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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings III / House Prestige

Next 20 Messages

Anon
User ID: 0038914 Jun 4th 11:58 AM
Jorah Mormont mentioned that the Hightowers were considered far above his House.

So which dozen or so of the lesser houses do you think are the most prestigious at the beginning of aGoT, and why (the Estermonts because of their family connections, or the Redwynes because of their famous ancestors/fleet etc).

Dirjj
User ID: 8659853 Jun 4th 2:28 PM
House Martel - Obviously because they rule
Dorne. Are they wardens of the South too? I actually don't recall if there was one.

House Dayne - They're the right hand of the Martel's

House Royce - They seem to be the most powerful bannerman of the Arryns.

Ok, I'll give everyone else a chance.

ab

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 4th 2:57 PM
In the north, I think that the most powerful Houses are Karstark (3000 swords), Bolton, Umber and Manderly (1500 swords, but I suspect that they weren't really exerting themselves). Mormonts are a rather weak House, actually, because they have so little land and no particulary valuable resources.
I expect that the Manderlys are the richest northern House besides(?) the Starks - they own the only big harbor and Lord Manderly certainly can afford and impressive entourage.

In the Riverlands House Frey clearly is very important - they could field 4K troops and are rumored to be quite rich. I think that House Mallister also is quite powerful. Interestingly enough, House Whent isn't, even though Harrenhal's lands are said to be very fertile.

In the Reach House Redwyne is very powerful - they not only have the biggest fleet, but also have a wine empire. House Hightower must be very rich and powerful, since they own the oldest and biggest city in Westeros, which is also a major trade hub.
House Florent can field 2000 swords, but I feel that they are rather in the middle range for the Reach.

I really would like to know which of the Houses are major and how many swords they fielded for the war... Another thing that should be in appendices, IMHO...

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jun 4th 9:30 PM
IIRC Mace Tyrrell is Warden of the South
The Florents are a pretty powerful family, or they were. In the riverlands, the Freys and Mallisters seem to be the most powerful under the Tully's. The Tarly's also seem to be respected, judging by Catelyns thoughts when she arrives at Bitterbridge.
Some lords hold power, when their house is not particularly high, such as Davos and Gregor.
I think prestige is largely decided by land and wealth

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Jun 4th 11:05 PM
There's something about all this that bugs me. Why do the Tullys have so few swords?

The riverlands apparently are very fertile and cover a pretty good swath of territory. Should be pretty heavily populated, yet they really don't seem able to muster much above 20k. Why is that?

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Jun 5th 1:06 AM
It's funny, what is powerful by Riverland or Northern standards is middle of the road by the Reach standards.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 5th 5:47 AM
I think the Tullys turn out a better number than 20k, but the problem is that when we've met them, they've been largely dispersed to the four corners and cut to bits piecemeal.

I could very well buy 30k or so for them, under optimal conditions.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 5th 8:00 AM
Also, the Riverlands seems to be where much of the warring took place in the War against Aerys - especially considering how the Riverland houses split in their allegiance.

I'd venture a guess that the Riverland population might not have recovered fully after that war. I could well be mistaken here, though...

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 5th 8:48 AM
30k seems more reasonable to me, but still a bit low. There is an awful lot of land between Riverrun and Harrenhal. Kay-Arne might have hit on the best explanation, though.

But to take this a litle further...

Where is the dividing line between Lannister and Tyrell lands? Seems to me that the description of Tyrell sway leaves little land for the Lannisters. Yet, they clearly have the ability to field a good-size force, though I admit that much of that may be sellswords/freeriders. I suppose they may have more of an "urban" population, miners and such, and therefore can raise more troops from less territory.

Blackstone
User ID: 9858163 Jun 5th 10:37 AM
I think that the Tully's had alot of swords but they have problems. One, Edmure is not really with the program and his primary army was smashed beneath Riverrun by Jaime. Two, lots of space to protect. Three, the Freys (probably the second most powerful of the Tully bannermen) aren't exactly what I would call reliable.

