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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Bran's spiked head

Next 20 Messages

Cersai
User ID: 9753653 Mar 21st 1:26 PM
How many people out there had a knot in their stomach when they thought George knocked off Bran and his little brother. I almost puked, I felt terrible. Also Osha killed Master Luwin, right? To stop the suffering?

Padraig
User ID: 9265663 Mar 21st 2:16 PM
Cersai, I felt sick when Jojen(?) said that Bran and Rickon were going to die. I made this jump though later on to believing that what Jojen really meant was Summer and Shaggy. Something to do with Jojen saying Reek was going to skin them. That didn't make me feel much better though;)

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Mar 21st 2:48 PM
That segment of the book had me as a reader on an emotional rollercoaster ride. As usual, I didn't pick up on some of the clues being dropped -- and I thought Bran and Rickon were goners. After all, this was the same author who killed off a major, major character in the early going. That Bran-Rickon thing was an especially good piece of writing by Martin.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Mar 21st 3:01 PM
Come now Ser Gary. Most of us don't see clues for what they are except with Hindsight.

ab

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Mar 21st 3:39 PM
Thanks for your support, Dirjj. But sometimes I think I was reading a totally different book than some of these other people were reading :)

Ser Benjen
User ID: 0240854 Mar 21st 4:16 PM
That part of the book had me tense. I will admit that I had to cheat. I had to page through the chapter headers to see if Bran had another one (same thing I did w/ Eddard), then I had to read through the book really fast, to see what happened.

I don't like to do that in unfinished series, because it means I have to wait that much longer for the next one. I couldn't help myself w/ CoK though. So I read it again when I was done. Sad, but true.

Snake
User ID: 1404584 Mar 21st 8:19 PM
I didn't think they were going to die. I also didn't think Ned was going to die and I don't think Robb is going to die. I don't believe that the dreams and such are actually going to happen. Plus, I forgot about what Meera had told Bran about Jojen's green dream.

I Claudius
User ID: 0505634 Mar 22nd 7:30 AM
I remembered the story that Ygritte told Jon about Bael the Bard hiding in the crypts of Winterfell and then it dawned on me that Osha, being a wilding would have known the story. Even though at first, I was very confused with Jojen's green dream (well, in this appeared the crypts IIRC), specially when the first part of it came true.

Strategon
User ID: 1320554 Mar 22nd 8:20 AM
In fact, I felt a bit "betrayed" in the end when it became clear that Bran und Rickon were still living. When the two heads oh the pikes were hanging over Winterfell, I was shocked as well, but I thought it was a perfect, marvelous and grim end of "Clash of Kings" ... very, very dark and cruel, but - epic, you know what I mean? I thought the next step would be that Brans ghost will melt together with Summers body.
But then, when it turned out that this all was just a fake, I was really disappointed. It seemed for me as if GRRM was too shy to let Bran and Rickon die.
Am I the only one who thinks so?

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Mar 22nd 9:04 AM
I understand what you're saying, Strategon. However, on the flip side, if GRRM keeps killing off a lot of major (and likeable) characters this great story will get far too depressing. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that nobody is apparently safe -- but I still want to have more good feelings than bad during the read. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Strategon
User ID: 1320554 Mar 22nd 9:09 AM
Well, until now just one main charakter - Ned - has died. And I think, that this was one point why "Game of Thrones" was such a marvelous book. The fantasy-readership is a quite conservative one (you can see that on those people in this forum who STILL believe that Ned is alive!), and it was very brave from Martin to kill Ned. But this shock was absolutely brilliant.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 22nd 10:46 AM
He-he, I am one of those people who never doubted that Bran and Rickon were alive. First of all, we already had a prophecy fail rather spectacularily - i.e. "the stallion who mounts the world". And then, Jojen's dreams were very contradictory, really. I mean, he dreamed that if Bran (as the winged wolf) breaks his chains, he will live, no? And IIRC he also dreamed that Bran had to go north to find the three-eyed crow.
So, when Jojen announced Bran's apparently imminent death, it wasn't clear which of his visions were to be believed.

Also, the boys being apparently killed without _any_ interference by direwolves whatsoever was a dead giveaway. When Theon showed up with the bodies and heads but without the wolfhides, I knew for sure that the Stark boys were alive.

Not that I don't think that the other death(s) by major "good" characters are due, but frankly deaths of Ser Roderick, Maester Luwin and the sack of Winterfell made it dark enough for me.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Mar 22nd 10:58 AM
I whole-heartedly agree with that last bit labor.

