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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / ACOK Celebrity Death Match

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Zelticgar
User ID: 9328513 Aug 26th 6:02 PM
Three theoretical fights, who is the winner and why? Remember these are fights to the death.

Round one- Bronn vs Jaime Lannister
Jaime is arguably the toughest fighter in the Seven Kingdoms but there is something about Tyrions sellsword that implies a great warrior. I favor Jaime slightly.

Round two- Robb Stark vs Ser Loras Tyrell
Ser Loras has certainly proved himself as a one on one fighter. Can Robb fight without his Wolf? I think so. I favor Robb because he has Ned's blood in him and Loras got his ass kicked by a girl last time out. (sorry Carol, KAH, Min etc. that was the most unrealistic event in the whole series so far.)

Main event- Littlefinger vs. Varys
Littlefinger has fighting experience but there is something about Varys' past that implies to me he can fight.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 26th 7:38 PM
Unrealistic my arse. ;)

What exactly is unrealistic about a 6'8", muscular , thyroid-troubled woman beating on a slim, 5'10", amazing warrior? ;)

There _are_ tall women, there _are_ muscular women. 'Unrealistic' to me is if she were 12 feet tall and moved as quickly as .. as ... uh .... something really fast. But that? Nope. ;)

<rant mode off> ;)

My vote's for Littlefinger beating Varys. As far as I can recall, he's in better shape too -- Varys is apparently a bit on the portly side.

Zelticgar
User ID: 9328513 Aug 26th 8:21 PM
Round four- Zelticgar Vs. Ran!!!
Brienne is not a realistic character. It a world of unique believable characters she does not really work. Women, especially in a feudal society, would not be able to achieve the PHYSICAL prowess to equal a man. Especially a legitimate warrior.:)
Also I would like to see Varys fight. Anyone who grew up in the gutters and survived the streets to rise to his station has to be tough. Littlefinger may be trained in the manner of nobility to fight but I'll take Varys' street toughness anyday. Varys takes Littlefinger to the mat.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Aug 27th 3:08 AM
Zeltic;

Why not?

The physical potential was already there, and it seems that Brienne's father loved her - it's not entirely stupid that the Evenstar would indulge an ugly (as in 'not bloody likely to marry')daughter's wish of learning how to fight.

labor
User ID: 8785553 Aug 27th 3:25 AM

Scathelgaita (?) wouldn't agree with you, Zeltigar. She was a tall, muscular womwn, taller and stronger than most men. She also was one of the most fearsome warriors and best general of her husband, Robert Guiscard, King of Lombards. Used to lead the charges of his cavalry. IIRC there was a female samurai too, who fought beside her husband. And of course there were several women in 18th and 19th century, who fought in wars in the guise of men - quite successfully.

Zelticgar
User ID: 9328513 Aug 27th 5:12 AM
I do not want to seem piggish but I dont care if the Evenstar trained his daughter every day since she was a babe. In a fight that involved scores of men there is no way a women is going to come out on top. I do not care what your arguement is - it wont happen.
The men would gang up on her as a matter of principal.

I am willing to admit in a one on one fight it is possible she could get lucky and beat Loras but not in a Meele.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 27th 5:30 AM
Oh, come on, Zelticgar.

I don't know what take you have on how guys act, but my take has several options.

First, at the beginning, some folk just scoff and ignore her. Others laugh and decide to go after her, underestimating her. So, those fools are gone pretty quickly because they're probably not the most skillful of the fighters.

Ganging up out of principle? Perfectly all right for knights to gang up on another knight -- that's the game. But what knight in his right mind will want the smear on his honor of having needed others to help him dispatch a _woman_?

Towards the end I can see it, simply because by then people will be _forced_ to accept her skill (at least inside the melee field -- the observers will curse and gripe all they like.) And we do see it, a couple of guys going at her at the same time. But at the very beginning? If there were more than two at a time at any moment, I'll be surprised.

Oenone
User ID: 0645514 Aug 27th 5:36 AM
Round 1: Bronn would definately win the fight in my opinion. Remember why he won the duel over Tyrion (sorry I don't remember the Knight he fought ;-]), He fought in Chainmail whereas the other Knight was wearing full plate. I actually belong to a Medievil Weapons club and have fought in both chain and plate and let me tell you I'd take chain any day of the week!
In fact the only reason Knights actually used plate is because it was a symbol of their rank and was expected of them. Many Knights actually died in combat because of asphyxiation (sp?). Besides Bronn is one of my favourites ;-].

