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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings III / Frey Marriage to Arya

Next 20 Messages

Lommy Greenhands
User ID: 9377263 Jun 13th 2:51 AM
I was rereading ACOK and was at the part where Arya sees Elmar Frey crying because he has lost his princess and will have to marry someone else or become a septon, because "We've been dishonored." My question is why have they been dishonored, or is it because they believe Arya , who is his betrothed to be dead.

SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY
User ID: 0436494 Jun 13th 4:50 AM
I WOULD SAY IT IS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE ARYA TO BE DEAD.

Nynaeve
User ID: 2345204 Jun 13th 5:22 PM
You know, that's the one part that made me read 200 times to figure it out. My conclusion is that they meant Arya as well. Which, of course, is the irony of him telling this to her and her exclamtion, "I hope she dies!"

Nyn

Emily
User ID: 2192024 Jun 14th 8:12 AM
I've never understood whether it means the Freys have dishonoured themselves, and are therefore withdrawing from the proposed marriage to Arya as they are unworthy of it (unlikely, given the Freys' high opinion of themselves, and their rather fluid concept of honour) or whether they are claiming that the Starks dishonoured the Freys (how?) and so the Freys are deserting them.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Jun 14th 8:46 AM
There were alot of consessions that were made to Lord Walder When Robb crossed the Twins. I don't know if I rememeber them all but:

Robb is supposed to Marry a Frey as is Arya.

Robb took one of Walders son's a s a squire and Two of the Frey boys were sent to Winterfell.

That agreement between Stark and Frey can be seen as fallen through in a couple ways.

Arya being presumed dead is one. Big and Little Walder being captured in the fall of Winterfell in another. The question is about the timing of the events in the book and means of communication. If Walder Frey learned about Arya, who did he hear it from? Same question about the Walders.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Jun 14th 8:48 AM
I think just as likely that Lord Walder heard of the Lannister - Tyrell alliance and decided he was on the wrong side of the fence. Getting out of the deal is a matter of rationalization for him at that point.

MILEN
User ID: 0658904 Jun 14th 9:39 AM
I agree with you Ser Benjen, but the real question is why the "Late Lord Frey" was left in control of such a strategic position. After showing up late at the Ruby Ford, it would be thought a word from Lord Hoster to Robert would be enough. Ned said Robert couldn't stand a shifty man.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 14th 11:03 AM
It'd be kind of unprecedented to strip a powerful lord of his familial lands and keep just because he showed up late to a battle. If they could prove he was going to join the Lannisters, that might have made a little difference, but as it was . . . Well, it just wouldn't be appropriate.

MILEN
User ID: 0658904 Jun 14th 12:33 PM
I understand what your saying Ran, maybe I don't have enough info on the time frame of the battle. But it would seem his main strength should have already been with the Usurper's army or south of the Twins. It being a civil war, where almost everyone's loyalty would be suspect, an answer of, "we got caught in traffic" just wouldn't do. Maybe Robert thought it would be too unpopular to strip him of the Twins, but surely Hoster could have dislodged him. Say, give him lands taken from a loyalist, like the Darry's, give the Twins to someone with a little more dependability. Anyway, during the war Robert's power came from the Stormlands, the Vale, and the North, the Riverlands seem to have split, I doubt any that fought at the Ruby Ford would have argued much. Basically he failed to muster, when the Greatjon threatened to do the same, Robb was going to hang him. The law is played fast loose by those who are strong enough, might makes right.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 14th 12:39 PM
Lord Walder didn't fail to muster. He just failed to arrive in time for the battle. In some circumstances, that really could (and did) happen. The suspicion, even the strong overriding suspicion, is not enough to remove him. Fighting on the wrong side in the Riverlands certainly wasn't enough -- the Darrys and the Mootons kept their lands.

Padraig
User ID: 1982994 Jun 14th 4:55 PM
What was he doing during all the previous months though?

Anyway it would be tough to remove the Freys from their position considering how the Lannisters were forgiven for playing no part at all until after the battle.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 14th 4:59 PM
I suspect Lord Frey managed to do much the same as he did during GoT -- guard his lands and nothing more. Maybe no outward hostility to anyone allied with Lord Tully, but I'm sure he'd argue that the Twins, with their valuable position, needed all of his swords to defend it.

