A mirror of the eeesite "A Song of Ice and Fire"

This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings III / The Imp

Next 20 Messages

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 16th 12:15 PM
This is a continuation of the "I loath the Imp" thread in A Clash of Kings II. The most recent issue being discussed was why Tyrion did not ask Janos Slynt to identify the individual responsible for arranging the execution of Ned Stark rather than his being sent to the Wall. The last couple of posts were as follows:

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 16th 9:16 AM
Information is _always_ useful. Tyrion has been trying to figure out who has been behind which actions for quite a while. If Littlefinger was going behind Cersei's back for his own purposes, that could be a fairly powerful blackmail item to use against him. It certainly couldn't hurt to get thie information from Slynt, because there is no telling what juicy details may be included until you ask.

Sure, Slynt is untrustworthy. But Tyrion had him cowed pretty thoroughly by the end of their talk. Plus, he had the leverage of Slynt's children and their future. Tyrion is a pretty shrewd judge of people, and I think he'd be able to parse out the lies from the truth. But even if he couldn't, not even _asking_ doesn't seem to make sense.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 16th 11:59 AM
Again, he was angry. When he was done with Slynt, the last thing he wanted to do was drag him back to ask him a couple more questions. He was thoroughly disgusted.

It wasn't rational, true, but in the scene it makes sense. It certainly is bothersome, but we all pretty much know the answer anyway I should think. Cersei isn't stupid enough, Varys doesn't want to rush it, Joffrey wouldn't have come up with it alone, and that leaves Petyr.

*********************

I'm still not convinced it makes any sense at all, but I suspect this may be one of those questions to which there is no answer. The sole subject of Tyrion's conversation with Slynt was Slynt's role in Ned's death. To not ask who else was involved, well, I just don't think that was something that could have slipped Tyrion's mind. Would have been nice to have that on Littlefinger, because killing Ned made sure that Jaime would not be exchanged. Ned for Jaime would have been a reasonable exchange that Cersei would have loved. Tyrion may _suspect_ Littlefinger, but there's no telling what kind of evidence Slynt may have had.

But I guess we just accept it as an anomoly.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 16th 12:20 PM
The sole subject? The first thing he actually talks about is Allar Deem and the death of Barra and her mother.

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 May 16th 9:54 PM
Sorry I did not read the previous thread. Loathing the Imp seems impossible to me. :-) Who would loathe the greatest character in all of literature?....

At any rate, I am quite confused about "the arrangement of the execution of Ned". I thought Joffrey was mad and said to execute him rather than let him take the black. Can someone enlighten me?

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 May 16th 10:12 PM
The assumption has been that someone else got to Joffrey and convinced him to have Ned killed rather than take the black. But who was it?

LindaElane
User ID: 0276214 May 16th 11:56 PM
What were the grounds for the assumption?

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 May 17th 0:12 AM
IMHO, Joffrey still held a grudge. He never meant to keep his promise to grant Ned mercy. It was of his free will.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 May 17th 7:40 AM
I'm sorry for what I'm about to say - bit IMHO it was Littlefinger, again. I realize I'm holding him responsible for just about every killing and attempted killing that's gone down in KL, but I think he had all sorts of motives with respect to seeing Ned dead. He wanted to exact revenge on Ned's family for the way Ned's brother treated him and he wanted to exact revenge on Catelyn for downplaying his advances. Plus, Ned's death and the several others he was probably behind would create a state of chaos (war, terror, political intrigue) in Westeros. A chaotic environment would offer all kinds of opportunities for a clever man such as himself. I think he's taken advantage of that enviroment to establish several personal alliances throughout the land.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 17th 7:54 AM
LindaElane,

There's only one thing which really supports the idea that Joffrey was convinced, and that was how quickly Ser Ilyn Payne and Janos Slynt carried out the command. They would have known that Eddard was supposed to be allowed to take the black after his "confession."

The idea then runs that someone who was influence over them told them to carry out Joffrey's order immediately, if he should call for Eddard's head, and that same person then got to Joffrey and convinced him that killing Ned was far cooler than just giving him mercy.

