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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings III / The attempted assassination of Bran

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LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 28th 7:57 PM
The others have eaten my last post. Just when I had many other things to say. I will post my the final two theories I came up with. I have will not say anything different from what I said in the former post, made several days ago. I still have no new information on how did it, btw.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 29th 1:41 PM
This is probably the wrong place to post this, but the question of broken threads confuses me. If a thread is broken, it seems pretty obvious. The last post or two have no text. But then why do we see six or seven blank posts in a row? Obviously, the later posters would have detected something was amiss, but then why do they keep posting after the thread obviously is broken? I suppose this really is more of a technical question. Is it that a "broken thread" wipes out some number of posts that previously were displayed?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 29th 1:51 PM
Padraig did discover that one could retrieve 'lost' posts by rolling the board over to the next twenty posts and then browing the board through next 20 messages rather than latest 20 messages. At least, that's how I recall it working. Could be wrong.

Markus
User ID: 8820133 Jun 29th 2:16 PM
It isn't as easy as that. It depends on _when_ a topic breaks. The "breaking" message and the following messages get lost, until a new page is reached with the "Next 20 Messages" option.

Then, the topic can be continued to be viewed with N20M, and the last message of the previous page can also be seen again.

An example: If a topic breaks with post 11, then it is broken until message 21. Message 20 can be seen on the second page too.

Or, if the topic breaks with message 52, then the topic is broken until message 57, and 56 can be seen again on the next page.

Note, the first message of every topic and the last message of the previous page will be seen on the next page in all cases.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 29th 2:22 PM
Oh, that _really_ cleared things up for me, Markus. :-)

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 29th 7:09 PM
Eeeek! The others again. My post on "who did it" is not up. ::::sign::::grumble, grumble.::::

Also, I put VII in the title of this thread, but it is not there. Aparently it was one character too long and was eaten as well.

I have a lot to say so I am going to try this for the third time. I have a new theory or two about the assassination. I came up with all theories before receiving ASOS, and nothing has changed. I don't really know anything more about that 11 chapters into the book (Well, I have a tiny tidbit on who did not do it which I shall not reveal.)

I was rereading the part in ACOK where Tyrion "captures" Pycelle. I feel Pycelle's dialogue there was quite revealing. When caught as Cersei's spy he says "All I ever did, I did for House Lannister". then says , "it was I who bid Aerys open his gates."

Pycelle reveals that he hates Robert, who "was a wretched King...he would have set your sister aside...."

We not only learn that Pycelle was Cersei's spy, he was also raven master. Thus, he is in position for Cersei to send him a message when Bran falls from the tower window. Does Cersei ask for Bran's death in this message. I believe she does not. However, look what we have learned about Jon Arryn.
We learn that Pycelle was responsible for the death of John Arryn, but only in a manner of speaking. Coleman was purging Jon Arryn of the poison he had taken, and Pycelle sent him away. He explains, "The Queen needed Lord Arryn dead, =she did not say so=, but when I looked at her, I knew.....". So, it is quite reasonable to think that Pycelle may have believed "The Queen needed Bran dead."

Note that whoever was managing the ravens for the King's travelling party could have been Cersei's spy as well. Pycelle could have sent a message to him, but not Cersei or Jaime, calling for the death of Bran. However, with his hatred of Robert, Pycelle wants to do it in a way that would frame Robert. Pycelle could have asked the travelling raven master to steal Robert's dagger, hire an assassin, tell him to carry that dagger, kill Bran, then leave the dagger.

This was a win/win situation for Pycelle, as far as he knew. If Bran died, Cersei was not in danger of being revealed. Even if Bran did not die, suspicion was still cast upon the King because of his dagger being present at the assassination.

I have one other person that I think should be a strong suspect. It is Lysa Arryn. She could be a madwoman! I suddenly realized that Edmure has no children. Robb is heir to Riverrun after Edumre died. Lysa wants this for her son. She is plananing to gradually kill all of Catelyn's sons. Therefore, she orders the person who brought Catelyn the note to kill Bran. Why do it with Robert's dagger? Well, Robert gave the dagger back to its owner, Littlefinger, some time ago. (Didn't we hear that many people gave things back after that duel?) Littlefinger gave it to Lysa and she gave it to the assassin. Why? Littlefinger hopes to marry Lysa and inherit Riverrun for himself, but she is unaware of his grand scheme.