Werther
User ID: 1731514 Jun 5th 11:33 AM
Order of Battle would have been nice but I think you people have managed pretty good at counting up the forces. I know my own ideas of the troop strenghts were pretty vague. My impressions are that Tywin would be keeping the largest forces in peace time. The Red Cloaks sound like a regular military unit. Were as the Gold Cloaks for instance seem more like a police force. I know if I was Tywin I would keep as large a force as practical to protecting the gold business. Sounds like he has a monopoly.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 5th 11:47 AM
Werther, I think you've got it flipped. Goldcloaks are the name of the Lannisters household guard -- a permanent force. Redcloaks are the city watch of King's Landing. Technically, they are independent of any one House. In terms of relative size, GRRM has said that the Tyrells have the most troops, while the Lannisters are the wealthiest house.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 5th 11:59 AM
You have it flipped, Jeff. :)

The Goldcloaks are the City Watch of King's Landing, which means they're de facto the guards of whichever king sits on the Iron Throne. The Redcloaks (I don't think they're ever called that) are the Lannister household guard, so they're not independent of the Lannisters.

As Tyrion has noted, Lord Tywin doesn't consider guards to be the same as soldiers. They're a "unit," if one has to use the term, who go about policing and bodyguarding.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 5th 12:47 PM
Ran, Tywin doesn't consider the "watchmen" to be soldiers. Although, IMHO they should have a much better training and discipline than the bulk of the feodal levies, but well...

The household guards are the only real soldiers in Westeros, apart from the knights and likely have a much better discipline than the latter, because they are organized in cohesive units of long standing. There are also mercenaries, but we know what Tywin thinks about those as well.

And yes, I expect that Tywin has an impressive household guard (not the measly 200 I'll wager) and likely there is a City Watch at Lannisport as well. And I'd guess that after the Greyjoy rebellion it (the Watch) is quite thoroughly trained as well.

But yes, I think that it should be time for someone to realise that a small but well-trained and disciplined standing army would be a useful thing to have around. The levy system never worked in RL as well as it does in ASOIAF, so that's why they have such a hard time of grasping the concept, I guess.

Anyway, what I really don't understand, is why the banners sworn to KL haven't been called. I recently looked at the heraldry page and there are about 20 noble Houses sworn to it. IMHO, they should yield at least 8-10K. Enough to sway the war. Enough for Tyrion to beat Stannis without help. So why were Rosby and Stokeworth the only ones called?

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 5th 1:04 PM
Crap. Serves me right for being a know-it-all.

labor, good point about the banners sworn to KL. Maybe the problem was that they weren't the most loyal group, and some might have owed allegiance to someone other than the Lannisters. BTW, what does it mean to be sworn to "King's Landing"? Aren't such oaths personal oaths, sworn to a specific lord or family? Does that mean just "sworn to the King?"

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 5th 1:26 PM
The idea that watchmen are better trained than soldiers may be true -- better trained to be watchmen, that is. The organization and techniques used in policing a city are very different from those on a battlefield.

You don't send police officers -- even S.W.A.T -- to do the job of the U.S. Army, if we want to draw a modern analogy. While even so it's true that most watchmen would, as a matter of course, be better personal fighters, I'm not certain that a unit on them on the battlefield would really be especially useful.

Jeff,

I think that's it, essentially, that they're houses who are sworn to the king. For the last couple of hundred years they were essentially Targaryen bannerhouses -- and it explains much why they're weak now, if they were (as GRRM has suggested in some mail or other) the primary force that the Targaryens relied on during the civil war. They would have been hit hard.

Further, I have a feeling that Joffrey's grasp was really not much further than the walls of King's Landing. I suspect lords generally refused, ignored, or ducked the summons to arms. Most of them probably decided to sit and see what happens next, and there was precious little that Cersei could do about it.

For support of this idea:

You'll notice that the two KL nobles we hear most of are the Stokeworths and the Rosbys, who are practically a stonesthrow away from KL.

