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A Song of Ice and Fire / Other Topics / Jackal of Nar (Spoilers)

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Tom R.
User ID: 8583623 		Apr 14th 3:25 PM
OK, then. I'll give this a go. I heartily recommend the book "Jackal of Nar" by John Marco to any and all ASOIAF fans. Marco is not nearly as good a writer as Martin (but then, who is?), but his book is still pretty good and well worth reading. This thread is intended for anyone who has read "Jackal" (yes, all four of you), so spoilers may abound. Read on at your own risk.

First off, Labor: what is your problem with Biagio? I thought he was a great villain. His whole relationship with Arkus was both interesting and bizarre, and I find him to be an altogether intriguing character. I look forward to finding out more about him in future books.

The female characters in this series, however, are more poorly drawn. Dyana, IMHO, seems fairly insipid--a not terribly interesting "love interest" for our hero. I liked Sabrina better (alas, poor Sabrina!).
labor
User ID: 0394114 		Apr 14th 4:45 PM
Villains... Where should I begin? First of all, most members of the Iron circle look like caricatures. I.e. Bovadin is typical "mad scientist", admiral is typically bloodthirsty and not very bright, Arkus is typical tyrant, etc.

I agree that Biagio's relationship with Arkus is very intriguing. That's why I think that the count has promise.

Their methods to find magic in Luci-Lor don't make much sense, unfortunately. I mean, think about it. They wanted to learn about magic _and_ they had lots of Triin refugees desperate to go to Nar in Ackle-Nye. Clue, clue? First of all, these people could have furnished them some information. Then they could allow selected families to cross and with women and children held hostage send men back to look for magic. It would IMHO, make much more sense than attacking and searching(?!) villages and questioning peasants. Wasn't it a bit silly, to expect magic to turn up in someone's hut or barn?

And then there is Sabrina's murder. Why would any intelligent villain deprive himself of a hostage? Especially, since Richius was likely to be near the source of supposed magic! Kicking oneself in the shins, no? With Sabrina alive and threatened, would Richius be fighting alongside Voris in the Dring valley?
Tom R.
User ID: 3647314 		Apr 14th 5:29 PM
Bulldozing into Lucel-Lor to "get magic" did seem a little much, I will admit, but I'm not all that sure Biagio even wanted to save Arkus. It would have made more sense for Biagio to drag his feet on the war front and just let Arkus die so that he himself could take over the reigns of power. Biagio's "love" for Arkus didn't strike me as very genuine.

As for Sabrina, I think Biagio is big into "making statements"--and Sabrina's death was a statement--he cared nothing about hostages because there was nothing he really needed to bargain for. Biagio is more like to just TAKE what he wants, through war or subterfuge.

If Biagio (or Arkus, for that matter) had really wanted to find rejuvenating magic, why didn't they send a series of Shadow Angel assassin types into Lucel-Lor to get what was needed? As I said, I think Biagio's "Let me take care of everything, Dear Arkus" was just his way of letting Arkus pass on to the great beyond.

The sequel, of course, may prove me totally and utterly wrong in that theory, however!
Greyjoy
User ID: 0860834 		Apr 14th 8:08 PM
I disagree with almost everuthing I've read so far.
It made absolute sense for Arkus and Nar to go about finding magic in Lucel-Lor the way they did. when considering this book you can't force your own logic onto it or compare it with other fantasy. Nar is a powerul nation that takes what it wants by force. It reminds me alot of the Roman empire actually. For them to storm into lucel-lor the way they did fits with their mentality.
Also remember, magic isn't as prevalent in this world as other fantasy worlds. In fact, only Tharn has shown these powers. Ofcourse Arkus wants every stone turned over in his quest.
Nar only knows how to do things big and bloody.
I really think Biagio was sincere in his love for Arkus also. Maybe Tom, you can give me some examples why you do not think this to be the case.

Next, I don't believe any of the characters we have seen so far are typical labor. That is an easy and general statement to make without much to support it. Another thing is I don't get all these comparisons of Richius to Sansa. I think neither of them are alike at all and I will gladly defend that position.

Well, we definately know Marco isn't afraid to kill off characters. I really will miss Tharn. I felt sorry for him, and he was a wonderful character. It was also sad what happened to Patwin and Dinadin. I will also surprisingly miss Voris. I thought he was great. I was very surprised to see Tharn dead. was anyone else?

I can't wait for the second book! Marco is a fantastic author. Does he ever keep the pace moving as well. I think the way he left things off at the end of Jackal will give us a great sequel. Does anyone agree? I am so interested in seeing what now happens in Nar. What will Liss's role be? How will Richius come back into the plot? I know I will get alot more of one thing I love: political intrigue.