I am sorry if I have repeated the ideas of others. I have not kept track of the 500 some odd posts on this topic.

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 29th 9:10 PM
Linda,
I still disagree, I think that it was Robert who was behind the attempted assassination of Bran.

Ants
User ID: 2240694 Jun 29th 10:13 PM
The problem with Pycelle is that there are too many huge jumps your making. He sent away a maester and didn't tend a patient correctly. Thats way behind organising a killing accross thousands of leagues, including stealing a dagger from the King. I don't think Pycelle is capable of it. And no risk? What if his agent gets caught? The agent's screwed, he's screwed, and if he talks about Arryn's death or James/Cersei Cersei is screwed as well. Nope, don't think this really has enough going for it Linda.

Rania, why would Robert want Bran dead? The only reason I think I've read is as a mercy killing. That has to be the lamnest reason I've ever heard. Yep, my best friends child is crippled, so I'll take a risk and kill him. This just doesn't make sense, and appears totally out of character.

IMHO the only real candidates are Peytr, Lysa or Cersei, with Varys lagging a long way behind and noone else in the race. Personally I lean towards a Peytr/Lysa alliance.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 30th 1:00 AM
Ants, its the same contention I made before about the agent getting caught. I contend that Pycelle had an agent in Cersei's camp. He found an assassin and hired him without telling him who he was working for. Our, he found someone travelling in a different direction, and hired that person to hire the assassin whilst he waited in another room, listening to the whole thing. Then the person he found proceded on their merry way.

I don't assume Pycelle did it because he took actions resulting in Arryn's death without Cersei's command, but for her benefit. I simply say that act shows Pycelle is capable of such a thing.

To assume that Robert did it because he is the last one known to be in possession of the dagger would not seem to be sufficient cause. And anyone could have had "mercy" as one of their motives in the attempted killing. I doubt it is sufficient cause on its own to explain the attempt, however.

Rania
User ID: 9147853 Jun 30th 1:39 AM
That was my reasoning, a mercy killing. The attempt was so bungled it had be from Robert and it had to be a mercy killing.
Cersei and co really wanted Bran dead, they seemed surprised that he wasnt' dead by the time they left. So I dont think it was a Littlefinger plot, he had no way of knowing what was going on.
Also, I dont bye the Pycelle and the ravens theory..... The only one left is Robert and a mercy killing.

Ants
User ID: 2240694 Jun 30th 3:46 AM
I would still contend not curing someone and arranging an assassination are vastly different. However, I will respect your views and opinions (however weird they are ;) ).

Rania why are you discounting Cersei? You don't actually say.

Also the Peytr/Lysa argument goes that the assassination was planned before hand and the assassin could choose any Stark as a target, he just chose Bran. The contention here is that the assassin was the one who left the note from Lysa behind.

And I still don't buy mercy killing as a reason. Its not in Robert's character.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 30th 11:34 AM
Robert is a guy who lives life huge. Wenching, fighting, etc. That is the only kind of life he thinks is worth living. He told Ned as much. And everyone knows that Bran will be crippled for life and unable to do of the things Robert believes are worth doing.

Catelyn went completely over the edge when Bran fell, and Robert may well conclude that the rest of her life would be sent doting on a crippled son to the exclusion of the rest of the family. Remember, Catelyn was so upset that she couldn't even say goodbye to Ned, Arya and Sansa when they left -- a fact Robert had to notice because her absence would be so obvious.

So, might Robert conclude that the whole Stark family, including Bran, would be better of if Bran were dead. He's a man of action, not a man of a lot of thought, so he decides to take matters into his own hands to help his best friend's family.

I don't think that this is inconsistent with what we know of Robert. It's at least _plausible_, particularly if he's nudged down that path by Cersei. And I think there's a hint of that in the conversation between Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion in Winterfell, where both Jaime and Cersei say "it would be a mercy" if Bran were to die. Amazingly, they used almost the exact same words uttered by the assassin himself.

Rania
User ID: 9084913 Jun 30th 11:37 AM
Thanks Jeff, that is exactly what I was trying to say but you say it so very much better than I ever could.
Needless to say, I agree 100%

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 Jun 30th 11:49 AM
Yeah, I noticed George giving us a red herring by having Jaime and Cersei say "It would be a mercy.". Good writing!

