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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Queen's family and Targayen incest.

Oder
User ID: 1920144 Aug 23rd 3:19 PM
On ASOIF I fond out that most of queen's family is mostly ambitious. the ambition leads to regicide.... Also is there a any reason why Targayen kings always married their family member because fearing that wife's family member becomes too powerful?? I mean this cannot only be old valryian tradition.

So far this is the Queen or queen to be's family member

Robert & Cersei lannister
Stannis & lady Florent
joffery Lannister & Marge tyrell
Robb & one of Freys

now all of the queens and queen to be came from powerful family (except florents). and most queens seemed to have great ambition for their family. Now the minor lord Florent now became much powerful lord who now even has power to bark orders to other stannis's banner man. Also freys and Tyrells are greatly powerful family (from his breech). and I think that those family is often ambitious. So any ideas?

Also is there any prevention whee their powers could be minimized and "controlled"?

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 23rd 3:38 PM
Well, can't comment on most of this, but ... the Freys are nowhere in the league of the Tyrells or the Lannisters. They're at least an order of magnitude and then some beneath each. They are fairly powerful among the lesser houses, but that doesn't mean much.

They are, however, above the Florents in any case (commanding a couple thousand more in their levies, as I recall, and probably having more liquid wealth.)

Ami
User ID: 2560524 Sep 8th 9:14 AM
Oder, I think it was mainly Valryian tradition, although an added bonus that they did not have to deal with competing families. Could they have prevented their demise if they had formed stronger alliances with other famlies? Perhaps. But the masses like tradition, look at all the religions that have survived over the centuries.

As far as Joff and Margarey go, I think Tywin did not have a choice, not only because Littlefinger arranged it, but he needs the support against Robb and Stannis. The more divided the Seven Kingdoms are the harder they are to conquer and I'm sure Tywin knows that. But he's undoubtedly in for a power struggle w/the Tyrells.

Flayed Man
User ID: 8771373 Sep 8th 10:57 AM
hmm say do any body think that Tyrells, Florents and Freys become Lannister II? (which means grow stronger than king's family)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 8th 11:07 AM
No chance in the world for the Florents or the Freys to get anywhere in the area of the Lannisters, unless the Lannisters are entirely deposed (killed off, stripped of Casterly Rock and its associated titles, lands, rights, and offices.)

The Tyrells on the other hand could very well end up that powerful.

Flayed Man
User ID: 8771373 Sep 9th 0:49 AM
hmm true true. hmm but even than I think Robb and Magery Tyrell will make perfect couple and I don't think Tyrells try to kill Robb like Lannisters plotted to kill Robert. Also I think Loras and Robb can getalong well. SO I think TYrells and stark Marraige won't make queen's family powerful or something. Also Norhterners are very loyal to him (I don't know about my infamous hero though) and Tyrells might not mess around. And besides I don't think Magery is as ambitous like Lannister bitch. so no worries here. but Lannisters and Tyrell Oh you bet there is going to be power struggle.

Maeglin
User ID: 9259363 Oct 16th 2:14 AM
It was probably to keep the Valyrian blood as pure as possible if the Targaryans didn't intermarry they would probably look the same as everyone else in the country

Padraig
User ID: 1696934 Oct 18th 12:59 PM
And the Targaryens must seem to be different from everyone else. Because they are better than everyone else.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 19th 9:50 AM
My guess is that inbreeding led to the demise of the Targaryen dragons as well. So, given that there's only Dany's three dragons, does that mean that this inbreeding is destined to repeat itself?

labor
User ID: 8479113 Oct 19th 4:28 PM

Well, I think that Targaryens originally inbred in order to retain the dragon-bonding abilities. In Valyria, IIRC the incestous marriages were common but not to exclusion of the other options, but without other dragonlords to marry Targaryens had to fall back on their own. It is also, IMHO, quite telling that the search for Rhaegar's bride was conducted in the Free Cities first - i.e. where Valyrian influence still seems quite strong and some decendants of Valyrians likely still survive.
As for their dragons - IIRC there are only 19 skulls in all and some of them are 3000 years old. Unfortunately we have no idea whatsoever about how inbred the dragons normally are and how many dragons were born after the Conquest. We don't even know if the original trio - Vhagar, Balerion and Meraxes, were related. I would say that for the rather long-lived creatures such as dragons, 150 years is an awfully short time to breed themselves out.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 19th 5:30 PM
Martin has stated that quite a large number of them died in the Dance of the Dragons. So I suspect that pretty much all of them (save that green female) were killed off in that one.