But yeah, anyhow, it would be tough to shake him loose under most any circumstance.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jun 14th 7:59 PM
I thought the dishnor meant that the Freys had gotten word that Winterfell had been destroyed, and that they assumed that meant the two Walders there were dead. As they were Robbs wards, he was honor bound to protect them, and didnt, so the Freys are using it as an excuse to withdraw from the alliance

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jun 20th 5:42 PM
The Late Lord Frey needs to become the late Lord Frey. Yesterday.

Tywin is just who he is, extremely arrogant and power hungry. He isn't a coward, just ruthless and cold. Walder Frey, on the other hand, is both arrogant and a coward. Slimy, dishonest, self centered schmuck. Atleast the Lannisters have the honor to work for power, they don't sit around waiting for someone to get weakened so that they may take advantage of them...they MAKE them weak. Walder Frey is a megomaniacal opportunist, if such a thing is even possible.

Lord Hoster Tully's lands were stripped from him by Tywin and Joffrey. Whoever had Harrenhal beforehand lost it to LittleFinger as well. Whoever said that might is right was correct. If Robert wasn't wasting away his life, he could have maintained enough power to toss out someone like Late Lord Frey. Robert pardoned those who fought bravely against him, but he didn't seem very happy with anyone who acted the coward or was dishonest or sneaky. Frey is all three.

Padraig
User ID: 8548253 Jun 21st 5:02 PM
There are certain parallels between what Tywin and Frey did at the end of the war of the Usurper. If Frey hadn't arrived at all then he may not have survived in the Twins. Similarly if Tywin hadn't killed the Targaryens who knows how he would have been welcomed into the fold.

OTOH I think it was in Robert's interest to seem amenable towards all the lords in Westeros after he took power. It would certainly make people forget about the Targaryens faster if he didn't start throwing people out of their holdings and into dungeons.

Relic
User ID: 9308123 Jun 21st 5:11 PM
Lord Frey just may be the smartest man in Westros. And hes gotton more booty than any on this board can ever hope for.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 21st 5:18 PM
Tyrells were welcomed into the fold alright and so did everyone who fought _against_ Robert. Don't see why Tywin or Walder would be treated differently.

Of course, I think that if Tywin didn't show up at KL when he did, Aerys would have reduced KL to cinders via wildfire and Jaime would have been dead ;) :).

Otherwise I think that Tywin might have done as the Late Lord Frey and sat it out on the fence until the very end with the same results as he actually got after the Sack without having his reputation tarnished in the bargain ;).

Padraig
User ID: 8548253 Jun 21st 5:39 PM
Well I don't think Robert blamed anyone for fighting for their king. What is special about Tywin and Frey is that they sat out much of the war.

Now Tywin didn't sack KL to stop Aerys burning it to the ground;-) But then I have no firm idea of why he did it.

I agree Robert would not have gone up against the Lannisters if they had totally sat out the war but i'm not sure if Robert would have married Cersei if that have happened. I think it made Robert a bit more friendly towards the Lannisters after they killed those "hated" Targaryens.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 21st 6:10 PM
The reason Jon Arryn gave to Robert in favor of marriage to Cersei was the doubtful loyality of the Lannisters, Padraig ;). For some reason (which totally escapes me, I confess), Arryn thought that Tywin might want to support Viserys for the throne.

Anyway, this marriage didn't occur because the Lannisters were trusted or Robert was especially friendly to them, quite the opposite.

It wasn't the reward for the Sack.

And it wasn't like the Lannisters unwillingness to fight for the mad but rightful king didn't have a rational, easily understandable explanation. They wouldn't support a homicidal madman, but wouldn't fight against a lawful king either - all very neat and even "honorable" ;) :).

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 21st 6:19 PM
Never stated, but it was reasonable for Jon Arryn to distrust Tywin on this score, given Tywin's behavior (i.e., his lack of involvement in the war until the most opportune moment.)

If Tywin decided that Viserys would be a useful puppet on the throne, Tywin would have the only fresh army in Westeros to go through the process of seeing it done, with the possibility of winning over the Tyrells and Martells easily within grasp.