I think one day Marco will be an author to rival Martin.
Tom R.
User ID: 3647314 		Apr 15th 6:10 AM
Hey, Greyjoy. Glad to see you have finished the book. Now I can ask another question: the role of magic was really pretty small in this book, and it all seemed to be concentrated in and around Tharn so ... what now? Tharn didn't have any apprentices or helpers that had his, what was it, "touch of heaven" powers or whatever. So where will the magic go, I wonder?

I am also hoping that there will be some "good guys" on the science/technology side; right now it looks like the world of science and technology is the exclusive domain of evil people.

Greyjoy, my suspicions about Biagio have to do with his character generally and about Arkus as well. Not enough of Arkus was explained to convince me that he was "loveable" to someone as apparently cold-blooded as Biagio. (Didn't Biagio kill his own natural father?) What, in other words, would have been the basis of Biagio's "loyalty" to Arkus? (Maybe we'll find out in book 2.) Biagio seems truly loyal only to Biagio, IMHO.

Richius is like Sansa in the sense that he often doesn't seem to see past the immediate: he treated Sabrina pretty badly (I thought) and then up and left her. When she was killed, it was like, oh well. Too bad, so sad. Yeah, he felt badly, I guess, but he was ready to "move on" (to Dyana) awfully quickly. He also seems to do a lot of pining and moping--which drives me nuts. In that, too, I think he is like Sansa. He is also quick to judge based on superficial appearances (like Sansa). I also thought Richius was awfully slow to realize that Tharn, Voris, and the other Triin weren't half so bad after all. Hello, Richius? Hello? Get a clue, boy! It's frustrating when a reader can be so far ahead of the lead character. It's like watching a horror movie when the lead character decides to goes back into some haunted house for something stupid, like a pack of gum or something.

Don't get me wrong; I liked Richius well enough, but I did want to shake some sense into him--as I often did with Sansa.
Greyjoy
User ID: 0860834 		Apr 15th 7:17 AM
Hey Tom,
You bring up some good questions. First, I'm also wondering what will happen with the magic. One great thing that Marco is doing is keeping the magic quotient to an absolute minimum. This reminds me of Martin. It gives what magic there is alot more impact and mystery. But what happens now? I'm wondering Tom, if possibly in the future Richius might be touched by heaven? I think it's possible. What do you think? I plan on E-mailing Marco to tell him I enjoyed his book and I'm going to ask him about future magic.

As for good guys controlling the science, who the hell knows if that is gonna happen. I'll bet that the scientists don't think they are evil. I am interested to see in the Grand Design who the third faction will be that approaches Richius about the Naren civil war. Tom, how can you hold off reading that book!!!

Now, as to the relationship between Biagio and Arkus, I believe love was there although it was quite sadistic. Yes Biagio killed his father but he is an odd fellow. In one of his chapters he thinks to himself that Arkus was more of a father than anyone ever was. Biagio, being the power hungry fellow that he is admits he quickly got caught up in Arkus's ideology. They were essentially the same. Because of this they had an odd, loving relationship.

I still don't get the Richius/Sansa comparison. Sansa was always too sheltered. She was a snob but didn't even realise it. However Richius has many qualities that Sansa never possessed.
I love Richius because he is such a paradox. Marco has done a great job in developing him. He really is the perfect reluctant hero. As for Richius not becoming friendly with Tharn and the gang sooner... Give me a break Tom. If you just had a bloody war with someone where you lost many people you loved, would you suddenly be able to accept them as an ally? I think not. Richius was a victim of propaganda. Once again I'll say it is important not to put our own logic onto the story when interpreting it.

labor
User ID: 0394114 		Apr 16th 3:09 PM
Greyjoy, first of all I don't see why logic can't be applied to the actions of "Jackal's" pro/anto-gonists. In any case, I do apply logic to whatever I read and (also)judge books on that basis. It need not be our RL logic, but the one consistent with the book's world.

Having said that, with Roshann everywere, Talistan only a day's ride away and Richius being in charge of preparations for invasion, wasn't it silly to go and meet Lucyler? Even taking into account that his people would try to cover his absence? Very, very rash and risky at the very least, since the way there and back should have taken about a week.
But not enough, Richius then gamely goes to Falindar, when it should take about 1 month just to get there. Huh? He didn't send back any instructions/explanations (not that it would have helped much), etc., how could he possibly hope to get away with this? After ruthless Arkus told him about his goals? After Richius agreed to prepare and lead the invasion?