Pretty catastrophic civil war, that one.

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Oct 20th 1:06 PM
I suppose if most of the dragons were wiped out in the civil war then the Targaryens hadn't a choice but to imbreed.

labor
User ID: 8785553 Dec 18th 6:33 PM
Well, to ressurect this thread and give it a different direction:

What Targaryen trivia would you like to learn about most?

Well, I'll admit that I dream of a complete Targaryen genealogical tree for the time since the Conquest, with the birth and death dates of everyone including the spouses, _and_ the dragons :O ;).

Anyway, here are mine:

Why wasn't Rhaenyra Targaryen married to her brother and who was her husband?
I really would like to hear more about the Dance of the Dragons too, but that goes beyond the "trivia" scope.

Were Maekar I and Jahaerys II married to their sisters and if not, who were their wives?

Whose was the Targaryen "elder daughter" who married into Baratheons? Daeron II's? Baelor Breakspear's? Daeron the Drunken's?

Thoughts?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 7726333 Dec 18th 10:46 PM
Having created my own little genealogical tree for the Targaryen family, I have some questions myself.

Primary among them is the Dance of the Dragons. I would love it if GRRM wrote a bit about that.

Then there are tons of questions to fill in the gaps. Jaehaerys I (the Old King, 48-103) was followed by his grandson Viserys I, but how many children did Jaehaerys have?

Our old friend Egg (Aegon V, The Unlikely 233-259) had two sons. He was followed by Jaehaerys II, his second son. What happened to the first one?

Finally, there is the question of Daeron II's parentage. Was he Aegon IV's (The Unworthy, 172-184) son or Aemon the Dragonknight's son through an affair w/ Queen Naerys?

A fascinating family, to say the least.

dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Dec 19th 7:57 PM
Methinks that the Daughter that married into the Barratheon clan was Daeron the Drunkards dimwit daughter. I mean, there has to be a reason why Martin mentioned that the Barratheon's claimed a right to the throne through a Targaryon daughter a hundred years back; that, with Maester Aemon's mention of Daeron's daughter being passed over for Aegon (Egg) has to have some significance.

ab

Ran
User ID: 8075153 Dec 22nd 11:20 AM
Just got something back from Martin concerning one of those questions aske by labor, which I found rather interesting and in turn asked Martin about. Martin replied to the quote of Renly's from the books, where I then speculated on who the daughter might have belonged to:

<<"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, _of second sons and elder daughters._">>

Ummmm... I think you are putting a lot more weight on this slender branch than it can bear. Renly was a carefree and careless soul, and he was speaking in broad generalizations here. He cared almost nothing about the legal basis of his brother's claim, as the context makes clear; so far as he was concerned, the only thing that mattered was the size of your army.

....

It was one of my thoughts, anyhow, that Renly was probably generalizing and making an example of the kind of nitpicky details the maesters (who he says were the only people who really cared) go in for.

So, a Targaryen and a Baratheon, but no clear indication of when (I hold Renly's statement of 'a hundred years ago' to be a very broad rounding of the figure and not at all precise, if he's so uncaring about it) or who precisely.

This'll be going up on the SSM collection once I get some other things done, plus one or two more tidbits (labor's mail concerning inheritances, properties, large noble families, etc. and an amusing thing from Martin concerning some advertising HarperCollins has done in Britain.)

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 12th 1:44 PM
About Targaryen trivia;

I'd like to know how many attempts the Targaryens made on conquering Dorne after Aegon's landing - surely Daeron's wasn't the only one in 150 years?