Lodengarl
User ID: 0798784 Jun 30th 12:08 PM
To combat your point...Robert is also not a weakling or someone to murder behind a best friend's back. Remember, Robert knows how important is to his friend Ned to do the deed himself...and it is one thing to think it would be a mercy for the boy to die (only saying it to yourself or your close ones), it is quite another to murder your friend's son behind his back.

So, is Robert's desire to live life to the fullest and mercy kill those can't greater than his desire to not go behind his friend's back and execute his child?

I think Robert had a lot more to worry about than a cripled boy.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Jun 30th 12:28 PM
Lodengarl, I _just_ finished the chapter in GoT (p 351-358 US pb ed.) where Robert and Eddard go at it in the Council chamber over whether or not to send an assassin after Daenerys, and I actually am thinking the exact opposite about Robert's personality.

Here's a quote that really belongs in the Best Lines topic.

"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"
Robert purpled. "No more, Ned," he warned, pointing. "Not another word. Have you forgotten who is king here?"
"No, your Grace," Ned replied. "Have you?"

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 30th 12:36 PM
Very different context, that quote, and I don't think it illuminates anything at all. It's about Robert's "fear" (rather idiotic for Ned to put it that way) and his particular Targaryen madness. Neither of those things, as far as I can see, come at all into the argument for Robert being behind the attempt.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Jun 30th 12:43 PM
Sorry Ran. Now that I think on it, you are totally correct. I don't think Robert's hatred for Targaryens should be applied to Bran's situation, I just think it was a great quote. If you want to delete it I would completly understand.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jun 30th 12:45 PM
Heh. Didn't mean to come out harsh or anything. I'm severely censoring myself since I don't want to be drawn into heavy discussion on the same points again, but I overdid it a little. ;)

Perfectly valid thing to post about, an it _is_ a great quote, in any case. :)