IMHO it is very much what Sansa had done - i.e. just as she, Richius selfishly threw any common sense out the window and exposed his people to deadly danger for the sake of love. Unlike Sansa, though, Richius couldn't help but know what and how great the danger was, as he was sufficiently warned in the Black City.

Again, it makes him an interesting character, IMHO. I like Sansa, I like Rhaegar, so there. But it doesn't exonerate him.

Biaggio... I also believe that his devotion to Arkus was sincere. That is what makes him interesting. Morever, he was afraid of instability which would insue after Arkus's death.
From this POV his approach to finding magic in Lucel-Lor makes no sense.

Yep, Nar likes to do thinks big and bloody, but they also got beaten often enough (i.e. Liss, first campaign in Lucel-Lor) and the need was quite urgent. And if Nar couldn't do things efficiently, there would be no Black Renaissance and it wouldn't exist and expand.
If the magic is scarce in Marco's world it makes even less sense to look for it by the peasants. IMHO it doesn't take a thinker to realise that the most likely people to posess it would be cunning men of the Drol and the other priest equivalents of the Triin. Morever, while the Triin themselves constantly go about having no magic, sending a fetch or controlling wolves/lions looks magical enough to me and likely to the Narens as well.

Sabrina's murder was a statement, alright. It was again quite a stupid action, contrary to Biaggio's stipulated aims.
I guess I wouldn't have so much against the count's MO if he wasn't obviously set up as a subtle and intelligent villain.

The other members of the Iron circle - YMMV.

Tharn is a very interesting character. I'll expound on him another time. IMHO his former Triin enemies (and Richius's) acceptance of him is a bit too easy. He is still guilty of killing and starving his own people, opressing women, murdering Dyana's father, temporarily destroying his people's chances of progress etc. A rather good portrayal of an altruistic revolutionary, IMHO. Very unusual for fantasy.

Dinadin's and Voris's death scene was great, BTW.
I also really hope that good science makes an appearance - noble savages against the evil science (Ewok effect) is a rather tired trope.

Anyway, my chief issue with the book is cliche ham-handedness of Arkus, Biaggio and Co, the cardboard Gayles and the "Ewok-mudjaheddin" effect of the Triin. I guess that the writing, while certainly solid, doesn't especialy gripe me either.

OTOH, given how it is Marco's first book, the things can grow better and he certainly has enough interesting ideas.
Claidhaim
User ID: 8590713 		Apr 17th 10:50 AM
Well, I've read "Grand Design" so some of these thoughts may be colored by that. Although I will proof-read this post to make it spoiler free of the Grand Design.

I agree with Labor, mostly. I could understand why Richius went to meet Lucylor, but his leaving for Falindor was totally unexusable. I couldn't see why he would do something like that to Aramoor, the country he is the head of.

Biaggio killed his father in a revolution to take over Crote for his own, which is understandable. I think his devotion to Arkus is real and is twisted. The drug given by Bovadin is an interesting twist to the tale as all of the Iron Circle are taking it, aren't they?

I enjoyed the books, but the title shouldn't have been Tyrants and Kings, but "The Amourous Adventures of Richius Vantran"

Not enough backstory in this book, by far.

As far as the Narens invading to find magic under rocks and in barns, it was apparent to me that the Narens and Triin didn't have relations until a short time before with the building of Akle-Nye. That was one of the reasons for the revolution led by Tharn. To cleanse Lucel-Lor of Naren influence and Narens themselves.

Arkus only knew that there was magic in Lucel-Lor because that is what the Dagog told him. He didn't tell him where it was or who had it, but just that it was in Lucel-Lor.

The villains Biaggio and Arkus were severly narrow-minded when it came to this, but it can be explained by their scientific/technologic society to not know the workings of magic. To them, it was probably a machine or several machines that created it out of thin air.

More later.....
DarthDarthBinks
User ID: 1056474 		Apr 30th 10:09 PM
Tom R. is completely correct in his assessment about the reader being so far ahead of the characters at any point in the book. The plot is mostly predictable, although there is the occasional ruthless surprise. But the characters can't stop staring at their own belly-buttons long enough to realize what is going on.

Richius is of course the prime example with his refusal to retreat, or even consider a possible new point of view. Dinadin does the same thing, etc. The characters are stagnant and 2-dimensional, and the writing just doesn't keep me interested. I wouldn't recommend this book to most people.
Tom R.
User ID: 3647314 		May 1st 5:22 PM
Whew! Well, DarthDarth, it's not that bad, really. I'm now about 150 pages into the sequel, The Grand Design, and I still think Marco has done a pretty nice job here. I don't find the plot to be predictable at all--in fact, at this juncture, I have no idea where it's headed.

