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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings III / Phantom Dragon II

Next 20 Messages

Alexaendra
User ID: 1509104 May 28th 3:56 PM
In the COK II board, there was a topic called, "The Phantom Dragon", and it was very interesting.
I know that usually people post the LAST few posts, but I am posting the first because it goes right to the point of what I am going to say. I completely think this theory is true. I reread the pages that she marked because when I first read COK, I had almost the same theory, but I thought that it was just a "vision of things to come" so to say. I thought perhaps since Bran has had visions of things to come, why couldn't Summer? If Bran can remeber things from wolf dreams when he awakes, could Summer know things that Bran knows? Of course, since there are no wolf POV's we can't know if this is true. Enough of my looney rambling...but tell me what you think. I have a tendency to get confusing =)
----------------
Wethers
User ID: 2205324
Aug 19th 0:03 AM
Hi all. I'm new - tremendous set of boards you have here. And here I thought I was so original to think of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

There's one minor detail I have never seen discussed. It's loony and it's not even really a theory, but bear with me. Was there _some_ beast or spirit hibernating beneath the walls of Winterfell's First Keep that was woken by Ramsay Snow's sacking at the end of aCoK? Wait, before you start laughing, keep reading.

First go to one of Dany's visions in the chamber of the Undying (p. 530, US hardback): "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...". Ok, this by itself means little.

Next go to the last chapter, where Bran, as Summer, experiences the following outside a burning Winterfell (p. 719): "...in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars."

Well, it's clear that Summer knows what ordinary fire looks like, and he sees something specific on top of that which sounds an awful lot like a description of a dragon, or at least a powerful vision of one. Then again, the smoke and ash are in his eyes and the winged snake vanishes just as quickly as it appears.

Ok now skip to a throw-away hint GRRM gives us later in the same chapter (p. 725): "We made noise enough ***to wake a dragon***" Osha said, "but there's no one come. The castle's dead and burned, just as Bran dreamed..." (emphasis mine)

Also, look up the page a bit at GRRM's description of the First Keep - it is in the worst shape of anything around it, and looks almost as if something broke _out_ of it, knocking over one of the walls in the process.

Ok, I admit, this is most likely a ruse, or even completely unintentional - though I doubt that. Still, didn't GRRM indicate that it was possible that there were unhatched Dragon eggs about somewhere. If that, why not a hibernating dragon that only wakes when it is surrounded by cataclysmic fire and death (much like the hatching of Dany's eggs). At the very least, it makes you wonder just where those "hot springs" that heat Winterfell's walls come from ... =)

out

Wethers

Wethers
User ID: 0247944 May 29th 3:25 AM
Whoa ... someone remembered my silly theory !
Perhaps it's time to stop lurking. =)

out

Wethers

Padraig
User ID: 9377263 May 29th 1:46 PM
Well. It was a cool theory when first mentioned and its still a cool theory. But I have to wonder what a grown dragon was doing in Winterfell all these hundreds of years.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 May 29th 2:17 PM
Probably nesting somewhere in the north when the Long Night came, then taking off to the only place nearby which had some warmth left (where Winterfell is now), and went into hibernation there.

Looney theories on the Net, since 96...

Padraig
User ID: 9377263 May 29th 2:19 PM
Wasn't Winterfell around during the Long Night? I would have thought they would notice a dragon crawling underneath the place.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 29th 2:23 PM
A lot of things happen about 8,000 years ago. The Long Night, for example, and the legendary raising of Winterfell by Bran of Builder.

There may be a connection. It's impossible to tell. :)

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 May 30th 10:38 AM
Hodor fed the dragon, and kept it strong and happy...but seriously...it would be cool if there were Ice dragons as well as Fire dragons - but that doesn't fit...but would still be cool.

Tom R.
User ID: 8583623 May 30th 10:47 AM
I think it's a neat idea, though I'm not sure how plausible it is. One thing I've wondered for some time, though, is whether there are other eggs about. Surely Dany didn't have the only ones--and I wonder whether the intensity of the fire has any effect on the rate of dragon growth. Perhaps a really intense fire, such as the one at Winterfell, might have a more dramatic effect on a dragon egg than the relatively small one overseen by Dany et al.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 May 30th 10:50 AM
Speaking of Ice dragons, did you know that GRRM wrote a story called the Ice Dragon? It is the closest of his older works to the world of aSoIaF in my opinion and a damn good story.

