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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Song of Ice and Fire / The future of Westeros

Darrick Sep 10th 8:25 PM
I moved this thread over from the announcements section as per Ran's request.

MAD-ness:

While I am not so sure about your theory LindaElane, it does bring up a good point. Why does Arya attract incredibly skilled men from oversees? I mean, what was the former first sword of the braavos doing in King's Landing and why would he agree to teach a little girl how to "water dance?"

Why was a mysterious and philosophical master murder caught while on Westeros and what were the odds of him going to the watch? Also, it seems as if the other two chained guys were with Jaquen, were they his at the start or did he just "earn" their cooperation? I guess we will see what exotic person Arya "befriends" in aSoS.

Anyone have any guesses on how far the Arya/Nymeria thing
will go? I am not sure if it is a red herring or if Arya will truly do
something like Nymeria did. She is definitely learning to be a warrior and she is fierce enough by far. Perhaps she will be the next warrior queen...though it does seem too easy.

Padraig:
User ID: 1564944
Jun 3rd 6:58 AM
I've asked myself the same questions, MAD-ness. Arya was
surprised that when Jaqen disappeared the 2 others remained.
So it looks like he scared them into cooperation.
I think Arya is certainly going to follow the martial path she is on at the moment. If Robb dies then I see her chances of becoming a warrior queen more likely. OTOH with Robb not around I wonder how she will ever get an army to follow her. Maybe Dany will lend her one?

MAD-ness:
User ID: 3612744
Jun 4th 0:31 AM
If I haven't made it clear before, I will do so now. I 'feel' that A Song of Ice and Fire is set in a transitional period. A period of revolution, social reform, perhaps even technological progress. I feel very strongly that Westeros will be a very different place at the end of the series, on a fundamental level. I think it is more comparable to the amount of change that came with the First Men, or the amount of change that came with the first long winter and the Others. I don't really have any evidence to support this, othe than a gut feeling a collection of small hints and interpretations that add up to one big hunch.

Anyways, I am sort of a crummy person to discuss theories with, since I feel that many more things are currently possible than are traditonally possible in Westeros and that change will only further progress in the series.
There are going to be a LOT of homeless people, refugees, etc. Arya is currently near the river lands. When the conflict is finally resolved (atleast the Robb vs Tywin conflict), there are going to be a very large number of people scattered around the kinddom. Arya has already shown that it is possible for her to lead, as she has done occasionally with Gendry and the other children. I would be very surprised if someone offered fealty to her, as in a lord, but I don't see the "common" people as being quite so tradition bound or arrogant. Perhaps Arya will end up leading something similar to the 'Band of the RedHand" that mat cauthon leads in WoT. I think this is the most likely course of action. I can hear the people talk of her now: "The girl who the gods sent to bring justice to the lands," "Nymeria reincarnated, with a magical direwolf at her command," "Lyanna, born again so that she may have her revenge," "Arya's Army and the Peasant Uprising," etc, etc, etc.

Even if she roams around killing people on her list and occasionally finding companions, she will become a legend very quickly, even more so than Dondarrion has. The "people" will eat this story up.

ldarian:
User ID: 8255903
Sep 9th 10:02 PM
Interesting throeies. Arya seems to be tied to Nymeria, in that she is now wandering lost in the riverlands. I look to see her reuinted with her wolf, about the same time that Robb and Tywin finish their little battle.

Jim:
User ID: 9077913
Sep 9th 10:07 PM
I agree that Westeros and possibly the world will be very different after the series is over. I see Dondarrion's "Brotherhood" as the beginning of a "we're tired of getting slaughtered every time you high-muckety-mucks get pissed at each other" movement by the lower classes. It may even spell the beginning of the end of the feudal system in Westeros.