Round 2: I would say that Ser Loras would win this one. Ser Loras is just to experienced to be beaten by Robb. On the other hand Robb is definately the better tactician.

Round 3: This one has me stumped. I'd say that Littlefinger is the better fighter, but Varys would be more cunning. This is definately an interesting match up!

How about Syrio Vs Gregor Clegane?

labor
User ID: 8785553 Aug 27th 6:15 AM

Round 1:
Jaime and Bronn. I really don't know. Oenone, medieval weapons and armor buffs periodically and loudly claim on various newsgroups that a well-made plate armor is flexible enough to fight on foot in and on occasion lighter than mail. I don't know. But if there is a disadvantage in fighting on foot in full armor, Jaime would be clever enough to arm himself more lightly.

Round 2.
Robb doesn't have a prayer against Ser Loras. Yes, he is "Ned's blood" and did survive a few battles (with 30 bodyguards), but Ned himself was only an adequate fighter, according to GRRM. And Robb was realistic enough to know that if Jaime had gotten to fight him one on one, he (Robb) would be dead. As a swordfighter or rider Jon was better than Robb and Jon still couldn't have beaten Quorin without his wolf.
Loras, OTOH, fought all the best fighters of Westeros in jousts and melees since he was 16 and always came near the top.

Round 3.
Varys would have to know how to defend himself - he visits some very rough localities without bodyguards. He is indeed portly, but so is Belwas. We don't really know if Littlefinger kept up his training, though, and he wasn't a particulary good fighter to begin with. I would tentatively bet on Varys - he is bound to know a lot of dirty tricks learnt in the back allees of the Free Cities and likely had to fight for survival quite often.

Daniel
User ID: 0025534 Aug 27th 8:31 AM
In a Celebrity Deathmatch on MTV, anything would be allowed, including Grey Wind. He would rip the prettyboy apart before he even entered the ring.

Ami
User ID: 8890073 Aug 27th 10:40 AM
LOL!!! I can't believe you guys are reduced to this!!! ;) But I can't resist...

1. Bronn, no doubt, for reasons Oenone listed.

2. Loras, unless, of course, Grey Wind is included.

3. Varys, for reasons Labor listed.

Syrio vs Gregor? I'm not even touching that one!!

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Aug 27th 10:54 AM
Round 1: If that fight were to take place at the current place in the story I would take Bronn. Jaime has been sitting in a cell for some months and his own physical shape has deteriorated (muscle atrophy out of shape). However if Jaime were in the shape he was before the battle of the Whispering wood I think he would win. Simply because he is renowned. He cut up Robb's guard pretty bad in that fight so I don't doubt he's ferocious and formidable when he fights.

2. I haven't seen or heard enough of Robb's abilities one on one to say he could beat Loras. Robb seems to depend on surprise and Grey Wind alot in his fights.

3. Littlefinger would beat the living sh&t out of Varys in an open confrontation. Varys is fat, and doesn't use weapons much personally.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Aug 27th 11:03 AM
1. Jaime. Bronn beat an aging Knight by outwitting him. We've just seen Jaime chop his way through a bunch of knights and almost get Robb.

2. Loras. Not even close unless Grey Wind participates. We've no real indication that Robb is anything better than an average fighter and we know Loras is much better than that.

3. Very close. I'd go with Varys because he's the only guy in Westeros more devious than Littlefinger.

4. I'd take Syrio over Gregor. Syrio whipped through a bunch of Lannister guardsmen armed only with a staff. It would be similar to Bronn v. Jaime except Gregor is not as good as Jaime.

BTW, I very rarely watch "Celebrity Deathmatch", maybe twice during its entire run, but did see it last night. It was "The Three Tenors v. The Three Stooges". It was hilarious.

For those who care, it came down to Curly versus Carrera and Domingo. Curly won.

Mike H.
User ID: 8290473 Aug 27th 11:08 AM
Round 1: Jaime.

Round 2: Loras. We don't know enough about Robb's individual skill.

Round 3: Varys - with a poison dagger. ;-)

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Aug 27th 12:05 PM
Bronn or Jaime?: I'll take Jaime, since he probably has a better sneer. :)

Loras or Robb?: I'll take Robb since Loras will be overwhelmed by the closeness of another male form.

Varys or Littlefinger?: I'll take Varys after he convinces Littlefinger that it's in his own best interest to lose. Less than a minute.