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Jun 30th 12:52 PM
A mercy killing by Robert? Starting with a fire at the castle library, and concluding with an assassin scaring the daylights out of a little boy? There have to be better ways for a powerful king of the realm to accomplish such a "mercy" killing. The way this thing happened just didn't jive with Robert being at the controls.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 28th 7:57 PM The others have eaten my last post. Just when I had many other things to say. I will post my the final two theories I came up with. I have will not say anything different from what I said in the former post, made several days ago. I still have no new information on how did it, btw.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 29th 1:41 PM This is probably the wrong place to post this, but the question of broken threads confuses me. If a thread is broken, it seems pretty obvious. The last post or two have no text. But then why do we see six or seven blank posts in a row? Obviously, the later posters would have detected something was amiss, but then why do they keep posting after the thread obviously is broken? I suppose this really is more of a technical question. Is it that a "broken thread" wipes out some number of posts that previously were displayed?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 29th 1:51 PM Padraig did discover that one could retrieve 'lost' posts by rolling the board over to the next twenty posts and then browing the board through next 20 messages rather than latest 20 messages. At least, that's how I recall it working. Could be wrong.
Markus User ID: 8820133	Jun 29th 2:16 PM It isn't as easy as that. It depends on _when_ a topic breaks. The "breaking" message and the following messages get lost, until a new page is reached with the "Next 20 Messages" option. Then, the topic can be continued to be viewed with N20M, and the last message of the previous page can also be seen again. An example: If a topic breaks with post 11, then it is broken until message 21. Message 20 can be seen on the second page too. Or, if the topic breaks with message 52, then the topic is broken until message 57, and 56 can be seen again on the next page. Note, the first message of every topic and the last message of the previous page will be seen on the next page in all cases.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 29th 2:22 PM Oh, that _really_ cleared things up for me, Markus. :-)
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 29th 7:09 PM Eeeek! The others again. My post on "who did it" is not up. ::::sign::::grumble, grumble.:::: Also, I put VII in the title of this thread, but it is not there. Aparently it was one character too long and was eaten as well. I have a lot to say so I am going to try this for the third time. I have a new theory or two about the assassination. I came up with all theories before receiving ASOS, and nothing has changed. I don't really know anything more about that 11 chapters into the book (Well, I have a tiny tidbit on who did not do it which I shall not reveal.) I was rereading the part in ACOK where Tyrion "captures" Pycelle. I feel Pycelle's dialogue there was quite revealing. When caught as Cersei's spy he says "All I ever did, I did for House Lannister". then says , "it was I who bid Aerys open his gates." Pycelle reveals that he hates Robert, who "was a wretched King...he would have set your sister aside...." We not only learn that Pycelle was Cersei's spy, he was also raven master. Thus, he is in position for Cersei to send him a message when Bran falls from the tower window. Does Cersei ask for Bran's death in this message. I believe she does not. However, look what we have learned about Jon Arryn. We learn that Pycelle was responsible for the death of John Arryn, but only in a manner of speaking. Coleman was purging Jon Arryn of the poison he had taken, and Pycelle sent him away. He explains, "The Queen needed Lord Arryn dead, =she did not say so=, but when I looked at her, I knew.....". So, it is quite reasonable to think that Pycelle may have believed "The Queen needed Bran dead." Note that whoever was managing the ravens for the King's travelling party could have been Cersei's spy as well. Pycelle could have sent a message to him, but not Cersei or Jaime, calling for the death of Bran. However, with his hatred of Robert, Pycelle wants to do it in a way that would frame Robert. Pycelle could have asked the travelling raven master to steal Robert's dagger, hire an assassin, tell him to carry that dagger, kill Bran, then leave the dagger. This was a win/win situation for Pycelle, as far as he knew. If Bran died, Cersei was not in danger of being revealed. Even if Bran did not die, suspicion was still cast upon the King because of his dagger being present at the assassination. I have one other person that I think should be a strong suspect. It is Lysa Arryn. She could be a madwoman! I suddenly realized that Edmure has no children. Robb is heir to Riverrun after Edumre died. Lysa wants this for her son. She is plananing to gradually kill all of Catelyn's sons. Therefore, she orders the person who brought Catelyn the note to kill Bran. Why do it with Robert's dagger? Well, Robert gave the dagger back to its owner, Littlefinger, some time ago. (Didn't we hear that many people gave things back after that duel?) Littlefinger gave it to Lysa and she gave it to the assassin. Why? Littlefinger hopes to marry Lysa and inherit Riverrun for himself, but she is unaware of his grand scheme. I am sorry if I have repeated the ideas of others. I have not kept track of the 500 some odd posts on this topic.
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 29th 9:10 PM Linda, I still disagree, I think that it was Robert who was behind the attempted assassination of Bran.