Next 20 Messages

Lommy Greenhands User ID: 9377263	Jun 13th 2:51 AM I was rereading ACOK and was at the part where Arya sees Elmar Frey crying because he has lost his princess and will have to marry someone else or become a septon, because "We've been dishonored." My question is why have they been dishonored, or is it because they believe Arya , who is his betrothed to be dead.
SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY User ID: 0436494	Jun 13th 4:50 AM I WOULD SAY IT IS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE ARYA TO BE DEAD.
Nynaeve User ID: 2345204	Jun 13th 5:22 PM You know, that's the one part that made me read 200 times to figure it out. My conclusion is that they meant Arya as well. Which, of course, is the irony of him telling this to her and her exclamtion, "I hope she dies!" Nyn
Emily User ID: 2192024	Jun 14th 8:12 AM I've never understood whether it means the Freys have dishonoured themselves, and are therefore withdrawing from the proposed marriage to Arya as they are unworthy of it (unlikely, given the Freys' high opinion of themselves, and their rather fluid concept of honour) or whether they are claiming that the Starks dishonoured the Freys (how?) and so the Freys are deserting them.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Jun 14th 8:46 AM There were alot of consessions that were made to Lord Walder When Robb crossed the Twins. I don't know if I rememeber them all but: Robb is supposed to Marry a Frey as is Arya. Robb took one of Walders son's a s a squire and Two of the Frey boys were sent to Winterfell. That agreement between Stark and Frey can be seen as fallen through in a couple ways. Arya being presumed dead is one. Big and Little Walder being captured in the fall of Winterfell in another. The question is about the timing of the events in the book and means of communication. If Walder Frey learned about Arya, who did he hear it from? Same question about the Walders.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Jun 14th 8:48 AM I think just as likely that Lord Walder heard of the Lannister - Tyrell alliance and decided he was on the wrong side of the fence. Getting out of the deal is a matter of rationalization for him at that point.
MILEN User ID: 0658904	Jun 14th 9:39 AM I agree with you Ser Benjen, but the real question is why the "Late Lord Frey" was left in control of such a strategic position. After showing up late at the Ruby Ford, it would be thought a word from Lord Hoster to Robert would be enough. Ned said Robert couldn't stand a shifty man.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 14th 11:03 AM It'd be kind of unprecedented to strip a powerful lord of his familial lands and keep just because he showed up late to a battle. If they could prove he was going to join the Lannisters, that might have made a little difference, but as it was . . . Well, it just wouldn't be appropriate.
MILEN User ID: 0658904	Jun 14th 12:33 PM I understand what your saying Ran, maybe I don't have enough info on the time frame of the battle. But it would seem his main strength should have already been with the Usurper's army or south of the Twins. It being a civil war, where almost everyone's loyalty would be suspect, an answer of, "we got caught in traffic" just wouldn't do. Maybe Robert thought it would be too unpopular to strip him of the Twins, but surely Hoster could have dislodged him. Say, give him lands taken from a loyalist, like the Darry's, give the Twins to someone with a little more dependability. Anyway, during the war Robert's power came from the Stormlands, the Vale, and the North, the Riverlands seem to have split, I doubt any that fought at the Ruby Ford would have argued much. Basically he failed to muster, when the Greatjon threatened to do the same, Robb was going to hang him. The law is played fast loose by those who are strong enough, might makes right.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 14th 12:39 PM Lord Walder didn't fail to muster. He just failed to arrive in time for the battle. In some circumstances, that really could (and did) happen. The suspicion, even the strong overriding suspicion, is not enough to remove him. Fighting on the wrong side in the Riverlands certainly wasn't enough -- the Darrys and the Mootons kept their lands.