On the other hand, the Dunningtons, who are rather more than a stonesthrow away, and the Wendwaters and Masseys, who could as easily be Baratheon bannermen given their locations, aren't present at all as far as GRRM describes.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 5th 2:09 PM
Ran, the watchmen still sound better than the feodal foot levies or freeriders. They seem to be skilled with a variety of weapons - i.e. spears, crossbows, swords and some of them even with lances, i.e. are trained to fight ahorse. They are also used to living under some sort of discipline and consider themselves belonging to a single organization. Additionally, there is a unique opportunity to put really deserving people in command.

IMHO all things being equal within a month you can make a better cohesive fighting force from the watchmen than from a random collection of farmers and hedge-knights, whose loyality and command is split between lots of lords, landed knights, etc .

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 5th 2:15 PM
I can't think of a single major battle in feudal Europe where a city's watch played any significant role in a battle outside the walls. Okay, I do seem to remember one but I can't remember the specifics.

I'd agree that the Watch would be superior to a peasant levy carrying rakes and scythes. But I think they'd be pretty crummy against men-at-arms or most mercenaries. I'm not too sure of their level of discipline either. They seem more like bouncers, maybe brawling type guys, than discipline soldiers.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 5th 2:27 PM
Yes, but in Europe the city Watch never provided the household guard for a king either. Or the military garrison of the capital. And KL City Watch seemed pretty proficient with a variety of weapons. Including spitefires, catapults, trebuchets, etc.

I guess that it would all depend on what you understand under men-at-arms. If you mean the household guard of the lords, then I'll agree with you. OTOH, their great drawback is that they aren't under any sort of cohesive command. If you mean the foot levies which Westerosi nobles hastily armed from their own coffers (contrary to the good European practices where they had to procure their weapons/armor themselves), then the Watch should be superior. Mercenaries, especially mercenary companies would likely be superior as well, but Westerosi seem reluctant to employ them.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 5th 3:11 PM
Didn't Tyrion make the City Watch train extensively with the use of spitfires, wrt using wildfire?
I don't know if this speaks in favor of them being very proficient in the use of them beforehand...

