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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings III / Whither the Dragon

Casper
User ID: 9405543 Jul 5th 4:13 PM
Pardon me if this has been addressed in the past, but I just found this board today.
Is there any explanation why the dragons became extinct (well, at least until Dany's firewalking expedition)?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 5th 4:29 PM
There may be dragons beyond Asshai. Maybe.

Why did the known ones die? Hunted out for the majority them. I mean, there were dragons in Westeros, but they were all gone (... well, maybe -- there's the theory about the dragon under Winterfell . . .) by the time the Targaryens arrived.

And the Targaryen dragons? The Dance of the Dragons killed off almost all of them (and one gets the impression that there weren't just four or five, but at least a dozen or more of good size,) leaving (eventually) a sickly female who died (perhaps from poison) and some eggs that never hatched.

Also, I think an argument for the waning of magic as a general trend may, somehow, be involved in it. It wasn't particularly noticeable while the dragons lived, but it may have contributed to the fact that the dragons following Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxes weren't as huge or powerful and grew progressively smaller. It may also simply be the result of repeated inbreeding, however.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jul 5th 4:48 PM
Or maybe the Targaryen dragons after Balerion et al. didn't get to live long enough to grow truly large.

BTW, I am not sure that there were dragons in Westeros until the Targaryens brought over theirs. I don't remember any relevant quotes.

Anyway, perhaps the (near) extinction of the dragons has something to do with the Fall of Valyria. Like the dragons needed special places to roost or hatch and they were there. Possibly, these restrictions can be overcome with the help of a dragonlord, but as most dragonlords perished with Valyria, the remaining dragons died out during the next 5 centuries.

Anyway, when Bran lies in coma in AGOT he sees many of the things which are truly happening, but also :"...Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise". So, maybe they weren't completely extinct even before Dany hatched hers... they were just far away, in the land where magic conveniently worked.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 5th 4:55 PM
GRRM stated it in some letter ... lets see. Letter #57. To the question asking if there were dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens brought theirs over, GRRM replies:

There were dragons all over, once.

And when asked about what happened to the other dragons, and it was mentioned that the opinion seems to be no more dragons exist:

There are no more dragons known to exist... but this is a medieval period, and large parts of the world are still terra incognita, so there are always tales of dragon sightings in far off mysterious places. The maesters tend to discount those.

Casper
User ID: 9405543 Jul 6th 8:55 AM
I was thinking specifically of the Targaryen dragons. Thanks for the replies!

Street Prophet
User ID: 1307164 Jul 17th 0:58 AM
Actually I think there was a Targaryen king called the Dragonsbane who purposely killed the last surviving dragon. He poisoned her. Apparently he was the son of the female Targaryen who opposed her younger brothers claim to the throne. So the ensuing civil war was called The Dance of the Dragons. This king, Dragonbane, apparently saw his mother get eaten by a dragon. Since then he has been less than happy with them.

Aaron
User ID: 0317884 Jul 17th 7:50 AM
To go along with Rans first comment. We do have a hint that magic works better when Dragons are nearby. In justifying the overproduction of Wildfire when questioned by Tyrion, Wisdom Halleyn <sp> (the Alchemist) tells Tyrion that the 'spells' used to create Wildfire "have been working better lately" no doubt because of Danys dragons maturing.

Rania
User ID: 1711124 Jul 27th 11:57 PM
I always thought that the magic receded as the dragons and the direwolves disappeared.
From the first chapter when the 6 direwolves were found we get the impression that they were also thought to be extinct... But the return of both
dragons and direwolves is bringing magic back.
Remember how the pyromancer tell Tyrion that if they didn't know better they would swear that there dragons in the world again because suddenly making wildfire was so much easier?

Jaeger
User ID: 8430353 Jul 28th 0:00 AM
Direwolves weren't extinct, just not seen south of the wall. For a bit longer than dragons have been dead actually (200 years, though that is bound to be exagerated)

Lannister
User ID: 0136334 Jul 28th 9:24 AM
Yes, Tyrion's conversation with the alchemist is pretty clear that living, breathing Dragons somehow increase the magic in an area. whether this increase is focused around the Dragons or is simply a global increase isn't really hinted at. But Magic is definitely coming back, hopefully not so vile as the red priests birthing shadows. What would happen if a male priest tried that little trick...hmmmmm. Could be painful.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jul 30th 1:14 AM
I disagree.

I think that y'all are confusing cause and effect.

The long summer, the coming hard winter, the return of wargs and direwolves south of the wall, Dany's dragons, and the increased production of wild fire are all a RESULT of the magic returning, not causes.

Whatever it is that is making the magic return to the land, is pulling together magical forces/creatures/humans/etc.

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Jul 30th 5:21 AM
That's a more logical interpretation but didn't someone tell Dany in Quarth something very similar to what was said to Tyrion?

The dragons haven't been gone that long yet magic seems to be long gone.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jul 30th 5:24 AM
The only point of information we really have concerning this is what the pryomancer says and what Quaithe said. While the pyromancer seems more ignorant than not, I think Quaithe is likely to be quite knowledgable, and she certainly seemed to pin the increased power of magic on the dragons.

"And now the power grows, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."
"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"
The woman stepped closer, and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

Page 426 in the U.K. hardback. :)

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Jul 30th 5:31 AM
Ah, thanks.