Ants User ID: 2240694	Jun 29th 10:13 PM The problem with Pycelle is that there are too many huge jumps your making. He sent away a maester and didn't tend a patient correctly. Thats way behind organising a killing accross thousands of leagues, including stealing a dagger from the King. I don't think Pycelle is capable of it. And no risk? What if his agent gets caught? The agent's screwed, he's screwed, and if he talks about Arryn's death or James/Cersei Cersei is screwed as well. Nope, don't think this really has enough going for it Linda. Rania, why would Robert want Bran dead? The only reason I think I've read is as a mercy killing. That has to be the lamnest reason I've ever heard. Yep, my best friends child is crippled, so I'll take a risk and kill him. This just doesn't make sense, and appears totally out of character. IMHO the only real candidates are Peytr, Lysa or Cersei, with Varys lagging a long way behind and noone else in the race. Personally I lean towards a Peytr/Lysa alliance.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 30th 1:00 AM Ants, its the same contention I made before about the agent getting caught. I contend that Pycelle had an agent in Cersei's camp. He found an assassin and hired him without telling him who he was working for. Our, he found someone travelling in a different direction, and hired that person to hire the assassin whilst he waited in another room, listening to the whole thing. Then the person he found proceded on their merry way. I don't assume Pycelle did it because he took actions resulting in Arryn's death without Cersei's command, but for her benefit. I simply say that act shows Pycelle is capable of such a thing. To assume that Robert did it because he is the last one known to be in possession of the dagger would not seem to be sufficient cause. And anyone could have had "mercy" as one of their motives in the attempted killing. I doubt it is sufficient cause on its own to explain the attempt, however.
Rania User ID: 9147853	Jun 30th 1:39 AM That was my reasoning, a mercy killing. The attempt was so bungled it had be from Robert and it had to be a mercy killing. Cersei and co really wanted Bran dead, they seemed surprised that he wasnt' dead by the time they left. So I dont think it was a Littlefinger plot, he had no way of knowing what was going on. Also, I dont bye the Pycelle and the ravens theory..... The only one left is Robert and a mercy killing.
Ants User ID: 2240694	Jun 30th 3:46 AM I would still contend not curing someone and arranging an assassination are vastly different. However, I will respect your views and opinions (however weird they are ;) ). Rania why are you discounting Cersei? You don't actually say. Also the Peytr/Lysa argument goes that the assassination was planned before hand and the assassin could choose any Stark as a target, he just chose Bran. The contention here is that the assassin was the one who left the note from Lysa behind. And I still don't buy mercy killing as a reason. Its not in Robert's character.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 30th 11:34 AM Robert is a guy who lives life huge. Wenching, fighting, etc. That is the only kind of life he thinks is worth living. He told Ned as much. And everyone knows that Bran will be crippled for life and unable to do of the things Robert believes are worth doing. Catelyn went completely over the edge when Bran fell, and Robert may well conclude that the rest of her life would be sent doting on a crippled son to the exclusion of the rest of the family. Remember, Catelyn was so upset that she couldn't even say goodbye to Ned, Arya and Sansa when they left -- a fact Robert had to notice because her absence would be so obvious. So, might Robert conclude that the whole Stark family, including Bran, would be better of if Bran were dead. He's a man of action, not a man of a lot of thought, so he decides to take matters into his own hands to help his best friend's family. I don't think that this is inconsistent with what we know of Robert. It's at least _plausible_, particularly if he's nudged down that path by Cersei. And I think there's a hint of that in the conversation between Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion in Winterfell, where both Jaime and Cersei say "it would be a mercy" if Bran were to die. Amazingly, they used almost the exact same words uttered by the assassin himself.
Rania User ID: 9084913	Jun 30th 11:37 AM Thanks Jeff, that is exactly what I was trying to say but you say it so very much better than I ever could. Needless to say, I agree 100%
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	Jun 30th 11:49 AM Yeah, I noticed George giving us a red herring by having Jaime and Cersei say "It would be a mercy.". Good writing!
Lodengarl User ID: 0798784	Jun 30th 12:08 PM To combat your point...Robert is also not a weakling or someone to murder behind a best friend's back. Remember, Robert knows how important is to his friend Ned to do the deed himself...and it is one thing to think it would be a mercy for the boy to die (only saying it to yourself or your close ones), it is quite another to murder your friend's son behind his back. So, is Robert's desire to live life to the fullest and mercy kill those can't greater than his desire to not go behind his friend's back and execute his child? I think Robert had a lot more to worry about than a cripled boy.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Jun 30th 12:28 PM Lodengarl, I _just_ finished the chapter in GoT (p 351-358 US pb ed.) where Robert and Eddard go at it in the Council chamber over whether or not to send an assassin after Daenerys, and I actually am thinking the exact opposite about Robert's personality. Here's a quote that really belongs in the Best Lines topic. "Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?" Robert purpled. "No more, Ned," he warned, pointing. "Not another word. Have you forgotten who is king here?" "No, your Grace," Ned replied. "Have you?"
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 30th 12:36 PM Very different context, that quote, and I don't think it illuminates anything at all. It's about Robert's "fear" (rather idiotic for Ned to put it that way) and his particular Targaryen madness. Neither of those things, as far as I can see, come at all into the argument for Robert being behind the attempt.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Jun 30th 12:43 PM Sorry Ran. Now that I think on it, you are totally correct. I don't think Robert's hatred for Targaryens should be applied to Bran's situation, I just think it was a great quote. If you want to delete it I would completly understand.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jun 30th 12:45 PM Heh. Didn't mean to come out harsh or anything. I'm severely censoring myself since I don't want to be drawn into heavy discussion on the same points again, but I overdid it a little. ;) Perfectly valid thing to post about, an it _is_ a great quote, in any case. :)
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Jun 30th 12:52 PM A mercy killing by Robert? Starting with a fire at the castle library, and concluding with an assassin scaring the daylights out of a little boy? There have to be better ways for a powerful king of the realm to accomplish such a "mercy" killing. The way this thing happened just didn't jive with Robert being at the controls.