recalls the story of her brother (Rhaegar) "dying at the Trident for the women he loved" IIRC. That would posit, at least from the Targaryen point of view, that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. I doubt he was fighting for Elia when he met Robert at the Ruby Ford. So Lyanna left in the company of Rhaegar, one way or the other. Perhaps if Brandon and his company would have gone straight to Rhaegar there could have been some act of knight errantry between them and the conflict would have remained personal. Instead he went straight to Aerys the "Mad King" to accuse Rhaegar. Brandon, his father Rickard, and many other important gentry from the North and the Vale died in their attempt to bring Rhaegar to justice. Coupled with Robert's jealous fury it was enough to start a civil war. After the war ended, and the siege at Storm's End was lifted, which was a little over a year after the war started IIRC, Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys were dead, Eddard and his six companions faced the the three kingsguard at the "Tower of Joy" near the mountains of Dorne. Why would three of the Kingsguard be so far away from the king? Only if they were protecting one of the Royal family, right? Eddard found Lyanna in her bed of blood in that tower, she made him promise something, and then she died. The Crannogman, Howland Reed, found Eddard there holding her hand. Eddard pulled the tower down after that. Howland and Eddard were the only ones to return from that conflict, and now Eddard is gone. Howland is our key to the truth, only he knows what Lyanna made Eddard promise before she died. So I eagerly await his appearance.
Snake User ID: 0317884	Mar 23rd 10:28 AM Ned doubted that Rhaegar vivited brothels, true. But, was that because of his honor or because of his pride. As you all know Targaryens rarely mix with those of common blood. He probably thought one of royal blood should mix with whores. Why else did it take so long for him to find a wife? Hell, they had Robert's father out searching the land for a suitable bride while Rhaegar no doubt was waiting for one that was suitable to marry the dragon. Plus, he shamed his wife in front of everyone at Harrenal. Where was his honor then? I think he wanted his beauty prize and took it, the rest be damned.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 23rd 11:47 AM Benjen- Brandon didn't know that Rhaegar wasn't at King's Landing. Jamie remembers Brandon entering the Red Keep and shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die. As far as Rhaegar, I wonder if Lyanna had told him that she did not want to marry the philandering Robert and he made the decision to take her to Dorne. THe Hedge Knight story went a long way to paint the Targayens in a better light. Love may have made Rhaegar run off with Lyanna. But then honor would have made him leave her to go and protect his family from the rebellion. Also, could he have stayed with Lyanna after hearing what hisfather had done to Brandon and Lord Rickard?
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Mar 23rd 12:37 PM Good points guys. Snake - Rhaegar's motivation behind to "taking" Lyanna is unknown. So I guess the verdict on his honorability is still out. Aegon the Conquerer had two wives, maybe Rhaegar was thinking of having 2 as well. Dany's vision of Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in CoK, seems to posit that Rhaegar is expecting something, hence "His is the Song of Ice and Fire". Maybe Rhaegar had dreams or visions like Daeron did in "The Hedge Knight" Trebla, I guess my Beef with Brandon is something seen in hindsight. Was Aerys considered the Mad King because of what he did to the Starks or did he have a long record of such behavior? If he was already considered a Mad King at the time of Lyanna's abduction how wise is it to accuse his son to his face? I could see why Brandon would go to the king and expect justice, though. It seems to run in the family. Dany's visions from when she was in the the House of the Undying Ones, IIRC) showed Rhaegar whispering a woman's name as he died, and there are two mentions of him dying for the woman he loved. How could dying at Robert's hands be construed as anything else but dying for Lyanna? Robert was her betrothed, and she was supposedly abducted by Rhaegar. That puts those two in conflict over her. My main point being I guess, that without Howland Reed's story, we are taking shots in the dark.
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Apr 2nd 11:08 AM Dany and Jon: parallels. This might have come up before but since I just noticed it I will ramble on. Both were given up by a family member. Viserys sold Dany to Drogo while Ned let Jon join the Night's Watch. These two people had nasty deaths later on. In their new lives Jon and Dany found acceptance. Jon choose to stick with the Watch rather than try to help his family. Dany choose the Dothraki over Viserys. Both have friends called Mormont. Both almost failed. Jon losing his position as squire and Dany her husband. But through fire regained stature. Jon killing the wight and Dany hatching the dragons. Both spent much of aCoK travelling. In the end they faced the mystical, Jon with Bran and the wargs, Dany facing the sorcerors in Quarth. And at the close of aCoK they seem to have begun a new era in their lives, Dany returning to the Free Cities and Jon joining the Wildings. Looking back to their births. They were stormy times. Dany in Dragonstone, Jon in all likelihood in Starfall. Dany had a hard relationship with Viserys, Jon with Catelyn. And of course both are Targaryen.
haaruk	Apr 2nd 3:17 PM If Jon does not have a fraternal twin then I don't believe he is Lyanna's son. You all make the assumption that an honourable man cannot stray. Even from a woman he knew only one night. I believe that concept is flawed and will be proven so.