Darrick:
Sep 10th 6:37 PM
From what I understand, the feudal system in RL came to end for many different reasons. There was an evolution of technology that made the knight(the military and political elite of the feudal system) cease to be king of the battlefield. Kings also began to grab power from local lords, removing a check on their own power. Towns, and cities grew, which presumably lent still more power to the central authority. I believe guilds and the merchant class also grew during this period as well. And the Black plague depopulated Europe to such an extent that individual labor became more valuable further eroding the feudal structure. There are many people on this board who've probably forgotten more about the middle ages than I ever knew. Does this partial list of the causes of feudalism's decline seem accurate? I suspect I'm taking various events throughout the end of the middle ages, and before the Renaissance, and making them contemporary. Regardless, how does it match up with what's going on in the story? If anything, the individual lords seem _more_ powerful. The Tyrells and the Martells are a power unto hemselves at this point. The technology of Westeros has been stagnant for millenia, it doesn't seem likely to change soon(unless its brought over from the far East). Perhaps magic will fill the role that technology did in real life. Towns and cities also appear to be fairly stable, and unable to raise sufficient military forces.

The brotherhood may not a succesful example for a peasent revolt against feudalism since they can't provide a different economic model than the standard feudal one. Someone like Petyr Baelish might though, since he is a little capitalist at heart. Maybe he foreshadows the rise of a new mercantile class...perhaps in alliance with their associates over the narrow sea.

As for a plague to help wipe away the old order...Will the Others fit the bill? They could inflict such damage that the only way to salvage Westeros' civlization is for a strong king to take over, and create a powerful central authority. Alliance with the lands to the east could stimulate trade and bring in technology needed to survive and prosper. Maybe Dany, supported by people like Littlefinger and Illyrio, will take power from the nobles and become an absolute monarch. Anyway, its interesting to speculate on what the future of Westeros will be. Are we seeing a new age emerge, or, assuming everyone survives winter, will society remain at the status quo?

Ran:
User ID: 0743024
Sep 10th 7:06 PM
You know, it might be best to shift this into another topic. Announcements isn't exactly the most appropriate. ;)

Ran
User ID: 0743024 Sep 10th 8:35 PM
Note that the last one, about moving the topic, no longer applies. Thanks to Darrick for doing the copying task. :) It's an interesting topic, and I'll post some thoughts tomorrow when I'm more awake. ;)

Maeglin
User ID: 0707654 Sep 12th 2:12 AM
Darrick you are quite right about the black plague being the reason for the decline of fuedalism, with so many people dead those who survived could demand a higher price for their labor and to pay for this many of the nobles had to sell small portions of their land this took sole control of land away from the nobility and placed it into the hands of more commoners, with people now owning and working their own land the nobilty became obselete.