I'd also like to hear a bit more on how they fared (badly, of course, but a little more detail than that would be nice :o).

Oder User ID: 1920144	Aug 23rd 3:19 PM On ASOIF I fond out that most of queen's family is mostly ambitious. the ambition leads to regicide.... Also is there a any reason why Targayen kings always married their family member because fearing that wife's family member becomes too powerful?? I mean this cannot only be old valryian tradition. So far this is the Queen or queen to be's family member Robert & Cersei lannister Stannis & lady Florent joffery Lannister & Marge tyrell Robb & one of Freys now all of the queens and queen to be came from powerful family (except florents). and most queens seemed to have great ambition for their family. Now the minor lord Florent now became much powerful lord who now even has power to bark orders to other stannis's banner man. Also freys and Tyrells are greatly powerful family (from his breech). and I think that those family is often ambitious. So any ideas? Also is there any prevention whee their powers could be minimized and "controlled"?
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 23rd 3:38 PM Well, can't comment on most of this, but ... the Freys are nowhere in the league of the Tyrells or the Lannisters. They're at least an order of magnitude and then some beneath each. They are fairly powerful among the lesser houses, but that doesn't mean much. They are, however, above the Florents in any case (commanding a couple thousand more in their levies, as I recall, and probably having more liquid wealth.)
Ami User ID: 2560524	Sep 8th 9:14 AM Oder, I think it was mainly Valryian tradition, although an added bonus that they did not have to deal with competing families. Could they have prevented their demise if they had formed stronger alliances with other famlies? Perhaps. But the masses like tradition, look at all the religions that have survived over the centuries. As far as Joff and Margarey go, I think Tywin did not have a choice, not only because Littlefinger arranged it, but he needs the support against Robb and Stannis. The more divided the Seven Kingdoms are the harder they are to conquer and I'm sure Tywin knows that. But he's undoubtedly in for a power struggle w/the Tyrells.
Flayed Man User ID: 8771373	Sep 8th 10:57 AM hmm say do any body think that Tyrells, Florents and Freys become Lannister II? (which means grow stronger than king's family)
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 8th 11:07 AM No chance in the world for the Florents or the Freys to get anywhere in the area of the Lannisters, unless the Lannisters are entirely deposed (killed off, stripped of Casterly Rock and its associated titles, lands, rights, and offices.) The Tyrells on the other hand could very well end up that powerful.
Flayed Man User ID: 8771373	Sep 9th 0:49 AM hmm true true. hmm but even than I think Robb and Magery Tyrell will make perfect couple and I don't think Tyrells try to kill Robb like Lannisters plotted to kill Robert. Also I think Loras and Robb can getalong well. SO I think TYrells and stark Marraige won't make queen's family powerful or something. Also Norhterners are very loyal to him (I don't know about my infamous hero though) and Tyrells might not mess around. And besides I don't think Magery is as ambitous like Lannister bitch. so no worries here. but Lannisters and Tyrell Oh you bet there is going to be power struggle.
Maeglin User ID: 9259363	Oct 16th 2:14 AM It was probably to keep the Valyrian blood as pure as possible if the Targaryans didn't intermarry they would probably look the same as everyone else in the country
Padraig User ID: 1696934	Oct 18th 12:59 PM And the Targaryens must seem to be different from everyone else. Because they are better than everyone else.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 19th 9:50 AM My guess is that inbreeding led to the demise of the Targaryen dragons as well. So, given that there's only Dany's three dragons, does that mean that this inbreeding is destined to repeat itself?