Ken
User ID: 8360413 Aug 28th 5:01 PM
Bronn, Loras, Littlefinger, and Syrio.
How about a cat-fight between the overprotective mothers : Cersei vs Catelyn?

Ken
User ID: 8360413 Aug 29th 0:15 AM
How could I forget Lysa Arryn?
Throw her in the ring, too.

haaruk Aug 29th 12:14 PM
Loras is a freak. At 15 he beat Jaime at tourney. He not only fights superbly he is preternaturally cunning. Despite his physical gifts he still seeks any and every advantage in a fight. That shows his tactical acumen. To win against superb fighters at his age his concentration must be incredible. Nothing in Robb's dossier shows him to be in Loras's class. The Pimp of Flowers is in a class of his own.

Bronn and Jaime is the tough one. The edge to Bronn. Jaime seems to be the ultimate loser. Talent with a death wish. He is reckless in the extreme. Coming close but never the trophy. His resume' is filled with defeats not victories. His greatest victory tastes like dust to him. Bronn is perhaps less gifted but more careful. Solid. No weaknesses. Patient. A superior defensive philosophy. He would absorb Jaime's initial passion and parry for the inevitable mistake. Jaime will make it.

Zelticgar
User ID: 0046004 Aug 29th 4:30 PM
Ran,
I just got back from a trip so I have not had a chance to respond but from your remarks that Brienne would survive a melee because knights would show honor does not wash. I am sure none would hesitate to gang up on her immediately. If she were qualified to enter then she would not be handled with kid gloves. Brienne is not a realistic character and in a real medievil society she is in the stands cheering for the men.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Aug 29th 5:02 PM
It's not honor, Zelticgar. :)

It's self-respect. It's the difference between committing a dishonorable tactic (which concept doesn't really exist in the melee) and preserving ones own prestige (which is the entire _point_ of entering a contest -- showing how good you are against opponents; but any man who needed others to help him take out an ugly woman is going to be laughed at by somebody.)