Varys is ruled out -- Janos Slynt chuckled about Varys not knowing about it. Cersei seems ruled out because she carried on angrily, trying to stop Joffrey, but he ignored her.

This really leaves Littlefinger as the only option, although there is the slight possibility that Joffrey came up with it all on his lonesome and told Payne and Slynt to respond immediately, knowing his mother would stop it if they were slow.

labor
User ID: 0798784 May 17th 8:00 AM
Moreta, Cersei told Joff to pardon Ned. And whatever else, Joff usually does what Cersei tells him. So, IMHO he definitely had to be egged on by someone to exactly the opposite of what he was instructed to do...

Ser Gary, I am with you. Additionally, Littlefinger wouldn't want Ned to be able to tell anyone (Catelyn?) about the particularities of his treason... Note, that Catelyn still believes in Petyr's info as of end of ACOK and is apparently unaware of his perfidious role in Ned's fall. Given all the clues, even Ned (or Cat) could start to figure out that Littlefinger did all he could to catalyze the Stark-Lannister crash.
Also, Cersei, for instance, would be less than thrilled to learn that Littlefinger knew about the incest and proposed to substitute Joff with Renly if Joff became troublesome...

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 May 17th 8:48 AM
Tyrion also seems to think that someone else was behind it.

Hot Pie
User ID: 2518854 May 18th 6:31 PM
mayhaps some people in the free cities who would find it advantage in having the 7kingdoms at war so they copuld some one on the throne, and that person would be very friendly after that

wink wink nod nod........HOT PIE!!!!!!!!

Gregg
User ID: 8214233 May 25th 10:25 PM
I agree, Hot Pie. Petyr is an avatar of avarice, and unlike Varys, he has no need to serve someone. He plots to be king.
Here's my top 3 favorite ways for Petyr to die.
3. debtor's prison
2. A showdown with Varys (ala battle of wits from Princess Bride) where one or both end up poisoned. Man that would be cool! (anyone want to do a fan fiction of that scene?)
1. Eaten by Drogon.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 May 31st 11:43 PM
I think LittleFinger is a likely suspect. However, I don't want to discount Joffrey as a possibility. He is somewhat loony, he has a temper and at the time of Ned's execution he was trying to assert his own power and prove his own importance. Children are prone to defying their parents, he would hardly be the first. One final motivation for Joffrey would be that he would traumatize Sansa and make her fear him, which is something that he apparently desires (people fearing him).

Padraig
User ID: 8820133 Jun 1st 5:16 PM
I'm reluctant to think Joff thought up Ned's execution on his own although he could have. I see him as way too much a coward to do something like that without some major encouragement. he annoyed too many people.

MAD-ness
User ID: 3612744 Jun 1st 6:22 PM
Padraig: you assume that Joff is entirely sane and rational, whereas I assume that he is a bit loco and a lot irrational. I have no idea who is right, but it pretty much assures that we won't agree...as it is a matter of interpretation rather than quantifiable evidence from the books.

Remember Joffrey wanting to fight when Stannis came? Or in the tournies? I am not sure how much support he had in showing Sansa the heads on the spikes. It is hard to figure out where the Lannister lust for violence and power seperate from Joff's own lust for those things. Anyways, I see Joff as having a high violence quotient and even being a bit of a sadist. Lopping off the head of Ned Stark helped him to rebel against his mother, show Sansa his power and intimidate her, rebel against Varys and just get an ego boost in general. I think he tries very hard to be like his father...though he doesn't know Jaime is his father, he thinks he is emulating his uncle. What is it that someone says about Jaime somewhere...he loves to see his golden blade covered in blood, or something along those lines.

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Jun 2nd 5:02 PM
MAD-ness, I think Joff is a spoilt little puppy and too many people leave him have his childish fun. He wants to fight in tournies but he doesn't expect people to hurt him. Sort of like the Mycah incident.

