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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Treason in the North

labor
User ID: 9614573 Jan 26th 6:13 PM
Well, the "Bolton" topic seems to be broken, but I would like to point out something which seems really "new" to me:

Namely, isn't it strange that Varys gets the news about the fall of Winterfell long before anyone in Riverrun has an inkling about it and news about Bran's and Rickon's "deaths" before they arrive to Riverrun, though I have no idea by how much? It is at least two weeks of hard riding from KL to the Crossing, thus actually it should be the other way round...
It seems that Varys has a few reliable informants near Winterfell. Perhaps even in Cerwyn Castle? IIRC the only raven to escape bearing news about fall of Winterfell went to there...

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 29th 3:03 PM
After finding some time to look this up, the only bird to escape was directed at White Harbor.

Looking at the chapters, I think that the timing of things, as far as the taking of Winterfell goes, is the problem.

I was about to give a very long summary of why it looks like there's nothing particularly treacherous, but it'd cover a _lot_ of chapters.
Suffice it to say, it's clear that Catelyn's chapter has no news of the fall of Winterfell, and Harrenhal is not yet taken in the course of the chapter (or has just been taken at the very end -- the chapter covers a week long period).

Then Theon's chapter follows (meaning nothing chronologically -- it could be taking place before the start of Catelyn's chapter, or the end), and then Arya's where Harrenhal is taken, and then Tyrion where he notes they have news both of Harrenhal's fall and that of Winterfell.

So, clearly, Tyrion's chapter is taking place a goodly time after Catelyn's. When we return to Catelyn, it's plain that they've had news of Winterfell's and Harrenhal's falls for awhile -- but the news has just arrived about the "deaths" of the princes.

Again, we've no idea precisely where this fits with Tyrion getting the news about the deaths. Her chapter is probably taking several days prior to Tyrion's, however.

Right now, I'm inclined to say that there's nothing strange going on. News is flowing as it should. But I may have missed some tell-tale signs within the chapters as to timing of events.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 8th 1:37 PM
BTW, I've noticed some very interesting details about the northern troop numbers (has little to do with treason) :

Robb has 12K in Winterfell and those include levies of Winterfell itself, Bolton, Cerwyn, Umbers, Karstarks, Hornwoods, Glovers, Mormonts and Tallharts(?). 3K armored lances, 9K foot.

Karstarks alone have 2.3K - 2K foot, 300 lances. They seem more powerful than I thought, no wonder that they are quite arrogant.
I really,really wonder how much troops has Bolton got...

When Robb goes to Moat Cailin, he already has 18K, although apparently only Lord Flint and the barrow knights have additionally joined him. There must be lots and lots of small lorlings in the southern parts of the North...

And then the Manderlys join him with just 1.5 K troops, only 240 men mounted and not even all those heavy horse.
This seems fishy to me. Either Lord Manderly was permitted to send less because he must defend White Harbor, or he withheld a part of his forces for another reason... Because lands sworn to White Harbor should be both better populated and richer than those in far north (Karhold).

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Feb 8th 1:58 PM
Mayhaps lord Karstark rules a greater area of land than does lord Manderly - less inhabitants per square mile is made up by more square miles?

I dunno - it would seem more reasonable to measure out the lordships after population size rather than area size, although that's probably not how it works in a feudal society at all. :P

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 8th 2:05 PM
Mail #35 has this:

No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not
there.

So ... other people than just barrow knights and the Flints and Manderlys showed up (and surely this is a reference to the Flints of Widow's Watch -- Martin leaves open the possibility that the Flints of Flint's Fingers are in the army as well.)

I figure the Lockes are there. And both Flints. And the Dustins and the Ryswells -- perhaps not represented by lords or even their heirs, but by someone. They're just not particularly mentioned -- probably brought relatively small hosts.

The one thing I always found most interesting was that Luwin says that crannogmen would be joining the force. We hear nothing of them after that, and one should think one would have. I suppose because the scouting is done almost exclusively through outriders, their abilities don't exactly distinguish them.

I'm sure the issue with White Harbor is its defense. It's a vulnerable point, especially because of the lack of a naval fleet in the North.

Snake
User ID: 8890073 Feb 9th 9:05 PM
Where does it say that the crannogmen would be joining Robb? I only recall Robb sending word to Howland Reed.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 10th 5:56 AM
Maester Luwin says that barrow knights and crannogmen and the Lord Manderly and Flint were waiting along the kingsroad to join Robb as he rode south. P. 477 of the U.S. hardback.