Arya_Stark
User ID: 0826264 Mar 22nd 11:51 AM
I think, definitely, that Jojen's dreams were to be believed. I mean, they DID die, to the world around them! That's why they're 'quote on quote' in the crypts, ya know? Anyway, I don't think Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin had to die, but the only one who really affected me was Eddard's death! I mean, come on ! He was an awesome character, you could have played on that a little more. Any also I don't think Jon Snow shouldv'e killed his black brother, even though he told him to.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Mar 22nd 11:56 AM
Arya, would you rather have had Jon gutted? That is what would have happended. Half-hand did a noble thing by dying to let Jon live. By sacrificing himself, he allowed Jon to infiltrate the wildlings. It will be a major plot branch. I really don't think Jon did wrong.

Min
User ID: 0074284 Mar 22nd 12:40 PM
I was abdolutely sure they were dead.
And yes, I back up with Benjen: I had to cheat, too.
Gary, I definitely think we were reading the same book. ;-)

Padraig
User ID: 9732463 Mar 22nd 4:02 PM
I never in my wildest days would have expected Winterfell to burn. Just when it looked like the Starks were going to start regaining the north everything turns to dust. It all meant that the end of aCoK was far bleaker than aGoT.

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Mar 22nd 10:15 PM
It'll get more bleaker for the Starks in ASOS. I'm a believer in the "Robb-Will-Die" theory.

Tristram
User ID: 9865253 Mar 22nd 11:00 PM
I was shocked by reading of Theon's actions early in that particular POV. The dipping of the heads in tar was what put me off. Earlier, GRRM had written that even Sansa couldn't recognize her own father once his decapitated head was grotesquely covered by tar. Theon's clever, but he leans towards the devious end of that spectrum. I denied myself of concluding that Bran and Rickon could be dead until GRRM revealed more substantial evidence. Faith was rewarded at the end of Theon's passage. Still felt terrible though knowing that those heads were of little children. Theon will get what's coming to him in the next book. He is on my list of names.

Yes Cersai, Osha gave Luwin a merciful death. And Padraig, I know just what you mean about Winterfell. Felt like I was watching the end of "SW: Empire Strikes Back" again for the first time.

Relic
User ID: 9328513 Mar 22nd 11:07 PM
Ok so this is still the one issue of a Clash of Kings that i completely dont have an answer too. Yes even after reading all of Ran's posts this one still eludes me =). Is Theon alive? From what iv gathered re-reading his chapter the very ending kinda resembles a death scene.