But I do find him a bit loco and irrational too. But I don't remember any cases of him openly rebelling against serious orders. He may act a bit petulant but he seems to toe the line.

You give good reasons why he killed Ned but I think Littlefinger encouraged those thoughts rather than him thinking them up himself.

As he gets older I expect him to get more and more tyranical. At the moment though, IMO he is too much in trall of his mother;-)

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Jun 4th 2:50 PM
I think Cersei made a very interesting comment to Sansa in the latter part of ACOK. She was asking Sansa about Joffrey, and it was pretty clear that Sansa hated him. Cersei did not defend Joffrey, and flatly admitted that he was "difficult" -- or some other word to that effect. Cersei knows her son is twisted -- she's under no illusion that he something that he's not. That seemed an important admission to me given the general perception that she is blind to his faults -- she clearly is not.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jun 5th 7:56 AM
Didn't Cersei say that Sansa would at least learn to love Joffrey's children, which she would give birth to?

Seems kinda odd she would say something like that, considering her own marriage with Robert...

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jun 5th 8:56 AM
I think so. It seems like nobody is very fond of Joffrey, Tywin included. I guess that's a bit unfair because Cersei probably is at least "fond" of him, but he seems to have a decided lack of true supporters. That might not bode very well for him because almost everyone has reason to want him out of the way. so The exception might be the Tyrells, who are banking on Margaery's marriage to Joffrey.

The more I think about it, though, I don't know if the Kingdom could make it through five years with that idiot as King. Certainly, those years would not be uneventful enough to skip with the "gap". I think the twisted little brat is headed for a well-deserved demise in ASOS.

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Jun 5th 9:58 AM
Well I was thinking that Joffrey's survival would make it easier for Dany's return. 5 more years of Joffrey misrule is bound to help her cause. I don't expect any major occurances, just him upsetting a lord here and a lord there. He'll be around 19 then and the influence of people like Cersei and Tywin would be running thin. He would be trying to put his foot down. Instead he would make a lot of people very afraid. Or so I was thinking.