Next 20 Messages

Anon User ID: 0038914	Jun 4th 11:58 AM Jorah Mormont mentioned that the Hightowers were considered far above his House. So which dozen or so of the lesser houses do you think are the most prestigious at the beginning of aGoT, and why (the Estermonts because of their family connections, or the Redwynes because of their famous ancestors/fleet etc).
Dirjj User ID: 8659853	Jun 4th 2:28 PM House Martel - Obviously because they rule Dorne. Are they wardens of the South too? I actually don't recall if there was one. House Dayne - They're the right hand of the Martel's House Royce - They seem to be the most powerful bannerman of the Arryns. Ok, I'll give everyone else a chance. ab
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 4th 2:57 PM In the north, I think that the most powerful Houses are Karstark (3000 swords), Bolton, Umber and Manderly (1500 swords, but I suspect that they weren't really exerting themselves). Mormonts are a rather weak House, actually, because they have so little land and no particulary valuable resources. I expect that the Manderlys are the richest northern House besides(?) the Starks - they own the only big harbor and Lord Manderly certainly can afford and impressive entourage. In the Riverlands House Frey clearly is very important - they could field 4K troops and are rumored to be quite rich. I think that House Mallister also is quite powerful. Interestingly enough, House Whent isn't, even though Harrenhal's lands are said to be very fertile. In the Reach House Redwyne is very powerful - they not only have the biggest fleet, but also have a wine empire. House Hightower must be very rich and powerful, since they own the oldest and biggest city in Westeros, which is also a major trade hub. House Florent can field 2000 swords, but I feel that they are rather in the middle range for the Reach. I really would like to know which of the Houses are major and how many swords they fielded for the war... Another thing that should be in appendices, IMHO...
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jun 4th 9:30 PM IIRC Mace Tyrrell is Warden of the South The Florents are a pretty powerful family, or they were. In the riverlands, the Freys and Mallisters seem to be the most powerful under the Tully's. The Tarly's also seem to be respected, judging by Catelyns thoughts when she arrives at Bitterbridge. Some lords hold power, when their house is not particularly high, such as Davos and Gregor. I think prestige is largely decided by land and wealth
Jeff User ID: 8813033	Jun 4th 11:05 PM There's something about all this that bugs me. Why do the Tullys have so few swords? The riverlands apparently are very fertile and cover a pretty good swath of territory. Should be pretty heavily populated, yet they really don't seem able to muster much above 20k. Why is that?
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Jun 5th 1:06 AM It's funny, what is powerful by Riverland or Northern standards is middle of the road by the Reach standards.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 5th 5:47 AM I think the Tullys turn out a better number than 20k, but the problem is that when we've met them, they've been largely dispersed to the four corners and cut to bits piecemeal. I could very well buy 30k or so for them, under optimal conditions.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 5th 8:00 AM Also, the Riverlands seems to be where much of the warring took place in the War against Aerys - especially considering how the Riverland houses split in their allegiance. I'd venture a guess that the Riverland population might not have recovered fully after that war. I could well be mistaken here, though...
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 5th 8:48 AM 30k seems more reasonable to me, but still a bit low. There is an awful lot of land between Riverrun and Harrenhal. Kay-Arne might have hit on the best explanation, though. But to take this a litle further... Where is the dividing line between Lannister and Tyrell lands? Seems to me that the description of Tyrell sway leaves little land for the Lannisters. Yet, they clearly have the ability to field a good-size force, though I admit that much of that may be sellswords/freeriders. I suppose they may have more of an "urban" population, miners and such, and therefore can raise more troops from less territory.
Blackstone User ID: 9858163	Jun 5th 10:37 AM I think that the Tully's had alot of swords but they have problems. One, Edmure is not really with the program and his primary army was smashed beneath Riverrun by Jaime. Two, lots of space to protect. Three, the Freys (probably the second most powerful of the Tully bannermen) aren't exactly what I would call reliable.
Werther User ID: 1731514	Jun 5th 11:33 AM Order of Battle would have been nice but I think you people have managed pretty good at counting up the forces. I know my own ideas of the troop strenghts were pretty vague. My impressions are that Tywin would be keeping the largest forces in peace time. The Red Cloaks sound like a regular military unit. Were as the Gold Cloaks for instance seem more like a police force. I know if I was Tywin I would keep as large a force as practical to protecting the gold business. Sounds like he has a monopoly.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 5th 11:47 AM Werther, I think you've got it flipped. Goldcloaks are the name of the Lannisters household guard -- a permanent force. Redcloaks are the city watch of King's Landing. Technically, they are independent of any one House. In terms of relative size, GRRM has said that the Tyrells have the most troops, while the Lannisters are the wealthiest house.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 5th 11:59 AM You have it flipped, Jeff. :) The Goldcloaks are the City Watch of King's Landing, which means they're de facto the guards of whichever king sits on the Iron Throne. The Redcloaks (I don't think they're ever called that) are the Lannister household guard, so they're not independent of the Lannisters. As Tyrion has noted, Lord Tywin doesn't consider guards to be the same as soldiers. They're a "unit," if one has to use the term, who go about policing and bodyguarding.