Lodengarl
User ID: 1822634 May 30th 1:13 PM
Ser Benjen...where is this story? Where can I get it? Thanks.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 May 30th 1:30 PM
It's in GRRM's anthology "Portraits of His Children". It might be out of print, but you can order a copy from GRRM, info is at:

http://www.mandala.net/grrmartin/

Or you can find a couple copies for sale on Ebay, if you look up items that have George R.R. Martin's name in them.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 May 31st 11:50 PM
Interesting theory.

Alexaendra
User ID: 1509104 Jun 1st 5:26 PM
Evidently, I wasn't being too clear about my question, so I'll re-phrase it. (I do tend to get a little off-track on things...) My new (and sort of first) question is...
Do you think that, as a wolf, Summer can see things into the future when Bran is dreaming his wolf dreams?
I am asking this because Bran can see and smell things and basically feel what it is like to be a wolf, but can Summer see visions of things to come? Such as, visions of Dany's dragon(s) flying over Winterfell? That is what I meant by the part in the question about Summer.
Personally, I think that he can.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jun 1st 6:11 PM
I think he can see magical things or mysterious things, but what those are, specifically, I don't know.

Perhaps he can "sense" the Others easily. Perhaps he can communicate with heart trees somehow. Perhaps he can "communicate" with the Children of the Forest. I don't doubt that he has powers as a creature of the old gods (or atleast a creature of the north, where the old gods still have influence).

Another question, are the Stark direwolves different than "normal" direwolves, or is it the Stark children themselves who are different? Or both?

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Jun 2nd 4:52 PM
A bit of both I imagine. I would say the direwolves are different from normal direwolves. How can you explain 6 wolves appearing out of nowhere fitting the Stark children so well otherwise?

I think we have to learn a lot more about this warg connection the Starks have with their wolves.

Blackstone
User ID: 9858163 Jun 14th 1:30 PM
Interesting theory, I pride myself on being a careful reader and I failed to make the connection at all, hats off....

By the way, Winterfell had always had a "steam heating system" allegedly from some hot springs or some such.

Makes me wonder, whether the Shadow Dragon was slumbering because of the hot springs being nice and comfy for Dragons, or whether the Dragon was the reason for the "hot springs"

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jun 20th 6:00 PM
Interesting ideas.

If it really was a Dragon and it was the result of the hot springs, it would have had to have been there for a LONG time. Wasn't Winterfell founded thousands of years ago? I am thinking that it was founded after the first long winter ended, but that is just a guess. Also, why did Winterfell become the center of northern power instead of one of the other places, such as the Dreadfort or White Harbor? Sure, the Starks may have just been tougher. However, perhaps Winterfell is the site of an important event from the time period PRIOR to it being built. Perhaps where that one hero finally found the Children, or perhaps the site of a big battle (maybe a dragon fought some powerful beast of the Others and either died or retired there below ground, thus the hot springs). The Starks have held sway for many, many centuries, perhaps Winterfell or the location of Winterfell have a more active role in maintaining the Stark dominance than we have been led to believe.

Heck, maybe that dragon was imprisoned by the Others or by the Children at one point or another and the razing of Winterfell freed it after all those centuries. That would sort of fit into Theon's apparent fate, screwing up things as much as humanly possible.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 20th 6:16 PM
Legend has it that Brandon the Builder laid the foundation of Winterfell 8,000 years ago, and the Stark line has existed for the same amount of time. Uncoincidentally, the Long Night's end and the founding of the Night's Watch is also dated at 8,000 years ago.

Padraig
User ID: 8548253 Jun 21st 4:55 PM
Some very interesting stuff there MAD-ness. Got me thinking;)

Jaeger
User ID: 0178794 Jun 21st 7:37 PM
Well, considering the name "Winterfell"...some how I could easily see it as one of, if not the final battle ground for the long night. Also, strength wise it really is the heart of the north putting it at a nice central place, thats got to be good for maintaining a rule.