Next 20 Messages

Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 16th 12:15 PM This is a continuation of the "I loath the Imp" thread in A Clash of Kings II. The most recent issue being discussed was why Tyrion did not ask Janos Slynt to identify the individual responsible for arranging the execution of Ned Stark rather than his being sent to the Wall. The last couple of posts were as follows: Jeff User ID: 1536664 May 16th 9:16 AM Information is _always_ useful. Tyrion has been trying to figure out who has been behind which actions for quite a while. If Littlefinger was going behind Cersei's back for his own purposes, that could be a fairly powerful blackmail item to use against him. It certainly couldn't hurt to get thie information from Slynt, because there is no telling what juicy details may be included until you ask. Sure, Slynt is untrustworthy. But Tyrion had him cowed pretty thoroughly by the end of their talk. Plus, he had the leverage of Slynt's children and their future. Tyrion is a pretty shrewd judge of people, and I think he'd be able to parse out the lies from the truth. But even if he couldn't, not even _asking_ doesn't seem to make sense. Ran User ID: 0867924 May 16th 11:59 AM Again, he was angry. When he was done with Slynt, the last thing he wanted to do was drag him back to ask him a couple more questions. He was thoroughly disgusted. It wasn't rational, true, but in the scene it makes sense. It certainly is bothersome, but we all pretty much know the answer anyway I should think. Cersei isn't stupid enough, Varys doesn't want to rush it, Joffrey wouldn't have come up with it alone, and that leaves Petyr. ********************* I'm still not convinced it makes any sense at all, but I suspect this may be one of those questions to which there is no answer. The sole subject of Tyrion's conversation with Slynt was Slynt's role in Ned's death. To not ask who else was involved, well, I just don't think that was something that could have slipped Tyrion's mind. Would have been nice to have that on Littlefinger, because killing Ned made sure that Jaime would not be exchanged. Ned for Jaime would have been a reasonable exchange that Cersei would have loved. Tyrion may _suspect_ Littlefinger, but there's no telling what kind of evidence Slynt may have had. But I guess we just accept it as an anomoly.
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 16th 12:20 PM The sole subject? The first thing he actually talks about is Allar Deem and the death of Barra and her mother.
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	May 16th 9:54 PM Sorry I did not read the previous thread. Loathing the Imp seems impossible to me. :-) Who would loathe the greatest character in all of literature?.... At any rate, I am quite confused about "the arrangement of the execution of Ned". I thought Joffrey was mad and said to execute him rather than let him take the black. Can someone enlighten me?
Jeff User ID: 8813033	May 16th 10:12 PM The assumption has been that someone else got to Joffrey and convinced him to have Ned killed rather than take the black. But who was it?
LindaElane User ID: 0276214	May 16th 11:56 PM What were the grounds for the assumption?
Moreta User ID: 0701364	May 17th 0:12 AM IMHO, Joffrey still held a grudge. He never meant to keep his promise to grant Ned mercy. It was of his free will.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	May 17th 7:40 AM I'm sorry for what I'm about to say - bit IMHO it was Littlefinger, again. I realize I'm holding him responsible for just about every killing and attempted killing that's gone down in KL, but I think he had all sorts of motives with respect to seeing Ned dead. He wanted to exact revenge on Ned's family for the way Ned's brother treated him and he wanted to exact revenge on Catelyn for downplaying his advances. Plus, Ned's death and the several others he was probably behind would create a state of chaos (war, terror, political intrigue) in Westeros. A chaotic environment would offer all kinds of opportunities for a clever man such as himself. I think he's taken advantage of that enviroment to establish several personal alliances throughout the land.
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 17th 7:54 AM LindaElane, There's only one thing which really supports the idea that Joffrey was convinced, and that was how quickly Ser Ilyn Payne and Janos Slynt carried out the command. They would have known that Eddard was supposed to be allowed to take the black after his "confession." The idea then runs that someone who was influence over them told them to carry out Joffrey's order immediately, if he should call for Eddard's head, and that same person then got to Joffrey and convinced him that killing Ned was far cooler than just giving him mercy. Varys is ruled out -- Janos Slynt chuckled about Varys not knowing about it. Cersei seems ruled out because she carried on angrily, trying to stop Joffrey, but he ignored her. This really leaves Littlefinger as the only option, although there is the slight possibility that Joffrey came up with it all on his lonesome and told Payne and Slynt to respond immediately, knowing his mother would stop it if they were slow.
labor User ID: 0798784	May 17th 8:00 AM Moreta, Cersei told Joff to pardon Ned. And whatever else, Joff usually does what Cersei tells him. So, IMHO he definitely had to be egged on by someone to exactly the opposite of what he was instructed to do... Ser Gary, I am with you. Additionally, Littlefinger wouldn't want Ned to be able to tell anyone (Catelyn?) about the particularities of his treason... Note, that Catelyn still believes in Petyr's info as of end of ACOK and is apparently unaware of his perfidious role in Ned's fall. Given all the clues, even Ned (or Cat) could start to figure out that Littlefinger did all he could to catalyze the Stark-Lannister crash. Also, Cersei, for instance, would be less than thrilled to learn that Littlefinger knew about the incest and proposed to substitute Joff with Renly if Joff became troublesome...