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 5th 12:47 PM Ran, Tywin doesn't consider the "watchmen" to be soldiers. Although, IMHO they should have a much better training and discipline than the bulk of the feodal levies, but well... The household guards are the only real soldiers in Westeros, apart from the knights and likely have a much better discipline than the latter, because they are organized in cohesive units of long standing. There are also mercenaries, but we know what Tywin thinks about those as well. And yes, I expect that Tywin has an impressive household guard (not the measly 200 I'll wager) and likely there is a City Watch at Lannisport as well. And I'd guess that after the Greyjoy rebellion it (the Watch) is quite thoroughly trained as well. But yes, I think that it should be time for someone to realise that a small but well-trained and disciplined standing army would be a useful thing to have around. The levy system never worked in RL as well as it does in ASOIAF, so that's why they have such a hard time of grasping the concept, I guess. Anyway, what I really don't understand, is why the banners sworn to KL haven't been called. I recently looked at the heraldry page and there are about 20 noble Houses sworn to it. IMHO, they should yield at least 8-10K. Enough to sway the war. Enough for Tyrion to beat Stannis without help. So why were Rosby and Stokeworth the only ones called?
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 5th 1:04 PM Crap. Serves me right for being a know-it-all. labor, good point about the banners sworn to KL. Maybe the problem was that they weren't the most loyal group, and some might have owed allegiance to someone other than the Lannisters. BTW, what does it mean to be sworn to "King's Landing"? Aren't such oaths personal oaths, sworn to a specific lord or family? Does that mean just "sworn to the King?"
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 5th 1:26 PM The idea that watchmen are better trained than soldiers may be true -- better trained to be watchmen, that is. The organization and techniques used in policing a city are very different from those on a battlefield. You don't send police officers -- even S.W.A.T -- to do the job of the U.S. Army, if we want to draw a modern analogy. While even so it's true that most watchmen would, as a matter of course, be better personal fighters, I'm not certain that a unit on them on the battlefield would really be especially useful. Jeff, I think that's it, essentially, that they're houses who are sworn to the king. For the last couple of hundred years they were essentially Targaryen bannerhouses -- and it explains much why they're weak now, if they were (as GRRM has suggested in some mail or other) the primary force that the Targaryens relied on during the civil war. They would have been hit hard. Further, I have a feeling that Joffrey's grasp was really not much further than the walls of King's Landing. I suspect lords generally refused, ignored, or ducked the summons to arms. Most of them probably decided to sit and see what happens next, and there was precious little that Cersei could do about it. For support of this idea: You'll notice that the two KL nobles we hear most of are the Stokeworths and the Rosbys, who are practically a stonesthrow away from KL. On the other hand, the Dunningtons, who are rather more than a stonesthrow away, and the Wendwaters and Masseys, who could as easily be Baratheon bannermen given their locations, aren't present at all as far as GRRM describes.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 5th 2:09 PM Ran, the watchmen still sound better than the feodal foot levies or freeriders. They seem to be skilled with a variety of weapons - i.e. spears, crossbows, swords and some of them even with lances, i.e. are trained to fight ahorse. They are also used to living under some sort of discipline and consider themselves belonging to a single organization. Additionally, there is a unique opportunity to put really deserving people in command. IMHO all things being equal within a month you can make a better cohesive fighting force from the watchmen than from a random collection of farmers and hedge-knights, whose loyality and command is split between lots of lords, landed knights, etc .
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 5th 2:15 PM I can't think of a single major battle in feudal Europe where a city's watch played any significant role in a battle outside the walls. Okay, I do seem to remember one but I can't remember the specifics. I'd agree that the Watch would be superior to a peasant levy carrying rakes and scythes. But I think they'd be pretty crummy against men-at-arms or most mercenaries. I'm not too sure of their level of discipline either. They seem more like bouncers, maybe brawling type guys, than discipline soldiers.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 5th 2:27 PM Yes, but in Europe the city Watch never provided the household guard for a king either. Or the military garrison of the capital. And KL City Watch seemed pretty proficient with a variety of weapons. Including spitefires, catapults, trebuchets, etc. I guess that it would all depend on what you understand under men-at-arms. If you mean the household guard of the lords, then I'll agree with you. OTOH, their great drawback is that they aren't under any sort of cohesive command. If you mean the foot levies which Westerosi nobles hastily armed from their own coffers (contrary to the good European practices where they had to procure their weapons/armor themselves), then the Watch should be superior. Mercenaries, especially mercenary companies would likely be superior as well, but Westerosi seem reluctant to employ them.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 5th 3:11 PM Didn't Tyrion make the City Watch train extensively with the use of spitfires, wrt using wildfire? I don't know if this speaks in favor of them being very proficient in the use of them beforehand...