Padraig User ID: 1982994	Jun 14th 4:55 PM What was he doing during all the previous months though? Anyway it would be tough to remove the Freys from their position considering how the Lannisters were forgiven for playing no part at all until after the battle.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 14th 4:59 PM I suspect Lord Frey managed to do much the same as he did during GoT -- guard his lands and nothing more. Maybe no outward hostility to anyone allied with Lord Tully, but I'm sure he'd argue that the Twins, with their valuable position, needed all of his swords to defend it. But yeah, anyhow, it would be tough to shake him loose under most any circumstance.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jun 14th 7:59 PM I thought the dishnor meant that the Freys had gotten word that Winterfell had been destroyed, and that they assumed that meant the two Walders there were dead. As they were Robbs wards, he was honor bound to protect them, and didnt, so the Freys are using it as an excuse to withdraw from the alliance
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jun 20th 5:42 PM The Late Lord Frey needs to become the late Lord Frey. Yesterday. Tywin is just who he is, extremely arrogant and power hungry. He isn't a coward, just ruthless and cold. Walder Frey, on the other hand, is both arrogant and a coward. Slimy, dishonest, self centered schmuck. Atleast the Lannisters have the honor to work for power, they don't sit around waiting for someone to get weakened so that they may take advantage of them...they MAKE them weak. Walder Frey is a megomaniacal opportunist, if such a thing is even possible. Lord Hoster Tully's lands were stripped from him by Tywin and Joffrey. Whoever had Harrenhal beforehand lost it to LittleFinger as well. Whoever said that might is right was correct. If Robert wasn't wasting away his life, he could have maintained enough power to toss out someone like Late Lord Frey. Robert pardoned those who fought bravely against him, but he didn't seem very happy with anyone who acted the coward or was dishonest or sneaky. Frey is all three.
Padraig User ID: 8548253	Jun 21st 5:02 PM There are certain parallels between what Tywin and Frey did at the end of the war of the Usurper. If Frey hadn't arrived at all then he may not have survived in the Twins. Similarly if Tywin hadn't killed the Targaryens who knows how he would have been welcomed into the fold. OTOH I think it was in Robert's interest to seem amenable towards all the lords in Westeros after he took power. It would certainly make people forget about the Targaryens faster if he didn't start throwing people out of their holdings and into dungeons.
Relic User ID: 9308123	Jun 21st 5:11 PM Lord Frey just may be the smartest man in Westros. And hes gotton more booty than any on this board can ever hope for.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 21st 5:18 PM Tyrells were welcomed into the fold alright and so did everyone who fought _against_ Robert. Don't see why Tywin or Walder would be treated differently. Of course, I think that if Tywin didn't show up at KL when he did, Aerys would have reduced KL to cinders via wildfire and Jaime would have been dead ;) :). Otherwise I think that Tywin might have done as the Late Lord Frey and sat it out on the fence until the very end with the same results as he actually got after the Sack without having his reputation tarnished in the bargain ;).
Padraig User ID: 8548253	Jun 21st 5:39 PM Well I don't think Robert blamed anyone for fighting for their king. What is special about Tywin and Frey is that they sat out much of the war. Now Tywin didn't sack KL to stop Aerys burning it to the ground;-) But then I have no firm idea of why he did it. I agree Robert would not have gone up against the Lannisters if they had totally sat out the war but i'm not sure if Robert would have married Cersei if that have happened. I think it made Robert a bit more friendly towards the Lannisters after they killed those "hated" Targaryens.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 21st 6:10 PM The reason Jon Arryn gave to Robert in favor of marriage to Cersei was the doubtful loyality of the Lannisters, Padraig ;). For some reason (which totally escapes me, I confess), Arryn thought that Tywin might want to support Viserys for the throne. Anyway, this marriage didn't occur because the Lannisters were trusted or Robert was especially friendly to them, quite the opposite. It wasn't the reward for the Sack. And it wasn't like the Lannisters unwillingness to fight for the mad but rightful king didn't have a rational, easily understandable explanation. They wouldn't support a homicidal madman, but wouldn't fight against a lawful king either - all very neat and even "honorable" ;) :).
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 21st 6:19 PM Never stated, but it was reasonable for Jon Arryn to distrust Tywin on this score, given Tywin's behavior (i.e., his lack of involvement in the war until the most opportune moment.) If Tywin decided that Viserys would be a useful puppet on the throne, Tywin would have the only fresh army in Westeros to go through the process of seeing it done, with the possibility of winning over the Tyrells and Martells easily within grasp.