Jeff User ID: 1536664	May 17th 8:48 AM Tyrion also seems to think that someone else was behind it.
Hot Pie User ID: 2518854	May 18th 6:31 PM mayhaps some people in the free cities who would find it advantage in having the 7kingdoms at war so they copuld some one on the throne, and that person would be very friendly after that wink wink nod nod........HOT PIE!!!!!!!!
Gregg User ID: 8214233	May 25th 10:25 PM I agree, Hot Pie. Petyr is an avatar of avarice, and unlike Varys, he has no need to serve someone. He plots to be king. Here's my top 3 favorite ways for Petyr to die. 3. debtor's prison 2. A showdown with Varys (ala battle of wits from Princess Bride) where one or both end up poisoned. Man that would be cool! (anyone want to do a fan fiction of that scene?) 1. Eaten by Drogon.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	May 31st 11:43 PM I think LittleFinger is a likely suspect. However, I don't want to discount Joffrey as a possibility. He is somewhat loony, he has a temper and at the time of Ned's execution he was trying to assert his own power and prove his own importance. Children are prone to defying their parents, he would hardly be the first. One final motivation for Joffrey would be that he would traumatize Sansa and make her fear him, which is something that he apparently desires (people fearing him).
Padraig User ID: 8820133	Jun 1st 5:16 PM I'm reluctant to think Joff thought up Ned's execution on his own although he could have. I see him as way too much a coward to do something like that without some major encouragement. he annoyed too many people.
MAD-ness User ID: 3612744	Jun 1st 6:22 PM Padraig: you assume that Joff is entirely sane and rational, whereas I assume that he is a bit loco and a lot irrational. I have no idea who is right, but it pretty much assures that we won't agree...as it is a matter of interpretation rather than quantifiable evidence from the books. Remember Joffrey wanting to fight when Stannis came? Or in the tournies? I am not sure how much support he had in showing Sansa the heads on the spikes. It is hard to figure out where the Lannister lust for violence and power seperate from Joff's own lust for those things. Anyways, I see Joff as having a high violence quotient and even being a bit of a sadist. Lopping off the head of Ned Stark helped him to rebel against his mother, show Sansa his power and intimidate her, rebel against Varys and just get an ego boost in general. I think he tries very hard to be like his father...though he doesn't know Jaime is his father, he thinks he is emulating his uncle. What is it that someone says about Jaime somewhere...he loves to see his golden blade covered in blood, or something along those lines.
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Jun 2nd 5:02 PM MAD-ness, I think Joff is a spoilt little puppy and too many people leave him have his childish fun. He wants to fight in tournies but he doesn't expect people to hurt him. Sort of like the Mycah incident. But I do find him a bit loco and irrational too. But I don't remember any cases of him openly rebelling against serious orders. He may act a bit petulant but he seems to toe the line. You give good reasons why he killed Ned but I think Littlefinger encouraged those thoughts rather than him thinking them up himself. As he gets older I expect him to get more and more tyranical. At the moment though, IMO he is too much in trall of his mother;-)
Jeff User ID: 8813033	Jun 4th 2:50 PM I think Cersei made a very interesting comment to Sansa in the latter part of ACOK. She was asking Sansa about Joffrey, and it was pretty clear that Sansa hated him. Cersei did not defend Joffrey, and flatly admitted that he was "difficult" -- or some other word to that effect. Cersei knows her son is twisted -- she's under no illusion that he something that he's not. That seemed an important admission to me given the general perception that she is blind to his faults -- she clearly is not.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jun 5th 7:56 AM Didn't Cersei say that Sansa would at least learn to love Joffrey's children, which she would give birth to? Seems kinda odd she would say something like that, considering her own marriage with Robert...
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jun 5th 8:56 AM I think so. It seems like nobody is very fond of Joffrey, Tywin included. I guess that's a bit unfair because Cersei probably is at least "fond" of him, but he seems to have a decided lack of true supporters. That might not bode very well for him because almost everyone has reason to want him out of the way. so The exception might be the Tyrells, who are banking on Margaery's marriage to Joffrey. The more I think about it, though, I don't know if the Kingdom could make it through five years with that idiot as King. Certainly, those years would not be uneventful enough to skip with the "gap". I think the twisted little brat is headed for a well-deserved demise in ASOS.
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Jun 5th 9:58 AM Well I was thinking that Joffrey's survival would make it easier for Dany's return. 5 more years of Joffrey misrule is bound to help her cause. I don't expect any major occurances, just him upsetting a lord here and a lord there. He'll be around 19 then and the influence of people like Cersei and Tywin would be running thin. He would be trying to put his foot down. Instead he would make a lot of people very afraid. Or so I was thinking.