Next 20 Messages

Alexaendra User ID: 1509104	May 28th 3:56 PM In the COK II board, there was a topic called, "The Phantom Dragon", and it was very interesting. I know that usually people post the LAST few posts, but I am posting the first because it goes right to the point of what I am going to say. I completely think this theory is true. I reread the pages that she marked because when I first read COK, I had almost the same theory, but I thought that it was just a "vision of things to come" so to say. I thought perhaps since Bran has had visions of things to come, why couldn't Summer? If Bran can remeber things from wolf dreams when he awakes, could Summer know things that Bran knows? Of course, since there are no wolf POV's we can't know if this is true. Enough of my looney rambling...but tell me what you think. I have a tendency to get confusing =) ---------------- Wethers User ID: 2205324 Aug 19th 0:03 AM Hi all. I'm new - tremendous set of boards you have here. And here I thought I was so original to think of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. There's one minor detail I have never seen discussed. It's loony and it's not even really a theory, but bear with me. Was there _some_ beast or spirit hibernating beneath the walls of Winterfell's First Keep that was woken by Ramsay Snow's sacking at the end of aCoK? Wait, before you start laughing, keep reading. First go to one of Dany's visions in the chamber of the Undying (p. 530, US hardback): "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...". Ok, this by itself means little. Next go to the last chapter, where Bran, as Summer, experiences the following outside a burning Winterfell (p. 719): "...in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars." Well, it's clear that Summer knows what ordinary fire looks like, and he sees something specific on top of that which sounds an awful lot like a description of a dragon, or at least a powerful vision of one. Then again, the smoke and ash are in his eyes and the winged snake vanishes just as quickly as it appears. Ok now skip to a throw-away hint GRRM gives us later in the same chapter (p. 725): "We made noise enough *to wake a dragon*" Osha said, "but there's no one come. The castle's dead and burned, just as Bran dreamed..." (emphasis mine) Also, look up the page a bit at GRRM's description of the First Keep - it is in the worst shape of anything around it, and looks almost as if something broke _out_ of it, knocking over one of the walls in the process. Ok, I admit, this is most likely a ruse, or even completely unintentional - though I doubt that. Still, didn't GRRM indicate that it was possible that there were unhatched Dragon eggs about somewhere. If that, why not a hibernating dragon that only wakes when it is surrounded by cataclysmic fire and death (much like the hatching of Dany's eggs). At the very least, it makes you wonder just where those "hot springs" that heat Winterfell's walls come from ... =) out Wethers
Wethers User ID: 0247944	May 29th 3:25 AM Whoa ... someone remembered my silly theory ! Perhaps it's time to stop lurking. =) out Wethers
Padraig User ID: 9377263	May 29th 1:46 PM Well. It was a cool theory when first mentioned and its still a cool theory. But I have to wonder what a grown dragon was doing in Winterfell all these hundreds of years.
KAH User ID: 0541004	May 29th 2:17 PM Probably nesting somewhere in the north when the Long Night came, then taking off to the only place nearby which had some warmth left (where Winterfell is now), and went into hibernation there. Looney theories on the Net, since 96...
Padraig User ID: 9377263	May 29th 2:19 PM Wasn't Winterfell around during the Long Night? I would have thought they would notice a dragon crawling underneath the place.
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 29th 2:23 PM A lot of things happen about 8,000 years ago. The Long Night, for example, and the legendary raising of Winterfell by Bran of Builder. There may be a connection. It's impossible to tell. :)
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	May 30th 10:38 AM Hodor fed the dragon, and kept it strong and happy...but seriously...it would be cool if there were Ice dragons as well as Fire dragons - but that doesn't fit...but would still be cool.
Tom R. User ID: 8583623	May 30th 10:47 AM I think it's a neat idea, though I'm not sure how plausible it is. One thing I've wondered for some time, though, is whether there are other eggs about. Surely Dany didn't have the only ones--and I wonder whether the intensity of the fire has any effect on the rate of dragon growth. Perhaps a really intense fire, such as the one at Winterfell, might have a more dramatic effect on a dragon egg than the relatively small one overseen by Dany et al.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	May 30th 10:50 AM Speaking of Ice dragons, did you know that GRRM wrote a story called the Ice Dragon? It is the closest of his older works to the world of aSoIaF in my opinion and a damn good story.