labor User ID: 8479113	Oct 19th 4:28 PM Well, I think that Targaryens originally inbred in order to retain the dragon-bonding abilities. In Valyria, IIRC the incestous marriages were common but not to exclusion of the other options, but without other dragonlords to marry Targaryens had to fall back on their own. It is also, IMHO, quite telling that the search for Rhaegar's bride was conducted in the Free Cities first - i.e. where Valyrian influence still seems quite strong and some decendants of Valyrians likely still survive. As for their dragons - IIRC there are only 19 skulls in all and some of them are 3000 years old. Unfortunately we have no idea whatsoever about how inbred the dragons normally are and how many dragons were born after the Conquest. We don't even know if the original trio - Vhagar, Balerion and Meraxes, were related. I would say that for the rather long-lived creatures such as dragons, 150 years is an awfully short time to breed themselves out.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 19th 5:30 PM Martin has stated that quite a large number of them died in the Dance of the Dragons. So I suspect that pretty much all of them (save that green female) were killed off in that one. Pretty catastrophic civil war, that one.
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Oct 20th 1:06 PM I suppose if most of the dragons were wiped out in the civil war then the Targaryens hadn't a choice but to imbreed.
labor User ID: 8785553	Dec 18th 6:33 PM Well, to ressurect this thread and give it a different direction: What Targaryen trivia would you like to learn about most? Well, I'll admit that I dream of a complete Targaryen genealogical tree for the time since the Conquest, with the birth and death dates of everyone including the spouses, _and_ the dragons :O ;). Anyway, here are mine: Why wasn't Rhaenyra Targaryen married to her brother and who was her husband? I really would like to hear more about the Dance of the Dragons too, but that goes beyond the "trivia" scope. Were Maekar I and Jahaerys II married to their sisters and if not, who were their wives? Whose was the Targaryen "elder daughter" who married into Baratheons? Daeron II's? Baelor Breakspear's? Daeron the Drunken's? Thoughts?
Ser Benjen User ID: 7726333	Dec 18th 10:46 PM Having created my own little genealogical tree for the Targaryen family, I have some questions myself. Primary among them is the Dance of the Dragons. I would love it if GRRM wrote a bit about that. Then there are tons of questions to fill in the gaps. Jaehaerys I (the Old King, 48-103) was followed by his grandson Viserys I, but how many children did Jaehaerys have? Our old friend Egg (Aegon V, The Unlikely 233-259) had two sons. He was followed by Jaehaerys II, his second son. What happened to the first one? Finally, there is the question of Daeron II's parentage. Was he Aegon IV's (The Unworthy, 172-184) son or Aemon the Dragonknight's son through an affair w/ Queen Naerys? A fascinating family, to say the least.
dirjj User ID: 0094674	Dec 19th 7:57 PM Methinks that the Daughter that married into the Barratheon clan was Daeron the Drunkards dimwit daughter. I mean, there has to be a reason why Martin mentioned that the Barratheon's claimed a right to the throne through a Targaryon daughter a hundred years back; that, with Maester Aemon's mention of Daeron's daughter being passed over for Aegon (Egg) has to have some significance. ab
Ran User ID: 8075153	Dec 22nd 11:20 AM Just got something back from Martin concerning one of those questions aske by labor, which I found rather interesting and in turn asked Martin about. Martin replied to the quote of Renly's from the books, where I then speculated on who the daughter might have belonged to: <<"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, _of second sons and elder daughters._">> Ummmm... I think you are putting a lot more weight on this slender branch than it can bear. Renly was a carefree and careless soul, and he was speaking in broad generalizations here. He cared almost nothing about the legal basis of his brother's claim, as the context makes clear; so far as he was concerned, the only thing that mattered was the size of your army. .... It was one of my thoughts, anyhow, that Renly was probably generalizing and making an example of the kind of nitpicky details the maesters (who he says were the only people who really cared) go in for. So, a Targaryen and a Baratheon, but no clear indication of when (I hold Renly's statement of 'a hundred years ago' to be a very broad rounding of the figure and not at all precise, if he's so uncaring about it) or who precisely. This'll be going up on the SSM collection once I get some other things done, plus one or two more tidbits (labor's mail concerning inheritances, properties, large noble families, etc. and an amusing thing from Martin concerning some advertising HarperCollins has done in Britain.)
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 12th 1:44 PM About Targaryen trivia; I'd like to know how many attempts the Targaryens made on conquering Dorne after Aegon's landing - surely Daeron's wasn't the only one in 150 years? I'd also like to hear a bit more on how they fared (badly, of course, but a little more detail than that would be nice :o).