I do, however, find the primary protagonist, Richius, to be somewhat annoying (though I still kind of like the guy). For some reason, Richius reminds me of the cartoon character Scooby-Doo: kind of a dufus but he means well. (Just for fun I'm laying odds on which "good guy" characters will get killed off due to Richius' bumbling in this volume. With friends like him, who needs enemies?)

Thus far in The Grand Design, Richius seems to be the same big, dopey, selfish, clueless oaf he was in the first book, which is something of a disappointment. Nevertheless, interesting new characters have been introduced, and I still find the storyline to be pretty creative. I am sort of hoping at this point, however, that Richius is killed off by the end of this series, as I've about had it with him. Go get 'im, Biagio!
Kristin
User ID: 0750024 		May 14th 6:32 PM
I'm going to agree with the "big dumb clueless oaf" assessment of Richius. I haven't finished Jackal of Nar yet; I've just reached the part where Tharn tells Richius that Dyana is going to accompany him as an interpreter. Well, aren't things working out nicely for Richius? Heck, he doesn't even have to worry about bringing Dyana home to Aramoor and being a constant temptation for him, since he abandoned his kingdom and left his sixteen-year-old wife to be raped and murdered. If there comes a scene in this book where Richius and Dyana graphically consummate their wondrous love, I'm afraid Jackal of Nar might become third on the list of Books that I Have Flung Across the Room.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		May 14th 6:33 PM
What were the other two? ;)
Kristin
User ID: 0750024 		May 14th 6:33 PM
Why does my User ID keep changing? I haven't posted in a while; does that have anything to do with it?
Kristin
User ID: 0750024 		May 14th 6:39 PM
Anno Dracula and Temple of the Winds. I really, really liked the original Dracula, and Newman kinda wrecked that by making becoming a vampire a trendy thing. (I'm not all that fond of Rice anymore, either.} Ack. As for Temple of the Winds, the flinging occured after some woman got her breasts cut off--don't know why that in particular got to me, after all the previous sexual violence in the series, but that's what did it.
Tom R.
User ID: 8583623 		May 15th 7:43 PM
Keep us posted, Kristin! (I want to find out if you throw this book across the room.)

Actually, I think the story improves in book two and, though I still can't say I'm too enthusiastic about Richius, the secondary characters carry the story along pretty well. I'm only about halfway through the second book (I may well be the world's SLOWEST reader), but I do think the series is pretty interesting. The whole "army of the air" thing is, I think, particularly cool--it's pure Alfred Hitchcock.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		May 17th 12:48 PM
For those who haven't seen it, SF Site has an interview with Marco in its mid-May edition, plus an excerpt from The Grand Design. The interview includes a tidbit of information concerning the third book, although I couldn't say whether it's any new or not for the TaK series readers. :)

http://www.sfsite.com/05b/jm81.htm
Greyjoy
User ID: 0860834 		May 17th 8:12 PM
Hello,
I've been away from the board for awhile (in Cuba) and tomorrow I'll start once again pumping up this series. I'm still recovering from the trip. Grand Design was phenominal, and your right Tom, the Army of the Air thing was pretty awesome. It blew my mind!! There are some great parts involving them coming up. Please hurry and finish that book so we can really discuss it.
Kristin
User ID: 9892733 		May 19th 10:27 PM
Well, Tom, I finished Jackal of Nar and am proud to report that I did not fling it across the room. I came close, however, when Tharn put Richius and Dyana's hands together. Funny, once I would have found that terribly romantic and heartwrenching.
Tom R.
User ID: 8583623 		May 24th 9:50 AM
Kristin: I agree with you about the faux romantic ending to Jackal. But read the next book.

The story gets ... more interesting (as, not coincidentally, Richius moves a little more to the background).
Tom R.
User ID: 8583623 		Jun 1st 10:07 AM
I finished (finally!) "The Grand Design." It was pretty good, I thought. In fact, I liked it better than the first book. I liked especially the last play in Biagio's grand schemes for his enemies (i.e., what happened on Crote), although I was stunned by the ending of the book--it seemed a tad anticlimactic. Maybe Biagio really is insane...

I am somewhat taken aback by Marco's tendency to kill off key characters. To invest so much time and effort in building up a character and then to just dust 'em, just like that, seems kind of wasteful, doesn't it?

I believe "magic" is also going to make a comeback in Book 3, "Saints of the Sword". It was virtually nonexistent in Book 2.

Now I've started "Dragons of a Fallen Sun," the newest DragonLance novel by Hickman/Weis. It's off to a good start.
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