Darrick	Sep 10th 8:25 PM I moved this thread over from the announcements section as per Ran's request. MAD-ness: While I am not so sure about your theory LindaElane, it does bring up a good point. Why does Arya attract incredibly skilled men from oversees? I mean, what was the former first sword of the braavos doing in King's Landing and why would he agree to teach a little girl how to "water dance?" Why was a mysterious and philosophical master murder caught while on Westeros and what were the odds of him going to the watch? Also, it seems as if the other two chained guys were with Jaquen, were they his at the start or did he just "earn" their cooperation? I guess we will see what exotic person Arya "befriends" in aSoS. Anyone have any guesses on how far the Arya/Nymeria thing will go? I am not sure if it is a red herring or if Arya will truly do something like Nymeria did. She is definitely learning to be a warrior and she is fierce enough by far. Perhaps she will be the next warrior queen...though it does seem too easy. Padraig: User ID: 1564944 Jun 3rd 6:58 AM I've asked myself the same questions, MAD-ness. Arya was surprised that when Jaqen disappeared the 2 others remained. So it looks like he scared them into cooperation. I think Arya is certainly going to follow the martial path she is on at the moment. If Robb dies then I see her chances of becoming a warrior queen more likely. OTOH with Robb not around I wonder how she will ever get an army to follow her. Maybe Dany will lend her one? MAD-ness: User ID: 3612744 Jun 4th 0:31 AM If I haven't made it clear before, I will do so now. I 'feel' that A Song of Ice and Fire is set in a transitional period. A period of revolution, social reform, perhaps even technological progress. I feel very strongly that Westeros will be a very different place at the end of the series, on a fundamental level. I think it is more comparable to the amount of change that came with the First Men, or the amount of change that came with the first long winter and the Others. I don't really have any evidence to support this, othe than a gut feeling a collection of small hints and interpretations that add up to one big hunch. Anyways, I am sort of a crummy person to discuss theories with, since I feel that many more things are currently possible than are traditonally possible in Westeros and that change will only further progress in the series. There are going to be a LOT of homeless people, refugees, etc. Arya is currently near the river lands. When the conflict is finally resolved (atleast the Robb vs Tywin conflict), there are going to be a very large number of people scattered around the kinddom. Arya has already shown that it is possible for her to lead, as she has done occasionally with Gendry and the other children. I would be very surprised if someone offered fealty to her, as in a lord, but I don't see the "common" people as being quite so tradition bound or arrogant. Perhaps Arya will end up leading something similar to the 'Band of the RedHand" that mat cauthon leads in WoT. I think this is the most likely course of action. I can hear the people talk of her now: "The girl who the gods sent to bring justice to the lands," "Nymeria reincarnated, with a magical direwolf at her command," "Lyanna, born again so that she may have her revenge," "Arya's Army and the Peasant Uprising," etc, etc, etc. Even if she roams around killing people on her list and occasionally finding companions, she will become a legend very quickly, even more so than Dondarrion has. The "people" will eat this story up. ldarian: User ID: 8255903 Sep 9th 10:02 PM Interesting throeies. Arya seems to be tied to Nymeria, in that she is now wandering lost in the riverlands. I look to see her reuinted with her wolf, about the same time that Robb and Tywin finish their little battle. Jim: User ID: 9077913 Sep 9th 10:07 PM I agree that Westeros and possibly the world will be very different after the series is over. I see Dondarrion's "Brotherhood" as the beginning of a "we're tired of getting slaughtered every time you high-muckety-mucks get pissed at each other" movement by the lower classes. It may even spell the beginning of the end of the feudal system in Westeros. Darrick: Sep 10th 6:37 PM From what I understand, the feudal system in RL came to end for many different reasons. There was an evolution of technology that made the knight(the military and political elite of the feudal system) cease to be king of the battlefield. Kings also began to grab power from local lords, removing a check on their own power. Towns, and cities grew, which presumably lent still more power to the central authority. I believe guilds and the merchant class also grew during this period as well. And the Black plague depopulated Europe to such an extent that individual labor became more valuable further eroding the feudal structure. There are many people on this board who've probably forgotten more about the middle ages than I ever knew. Does this partial list of the causes of feudalism's decline seem accurate? I suspect I'm taking various events throughout the end of the middle ages, and before the Renaissance, and making them contemporary. Regardless, how does it match up with what's going on in the story? If anything, the individual lords seem _more_ powerful. The Tyrells and the Martells are a power unto hemselves at this point. The technology of Westeros has been stagnant for millenia, it doesn't seem likely to change soon(unless its brought over from the far East). Perhaps magic will fill the role that technology did in real life. Towns and cities also appear to be fairly stable, and unable to raise sufficient military forces. The brotherhood may not a succesful example for a peasent revolt against feudalism since they can't provide a different economic model than the standard feudal one. Someone like Petyr Baelish might though, since he is a little capitalist at heart. Maybe he foreshadows the rise of a new mercantile class...perhaps in alliance with their associates over the narrow sea. As for a plague to help wipe away the old order...Will the Others fit the bill? They could inflict such damage that the only way to salvage Westeros' civlization is for a strong king to take over, and create a powerful central authority. Alliance with the lands to the east could stimulate trade and bring in technology needed to survive and prosper. Maybe Dany, supported by people like Littlefinger and Illyrio, will take power from the nobles and become an absolute monarch. Anyway, its interesting to speculate on what the future of Westeros will be. Are we seeing a new age emerge, or, assuming everyone survives winter, will society remain at the status quo? Ran: User ID: 0743024 Sep 10th 7:06 PM You know, it might be best to shift this into another topic. Announcements isn't exactly the most appropriate. ;)
Ran User ID: 0743024	Sep 10th 8:35 PM Note that the last one, about moving the topic, no longer applies. Thanks to Darrick for doing the copying task. :) It's an interesting topic, and I'll post some thoughts tomorrow when I'm more awake. ;)
Maeglin User ID: 0707654	Sep 12th 2:12 AM Darrick you are quite right about the black plague being the reason for the decline of fuedalism, with so many people dead those who survived could demand a higher price for their labor and to pay for this many of the nobles had to sell small portions of their land this took sole control of land away from the nobility and placed it into the hands of more commoners, with people now owning and working their own land the nobilty became obselete.