Of course, the setting is not a 'real medieval society.' On the other hand, women have engaged in battles and even lead armies in Medieval Europe. None that I can think of ever took part in a tourney, but then ... one never knows if the conditions that would allow a woman of a particular sort to enter could have come about. All it takes is a lenient father, glandular problems, and a lenient king.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Zelticgar User ID: 9328513	Aug 26th 6:02 PM Three theoretical fights, who is the winner and why? Remember these are fights to the death. Round one- Bronn vs Jaime Lannister Jaime is arguably the toughest fighter in the Seven Kingdoms but there is something about Tyrions sellsword that implies a great warrior. I favor Jaime slightly. Round two- Robb Stark vs Ser Loras Tyrell Ser Loras has certainly proved himself as a one on one fighter. Can Robb fight without his Wolf? I think so. I favor Robb because he has Ned's blood in him and Loras got his ass kicked by a girl last time out. (sorry Carol, KAH, Min etc. that was the most unrealistic event in the whole series so far.) Main event- Littlefinger vs. Varys Littlefinger has fighting experience but there is something about Varys' past that implies to me he can fight.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 26th 7:38 PM Unrealistic my arse. ;) What exactly is unrealistic about a 6'8", muscular , thyroid-troubled woman beating on a slim, 5'10", amazing warrior? ;) There _are_ tall women, there _are_ muscular women. 'Unrealistic' to me is if she were 12 feet tall and moved as quickly as .. as ... uh .... something really fast. But that? Nope. ;) <rant mode off> ;) My vote's for Littlefinger beating Varys. As far as I can recall, he's in better shape too -- Varys is apparently a bit on the portly side.
Zelticgar User ID: 9328513	Aug 26th 8:21 PM Round four- Zelticgar Vs. Ran!!! Brienne is not a realistic character. It a world of unique believable characters she does not really work. Women, especially in a feudal society, would not be able to achieve the PHYSICAL prowess to equal a man. Especially a legitimate warrior.:) Also I would like to see Varys fight. Anyone who grew up in the gutters and survived the streets to rise to his station has to be tough. Littlefinger may be trained in the manner of nobility to fight but I'll take Varys' street toughness anyday. Varys takes Littlefinger to the mat.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Aug 27th 3:08 AM Zeltic; Why not? The physical potential was already there, and it seems that Brienne's father loved her - it's not entirely stupid that the Evenstar would indulge an ugly (as in 'not bloody likely to marry')daughter's wish of learning how to fight.
labor User ID: 8785553	Aug 27th 3:25 AM Scathelgaita (?) wouldn't agree with you, Zeltigar. She was a tall, muscular womwn, taller and stronger than most men. She also was one of the most fearsome warriors and best general of her husband, Robert Guiscard, King of Lombards. Used to lead the charges of his cavalry. IIRC there was a female samurai too, who fought beside her husband. And of course there were several women in 18th and 19th century, who fought in wars in the guise of men - quite successfully.
Zelticgar User ID: 9328513	Aug 27th 5:12 AM I do not want to seem piggish but I dont care if the Evenstar trained his daughter every day since she was a babe. In a fight that involved scores of men there is no way a women is going to come out on top. I do not care what your arguement is - it wont happen. The men would gang up on her as a matter of principal. I am willing to admit in a one on one fight it is possible she could get lucky and beat Loras but not in a Meele.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 27th 5:30 AM Oh, come on, Zelticgar. I don't know what take you have on how guys act, but my take has several options. First, at the beginning, some folk just scoff and ignore her. Others laugh and decide to go after her, underestimating her. So, those fools are gone pretty quickly because they're probably not the most skillful of the fighters. Ganging up out of principle? Perfectly all right for knights to gang up on another knight -- that's the game. But what knight in his right mind will want the smear on his honor of having needed others to help him dispatch a _woman_? Towards the end I can see it, simply because by then people will be _forced_ to accept her skill (at least inside the melee field -- the observers will curse and gripe all they like.) And we do see it, a couple of guys going at her at the same time. But at the very beginning? If there were more than two at a time at any moment, I'll be surprised.
Oenone User ID: 0645514	Aug 27th 5:36 AM Round 1: Bronn would definately win the fight in my opinion. Remember why he won the duel over Tyrion (sorry I don't remember the Knight he fought ;-]), He fought in Chainmail whereas the other Knight was wearing full plate. I actually belong to a Medievil Weapons club and have fought in both chain and plate and let me tell you I'd take chain any day of the week! In fact the only reason Knights actually used plate is because it was a symbol of their rank and was expected of them. Many Knights actually died in combat because of asphyxiation (sp?). Besides Bronn is one of my favourites ;-]. Round 2: I would say that Ser Loras would win this one. Ser Loras is just to experienced to be beaten by Robb. On the other hand Robb is definately the better tactician. Round 3: This one has me stumped. I'd say that Littlefinger is the better fighter, but Varys would be more cunning. This is definately an interesting match up! How about Syrio Vs Gregor Clegane?