Casper User ID: 9405543	Jul 5th 4:13 PM Pardon me if this has been addressed in the past, but I just found this board today. Is there any explanation why the dragons became extinct (well, at least until Dany's firewalking expedition)?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 5th 4:29 PM There may be dragons beyond Asshai. Maybe. Why did the known ones die? Hunted out for the majority them. I mean, there were dragons in Westeros, but they were all gone (... well, maybe -- there's the theory about the dragon under Winterfell . . .) by the time the Targaryens arrived. And the Targaryen dragons? The Dance of the Dragons killed off almost all of them (and one gets the impression that there weren't just four or five, but at least a dozen or more of good size,) leaving (eventually) a sickly female who died (perhaps from poison) and some eggs that never hatched. Also, I think an argument for the waning of magic as a general trend may, somehow, be involved in it. It wasn't particularly noticeable while the dragons lived, but it may have contributed to the fact that the dragons following Balerion, Vhagar, and Meraxes weren't as huge or powerful and grew progressively smaller. It may also simply be the result of repeated inbreeding, however.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jul 5th 4:48 PM Or maybe the Targaryen dragons after Balerion et al. didn't get to live long enough to grow truly large. BTW, I am not sure that there were dragons in Westeros until the Targaryens brought over theirs. I don't remember any relevant quotes. Anyway, perhaps the (near) extinction of the dragons has something to do with the Fall of Valyria. Like the dragons needed special places to roost or hatch and they were there. Possibly, these restrictions can be overcome with the help of a dragonlord, but as most dragonlords perished with Valyria, the remaining dragons died out during the next 5 centuries. Anyway, when Bran lies in coma in AGOT he sees many of the things which are truly happening, but also :"...Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise". So, maybe they weren't completely extinct even before Dany hatched hers... they were just far away, in the land where magic conveniently worked.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 5th 4:55 PM GRRM stated it in some letter ... lets see. Letter #57. To the question asking if there were dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens brought theirs over, GRRM replies: There were dragons all over, once. And when asked about what happened to the other dragons, and it was mentioned that the opinion seems to be no more dragons exist: There are no more dragons known to exist... but this is a medieval period, and large parts of the world are still terra incognita, so there are always tales of dragon sightings in far off mysterious places. The maesters tend to discount those.
Casper User ID: 9405543	Jul 6th 8:55 AM I was thinking specifically of the Targaryen dragons. Thanks for the replies!
Street Prophet User ID: 1307164	Jul 17th 0:58 AM Actually I think there was a Targaryen king called the Dragonsbane who purposely killed the last surviving dragon. He poisoned her. Apparently he was the son of the female Targaryen who opposed her younger brothers claim to the throne. So the ensuing civil war was called The Dance of the Dragons. This king, Dragonbane, apparently saw his mother get eaten by a dragon. Since then he has been less than happy with them.
Aaron User ID: 0317884	Jul 17th 7:50 AM To go along with Rans first comment. We do have a hint that magic works better when Dragons are nearby. In justifying the overproduction of Wildfire when questioned by Tyrion, Wisdom Halleyn <sp> (the Alchemist) tells Tyrion that the 'spells' used to create Wildfire "have been working better lately" no doubt because of Danys dragons maturing.
Rania User ID: 1711124	Jul 27th 11:57 PM I always thought that the magic receded as the dragons and the direwolves disappeared. From the first chapter when the 6 direwolves were found we get the impression that they were also thought to be extinct... But the return of both dragons and direwolves is bringing magic back. Remember how the pyromancer tell Tyrion that if they didn't know better they would swear that there dragons in the world again because suddenly making wildfire was so much easier?
Jaeger User ID: 8430353	Jul 28th 0:00 AM Direwolves weren't extinct, just not seen south of the wall. For a bit longer than dragons have been dead actually (200 years, though that is bound to be exagerated)
Lannister User ID: 0136334	Jul 28th 9:24 AM Yes, Tyrion's conversation with the alchemist is pretty clear that living, breathing Dragons somehow increase the magic in an area. whether this increase is focused around the Dragons or is simply a global increase isn't really hinted at. But Magic is definitely coming back, hopefully not so vile as the red priests birthing shadows. What would happen if a male priest tried that little trick...hmmmmm. Could be painful.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jul 30th 1:14 AM I disagree. I think that y'all are confusing cause and effect. The long summer, the coming hard winter, the return of wargs and direwolves south of the wall, Dany's dragons, and the increased production of wild fire are all a RESULT of the magic returning, not causes. Whatever it is that is making the magic return to the land, is pulling together magical forces/creatures/humans/etc.
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Jul 30th 5:21 AM That's a more logical interpretation but didn't someone tell Dany in Quarth something very similar to what was said to Tyrion? The dragons haven't been gone that long yet magic seems to be long gone.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jul 30th 5:24 AM The only point of information we really have concerning this is what the pryomancer says and what Quaithe said. While the pyromancer seems more ignorant than not, I think Quaithe is likely to be quite knowledgable, and she certainly seemed to pin the increased power of magic on the dragons. "And now the power grows, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it." "Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?" The woman stepped closer, and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?" Page 426 in the U.K. hardback. :)
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Jul 30th 5:31 AM Ah, thanks.