I suppose he might have presumed that Robb would accept every sword he could, but Robb instead directed the crannogmen who showed up to help defend Moat Cailin and they disappeared into the swamp before Catelyn and the Blackfish arrived with the Manderlys.

labor User ID: 9614573	Jan 26th 6:13 PM Well, the "Bolton" topic seems to be broken, but I would like to point out something which seems really "new" to me: Namely, isn't it strange that Varys gets the news about the fall of Winterfell long before anyone in Riverrun has an inkling about it and news about Bran's and Rickon's "deaths" before they arrive to Riverrun, though I have no idea by how much? It is at least two weeks of hard riding from KL to the Crossing, thus actually it should be the other way round... It seems that Varys has a few reliable informants near Winterfell. Perhaps even in Cerwyn Castle? IIRC the only raven to escape bearing news about fall of Winterfell went to there...
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 29th 3:03 PM After finding some time to look this up, the only bird to escape was directed at White Harbor. Looking at the chapters, I think that the timing of things, as far as the taking of Winterfell goes, is the problem. I was about to give a very long summary of why it looks like there's nothing particularly treacherous, but it'd cover a _lot_ of chapters. Suffice it to say, it's clear that Catelyn's chapter has no news of the fall of Winterfell, and Harrenhal is not yet taken in the course of the chapter (or has just been taken at the very end -- the chapter covers a week long period). Then Theon's chapter follows (meaning nothing chronologically -- it could be taking place before the start of Catelyn's chapter, or the end), and then Arya's where Harrenhal is taken, and then Tyrion where he notes they have news both of Harrenhal's fall and that of Winterfell. So, clearly, Tyrion's chapter is taking place a goodly time after Catelyn's. When we return to Catelyn, it's plain that they've had news of Winterfell's and Harrenhal's falls for awhile -- but the news has just arrived about the "deaths" of the princes. Again, we've no idea precisely where this fits with Tyrion getting the news about the deaths. Her chapter is probably taking several days prior to Tyrion's, however. Right now, I'm inclined to say that there's nothing strange going on. News is flowing as it should. But I may have missed some tell-tale signs within the chapters as to timing of events.
labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 8th 1:37 PM BTW, I've noticed some very interesting details about the northern troop numbers (has little to do with treason) : Robb has 12K in Winterfell and those include levies of Winterfell itself, Bolton, Cerwyn, Umbers, Karstarks, Hornwoods, Glovers, Mormonts and Tallharts(?). 3K armored lances, 9K foot. Karstarks alone have 2.3K - 2K foot, 300 lances. They seem more powerful than I thought, no wonder that they are quite arrogant. I really,really wonder how much troops has Bolton got... When Robb goes to Moat Cailin, he already has 18K, although apparently only Lord Flint and the barrow knights have additionally joined him. There must be lots and lots of small lorlings in the southern parts of the North... And then the Manderlys join him with just 1.5 K troops, only 240 men mounted and not even all those heavy horse. This seems fishy to me. Either Lord Manderly was permitted to send less because he must defend White Harbor, or he withheld a part of his forces for another reason... Because lands sworn to White Harbor should be both better populated and richer than those in far north (Karhold).
KAH User ID: 0541004	Feb 8th 1:58 PM Mayhaps lord Karstark rules a greater area of land than does lord Manderly - less inhabitants per square mile is made up by more square miles? I dunno - it would seem more reasonable to measure out the lordships after population size rather than area size, although that's probably not how it works in a feudal society at all. :P
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 8th 2:05 PM Mail #35 has this: No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there. So ... other people than just barrow knights and the Flints and Manderlys showed up (and surely this is a reference to the Flints of Widow's Watch -- Martin leaves open the possibility that the Flints of Flint's Fingers are in the army as well.) I figure the Lockes are there. And both Flints. And the Dustins and the Ryswells -- perhaps not represented by lords or even their heirs, but by someone. They're just not particularly mentioned -- probably brought relatively small hosts. The one thing I always found most interesting was that Luwin says that crannogmen would be joining the force. We hear nothing of them after that, and one should think one would have. I suppose because the scouting is done almost exclusively through outriders, their abilities don't exactly distinguish them. I'm sure the issue with White Harbor is its defense. It's a vulnerable point, especially because of the lack of a naval fleet in the North.
Snake User ID: 8890073	Feb 9th 9:05 PM Where does it say that the crannogmen would be joining Robb? I only recall Robb sending word to Howland Reed.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 10th 5:56 AM Maester Luwin says that barrow knights and crannogmen and the Lord Manderly and Flint were waiting along the kingsroad to join Robb as he rode south. P. 477 of the U.S. hardback. I suppose he might have presumed that Robb would accept every sword he could, but Robb instead directed the crannogmen who showed up to help defend Moat Cailin and they disappeared into the swamp before Catelyn and the Blackfish arrived with the Manderlys.