labor User ID: 8785553	Aug 27th 6:15 AM Round 1: Jaime and Bronn. I really don't know. Oenone, medieval weapons and armor buffs periodically and loudly claim on various newsgroups that a well-made plate armor is flexible enough to fight on foot in and on occasion lighter than mail. I don't know. But if there is a disadvantage in fighting on foot in full armor, Jaime would be clever enough to arm himself more lightly. Round 2. Robb doesn't have a prayer against Ser Loras. Yes, he is "Ned's blood" and did survive a few battles (with 30 bodyguards), but Ned himself was only an adequate fighter, according to GRRM. And Robb was realistic enough to know that if Jaime had gotten to fight him one on one, he (Robb) would be dead. As a swordfighter or rider Jon was better than Robb and Jon still couldn't have beaten Quorin without his wolf. Loras, OTOH, fought all the best fighters of Westeros in jousts and melees since he was 16 and always came near the top. Round 3. Varys would have to know how to defend himself - he visits some very rough localities without bodyguards. He is indeed portly, but so is Belwas. We don't really know if Littlefinger kept up his training, though, and he wasn't a particulary good fighter to begin with. I would tentatively bet on Varys - he is bound to know a lot of dirty tricks learnt in the back allees of the Free Cities and likely had to fight for survival quite often.
Daniel User ID: 0025534	Aug 27th 8:31 AM In a Celebrity Deathmatch on MTV, anything would be allowed, including Grey Wind. He would rip the prettyboy apart before he even entered the ring.
Ami User ID: 8890073	Aug 27th 10:40 AM LOL!!! I can't believe you guys are reduced to this!!! ;) But I can't resist... 1. Bronn, no doubt, for reasons Oenone listed. 2. Loras, unless, of course, Grey Wind is included. 3. Varys, for reasons Labor listed. Syrio vs Gregor? I'm not even touching that one!!
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Aug 27th 10:54 AM Round 1: If that fight were to take place at the current place in the story I would take Bronn. Jaime has been sitting in a cell for some months and his own physical shape has deteriorated (muscle atrophy out of shape). However if Jaime were in the shape he was before the battle of the Whispering wood I think he would win. Simply because he is renowned. He cut up Robb's guard pretty bad in that fight so I don't doubt he's ferocious and formidable when he fights. 2. I haven't seen or heard enough of Robb's abilities one on one to say he could beat Loras. Robb seems to depend on surprise and Grey Wind alot in his fights. 3. Littlefinger would beat the living sh&t out of Varys in an open confrontation. Varys is fat, and doesn't use weapons much personally.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Aug 27th 11:03 AM 1. Jaime. Bronn beat an aging Knight by outwitting him. We've just seen Jaime chop his way through a bunch of knights and almost get Robb. 2. Loras. Not even close unless Grey Wind participates. We've no real indication that Robb is anything better than an average fighter and we know Loras is much better than that. 3. Very close. I'd go with Varys because he's the only guy in Westeros more devious than Littlefinger. 4. I'd take Syrio over Gregor. Syrio whipped through a bunch of Lannister guardsmen armed only with a staff. It would be similar to Bronn v. Jaime except Gregor is not as good as Jaime. BTW, I very rarely watch "Celebrity Deathmatch", maybe twice during its entire run, but did see it last night. It was "The Three Tenors v. The Three Stooges". It was hilarious. For those who care, it came down to Curly versus Carrera and Domingo. Curly won.
Mike H. User ID: 8290473	Aug 27th 11:08 AM Round 1: Jaime. Round 2: Loras. We don't know enough about Robb's individual skill. Round 3: Varys - with a poison dagger. ;-)
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Aug 27th 12:05 PM Bronn or Jaime?: I'll take Jaime, since he probably has a better sneer. :) Loras or Robb?: I'll take Robb since Loras will be overwhelmed by the closeness of another male form. Varys or Littlefinger?: I'll take Varys after he convinces Littlefinger that it's in his own best interest to lose. Less than a minute.
Ken User ID: 8360413	Aug 28th 5:01 PM Bronn, Loras, Littlefinger, and Syrio. How about a cat-fight between the overprotective mothers : Cersei vs Catelyn?
Ken User ID: 8360413	Aug 29th 0:15 AM How could I forget Lysa Arryn? Throw her in the ring, too.
haaruk	Aug 29th 12:14 PM Loras is a freak. At 15 he beat Jaime at tourney. He not only fights superbly he is preternaturally cunning. Despite his physical gifts he still seeks any and every advantage in a fight. That shows his tactical acumen. To win against superb fighters at his age his concentration must be incredible. Nothing in Robb's dossier shows him to be in Loras's class. The Pimp of Flowers is in a class of his own. Bronn and Jaime is the tough one. The edge to Bronn. Jaime seems to be the ultimate loser. Talent with a death wish. He is reckless in the extreme. Coming close but never the trophy. His resume' is filled with defeats not victories. His greatest victory tastes like dust to him. Bronn is perhaps less gifted but more careful. Solid. No weaknesses. Patient. A superior defensive philosophy. He would absorb Jaime's initial passion and parry for the inevitable mistake. Jaime will make it.
Zelticgar User ID: 0046004	Aug 29th 4:30 PM Ran, I just got back from a trip so I have not had a chance to respond but from your remarks that Brienne would survive a melee because knights would show honor does not wash. I am sure none would hesitate to gang up on her immediately. If she were qualified to enter then she would not be handled with kid gloves. Brienne is not a realistic character and in a real medievil society she is in the stands cheering for the men.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Aug 29th 5:02 PM It's not honor, Zelticgar. :) It's self-respect. It's the difference between committing a dishonorable tactic (which concept doesn't really exist in the melee) and preserving ones own prestige (which is the entire _point_ of entering a contest -- showing how good you are against opponents; but any man who needed others to help him take out an ugly woman is going to be laughed at by somebody.) Of course, the setting is not a 'real medieval society.' On the other hand, women have engaged in battles and even lead armies in Medieval Europe. None that I can think of ever took part in a tourney, but then ... one never knows if the conditions that would allow a woman of a particular sort to enter could have come about. All it takes is a lenient father, glandular problems, and a lenient king.