Next 20 Messages

Cersai User ID: 9753653	Mar 21st 1:26 PM How many people out there had a knot in their stomach when they thought George knocked off Bran and his little brother. I almost puked, I felt terrible. Also Osha killed Master Luwin, right? To stop the suffering?
Padraig User ID: 9265663	Mar 21st 2:16 PM Cersai, I felt sick when Jojen(?) said that Bran and Rickon were going to die. I made this jump though later on to believing that what Jojen really meant was Summer and Shaggy. Something to do with Jojen saying Reek was going to skin them. That didn't make me feel much better though;)
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Mar 21st 2:48 PM That segment of the book had me as a reader on an emotional rollercoaster ride. As usual, I didn't pick up on some of the clues being dropped -- and I thought Bran and Rickon were goners. After all, this was the same author who killed off a major, major character in the early going. That Bran-Rickon thing was an especially good piece of writing by Martin.
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Mar 21st 3:01 PM Come now Ser Gary. Most of us don't see clues for what they are except with Hindsight. ab
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Mar 21st 3:39 PM Thanks for your support, Dirjj. But sometimes I think I was reading a totally different book than some of these other people were reading :)
Ser Benjen User ID: 0240854	Mar 21st 4:16 PM That part of the book had me tense. I will admit that I had to cheat. I had to page through the chapter headers to see if Bran had another one (same thing I did w/ Eddard), then I had to read through the book really fast, to see what happened. I don't like to do that in unfinished series, because it means I have to wait that much longer for the next one. I couldn't help myself w/ CoK though. So I read it again when I was done. Sad, but true.
Snake User ID: 1404584	Mar 21st 8:19 PM I didn't think they were going to die. I also didn't think Ned was going to die and I don't think Robb is going to die. I don't believe that the dreams and such are actually going to happen. Plus, I forgot about what Meera had told Bran about Jojen's green dream.
I Claudius User ID: 0505634	Mar 22nd 7:30 AM I remembered the story that Ygritte told Jon about Bael the Bard hiding in the crypts of Winterfell and then it dawned on me that Osha, being a wilding would have known the story. Even though at first, I was very confused with Jojen's green dream (well, in this appeared the crypts IIRC), specially when the first part of it came true.
Strategon User ID: 1320554	Mar 22nd 8:20 AM In fact, I felt a bit "betrayed" in the end when it became clear that Bran und Rickon were still living. When the two heads oh the pikes were hanging over Winterfell, I was shocked as well, but I thought it was a perfect, marvelous and grim end of "Clash of Kings" ... very, very dark and cruel, but - epic, you know what I mean? I thought the next step would be that Brans ghost will melt together with Summers body. But then, when it turned out that this all was just a fake, I was really disappointed. It seemed for me as if GRRM was too shy to let Bran and Rickon die. Am I the only one who thinks so?
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Mar 22nd 9:04 AM I understand what you're saying, Strategon. However, on the flip side, if GRRM keeps killing off a lot of major (and likeable) characters this great story will get far too depressing. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that nobody is apparently safe -- but I still want to have more good feelings than bad during the read. But hey, maybe that's just me.
Strategon User ID: 1320554	Mar 22nd 9:09 AM Well, until now just one main charakter - Ned - has died. And I think, that this was one point why "Game of Thrones" was such a marvelous book. The fantasy-readership is a quite conservative one (you can see that on those people in this forum who STILL believe that Ned is alive!), and it was very brave from Martin to kill Ned. But this shock was absolutely brilliant.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 22nd 10:46 AM He-he, I am one of those people who never doubted that Bran and Rickon were alive. First of all, we already had a prophecy fail rather spectacularily - i.e. "the stallion who mounts the world". And then, Jojen's dreams were very contradictory, really. I mean, he dreamed that if Bran (as the winged wolf) breaks his chains, he will live, no? And IIRC he also dreamed that Bran had to go north to find the three-eyed crow. So, when Jojen announced Bran's apparently imminent death, it wasn't clear which of his visions were to be believed. Also, the boys being apparently killed without _any_ interference by direwolves whatsoever was a dead giveaway. When Theon showed up with the bodies and heads but without the wolfhides, I knew for sure that the Stark boys were alive. Not that I don't think that the other death(s) by major "good" characters are due, but frankly deaths of Ser Roderick, Maester Luwin and the sack of Winterfell made it dark enough for me.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Mar 22nd 10:58 AM I whole-heartedly agree with that last bit labor.
Arya_Stark User ID: 0826264	Mar 22nd 11:51 AM I think, definitely, that Jojen's dreams were to be believed. I mean, they DID die, to the world around them! That's why they're 'quote on quote' in the crypts, ya know? Anyway, I don't think Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin had to die, but the only one who really affected me was Eddard's death! I mean, come on ! He was an awesome character, you could have played on that a little more. Any also I don't think Jon Snow shouldv'e killed his black brother, even though he told him to.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Mar 22nd 11:56 AM Arya, would you rather have had Jon gutted? That is what would have happended. Half-hand did a noble thing by dying to let Jon live. By sacrificing himself, he allowed Jon to infiltrate the wildlings. It will be a major plot branch. I really don't think Jon did wrong.
Min User ID: 0074284	Mar 22nd 12:40 PM I was abdolutely sure they were dead. And yes, I back up with Benjen: I had to cheat, too. Gary, I definitely think we were reading the same book. ;-)
Padraig User ID: 9732463	Mar 22nd 4:02 PM I never in my wildest days would have expected Winterfell to burn. Just when it looked like the Starks were going to start regaining the north everything turns to dust. It all meant that the end of aCoK was far bleaker than aGoT.
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Mar 22nd 10:15 PM It'll get more bleaker for the Starks in ASOS. I'm a believer in the "Robb-Will-Die" theory.
Tristram User ID: 9865253	Mar 22nd 11:00 PM I was shocked by reading of Theon's actions early in that particular POV. The dipping of the heads in tar was what put me off. Earlier, GRRM had written that even Sansa couldn't recognize her own father once his decapitated head was grotesquely covered by tar. Theon's clever, but he leans towards the devious end of that spectrum. I denied myself of concluding that Bran and Rickon could be dead until GRRM revealed more substantial evidence. Faith was rewarded at the end of Theon's passage. Still felt terrible though knowing that those heads were of little children. Theon will get what's coming to him in the next book. He is on my list of names. Yes Cersai, Osha gave Luwin a merciful death. And Padraig, I know just what you mean about Winterfell. Felt like I was watching the end of "SW: Empire Strikes Back" again for the first time.
Relic User ID: 9328513	Mar 22nd 11:07 PM Ok so this is still the one issue of a Clash of Kings that i completely dont have an answer too. Yes even after reading all of Ran's posts this one still eludes me =). Is Theon alive? From what iv gathered re-reading his chapter the very ending kinda resembles a death scene.