Lodengarl User ID: 1822634	May 30th 1:13 PM Ser Benjen...where is this story? Where can I get it? Thanks.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	May 30th 1:30 PM It's in GRRM's anthology "Portraits of His Children". It might be out of print, but you can order a copy from GRRM, info is at: http://www.mandala.net/grrmartin/ Or you can find a couple copies for sale on Ebay, if you look up items that have George R.R. Martin's name in them.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	May 31st 11:50 PM Interesting theory.
Alexaendra User ID: 1509104	Jun 1st 5:26 PM Evidently, I wasn't being too clear about my question, so I'll re-phrase it. (I do tend to get a little off-track on things...) My new (and sort of first) question is... Do you think that, as a wolf, Summer can see things into the future when Bran is dreaming his wolf dreams? I am asking this because Bran can see and smell things and basically feel what it is like to be a wolf, but can Summer see visions of things to come? Such as, visions of Dany's dragon(s) flying over Winterfell? That is what I meant by the part in the question about Summer. Personally, I think that he can.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jun 1st 6:11 PM I think he can see magical things or mysterious things, but what those are, specifically, I don't know. Perhaps he can "sense" the Others easily. Perhaps he can communicate with heart trees somehow. Perhaps he can "communicate" with the Children of the Forest. I don't doubt that he has powers as a creature of the old gods (or atleast a creature of the north, where the old gods still have influence). Another question, are the Stark direwolves different than "normal" direwolves, or is it the Stark children themselves who are different? Or both?
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Jun 2nd 4:52 PM A bit of both I imagine. I would say the direwolves are different from normal direwolves. How can you explain 6 wolves appearing out of nowhere fitting the Stark children so well otherwise? I think we have to learn a lot more about this warg connection the Starks have with their wolves.
Blackstone User ID: 9858163	Jun 14th 1:30 PM Interesting theory, I pride myself on being a careful reader and I failed to make the connection at all, hats off.... By the way, Winterfell had always had a "steam heating system" allegedly from some hot springs or some such. Makes me wonder, whether the Shadow Dragon was slumbering because of the hot springs being nice and comfy for Dragons, or whether the Dragon was the reason for the "hot springs"
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jun 20th 6:00 PM Interesting ideas. If it really was a Dragon and it was the result of the hot springs, it would have had to have been there for a LONG time. Wasn't Winterfell founded thousands of years ago? I am thinking that it was founded after the first long winter ended, but that is just a guess. Also, why did Winterfell become the center of northern power instead of one of the other places, such as the Dreadfort or White Harbor? Sure, the Starks may have just been tougher. However, perhaps Winterfell is the site of an important event from the time period PRIOR to it being built. Perhaps where that one hero finally found the Children, or perhaps the site of a big battle (maybe a dragon fought some powerful beast of the Others and either died or retired there below ground, thus the hot springs). The Starks have held sway for many, many centuries, perhaps Winterfell or the location of Winterfell have a more active role in maintaining the Stark dominance than we have been led to believe. Heck, maybe that dragon was imprisoned by the Others or by the Children at one point or another and the razing of Winterfell freed it after all those centuries. That would sort of fit into Theon's apparent fate, screwing up things as much as humanly possible.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 20th 6:16 PM Legend has it that Brandon the Builder laid the foundation of Winterfell 8,000 years ago, and the Stark line has existed for the same amount of time. Uncoincidentally, the Long Night's end and the founding of the Night's Watch is also dated at 8,000 years ago.
Padraig User ID: 8548253	Jun 21st 4:55 PM Some very interesting stuff there MAD-ness. Got me thinking;)
Jaeger User ID: 0178794	Jun 21st 7:37 PM Well, considering the name "Winterfell"...some how I could easily see it as one of, if not the final battle ground for the long night. Also, strength wise it really is the heart of the north putting it at a nice central place, thats got to be good for maintaining a rule.