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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Sansa III

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Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 Aug 31st 9:33 AM
This is in reply to the latest post from labor on the 'Sansa II' section. We were discussing possible influence Sansa might get at court, specifically with the Lannisters and their close allies.

labor;

Tommen would be a puppet king for a very long time, so any influence Sansa got there would be rather thin - only decisions that does not concern
Tywin in the slightest would be managable for influencing. But if he and Sansa got chummy, Sansa might get influence with other people at court who wants to curry favor with the king.

Tyrion is, IMHO, too smart to really be twined around Sansa's fingers - he might protect her from Cersei's vindictiveness, but would not let her go himself, until her hostage status was not crucial to Jaime's well-being. What good such a contact would do in the future, depends largely on whether Jaime dies in Stark captivity, and his view on Starks in general, due to this (probably not very positive).

Littlefinger is much like Tyrion, although he has not the same immediate reason to use Sansa as Tyrion has. Should a marriage be arranged, I'd think Sansa could really get some impact at court (much depending on Petyr's awareness and reaction to any scheming on her part) - but her star would then rise and fall with Petyr's, IMHO.

Margaery - dunno. Depends on Joffrey, largely (and hence her brother Loras, who initially might be rather pissed at anyone with Stark blood). Elsewise it is much like with Tommen, methinks - Tywin will effectively rule the realm for a long time (if he does not die, of course).

Perhaps Lancel is a faint chance, too (unless he dies). True, he was not exactly sympathetic towards her after Robb finished 'Uncle Dolt' and his army by Oxcross, but OTOH she helped him (an enemy) when he was wounded, just after his cousin and lover Cersei had fended him off like a fly.

I'm not sure what good would come from such an alliance - Lancel might be a Lannister, and newly made head of a powerful house in the Riverlands (the former Darry stronghold), but it seems to me that our Wineskin warrior is not exactly bright (although that might just as easily be positive as negative for Sansa). There's also the chance that Cersei will have him killed.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 5th 12:17 PM
I think her influence on Petyr Baelish could be bigger if she knew - or would be willing to - strike the right cords. I hear his words ringing in my ears "You look exactly like your mother" and the like. But she would have to understand the possible power of that influence first. And then, as I said, be willing to strike these cords. Which I think she is not.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 6th 9:35 AM
Well, the understanding is the trouble right now. She might get something out of her 'lessons' with Cersei, I guess...

But I do not think she has many compunctions about using that influence, especially if Petyr forces her to marry him.

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 8th 3:57 PM
Didn't Ser Loras give her the flowers during the Hand's Tournay? I don't have my books with me. I don't believe that the Knight of the Flowers will obey an order from King Joff to beat Sansa, or his sister.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 8th 4:15 PM
Ser Loras gave Sansa a single red rose (unlike the white rose he was giving to pretty women throughout the tourney) and declared that no flower was as fair as she was.

While I think what Loras will do should Joff try to test him by commanding him to beat Sansa will be an interesting measure of just what sort of a man he is, I don't know if I can honestly say I think he'll disobey it. His sister's one thing, perhaps, but Sansa is quite another (not that I think Joff will order Maergary beaten while Tywin is around -- the Tyrell alliance is too important.)

If he does it, there can be more reasons than just the necessities of knightly vows. Some have speculated (and even might yet speculate, I suppose) that the Tyrells are setting up to take over the whole works. So ... keeping in the king's good graces might simply further Tyrell plans which Loras Tyrell probably would interpret as being for the best of the kingdom.

If he doesn't ... well, I think he'll have shown his moral worth.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 8th 4:26 PM
If Loras beats Sansa, she will get yet another hard lesson in life. Pretty boy Loras, allegedly gallant beyond words, beating a defenseless 13-year-old girl. Compare all that he supposedly represents against the rough-hewn, inarticualte Sandor, who simply refused to participate in such a thing. What's a young girl to think?

Moreta
User ID: 9565813 Sep 8th 9:48 PM
Actually, Sandor didn't refuse to beat Sansa. Dontos saved him from replying. GRRM did that on purpose, I think.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 9th 7:23 AM
I don't remember the details myself. But if put in that position, how might Sandor have reacted? Would he have beaten Sansa? What might he have done instead? Flipped out?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 9th 8:10 AM
A strange thing, that. Joff never made use of Sandor to beat Sansa.
Maybe the Hound declined to follow his orders?

Ami
User ID: 1195644 Sep 9th 8:41 AM
I think his obediance would have taken precedence(?) in that situation, though, he probably would not have hit her very hard _or_ he didn't seem to have a problem saying things to Joff that supported others around him. I didnt' quite word that right, what I mean is you never see the other King's guard's say anything that contridicted Joff, but Sandor backed Sansa at Joff's tourney and when Joff told Myrcella to stop being childish and she said they were children and Sandor said she's got you there; even though it was lighthearted, you never see any of the other guards do or say anything like that, at least not that I recall. So Sandor might have haphazardly mocked Joff saying something like " you want me to hit a little girl?" or " save me for killing your enemies not your betrothed"...

Am I way off w/this? Does this make any sense at all?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 9th 9:01 AM
Ami;

I think you've hit the nail on the head - it's just the kind of reaction Sandor could produce. And Joff might go with that - for a while, at least.

As for the other guards - there were one, at least, that tried to balk at Joff's orders - Aerys(?) Oakheart, I think.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 9th 9:25 AM
I think Joff is a little afraid of Sandor. He's Joff's protector, sworn shield to Joffrey. Without Sandor, where is the arrogance of Joff? Sure, now he has seven (or six not counting the fleeing Sandor) guards ready to do his bidding, but which of them will obey? Who do they really obey? Joff? Tywin? Cercie? The Tyrells?

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 9th 9:34 AM
That's just it, Claid. Aside from wearing the crown, is Joff honestly viewed as a king? Or as a spoiled brat who was placed on the throne to serve other powers? The other powers feed him bones from time to time, but he seems to have won nobody's true respect and admiration.

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 9th 12:00 PM
I think that the people that play the Game of Thrones knows Joff is a puppet to his grandfather. The small folk and people that don't know any better will treat Joff as king.

I think if Loras hits Sansa on Joff's orders, I will scream Dunk's question "Are there no true knights out there!"

IMO Joff is a bully; if someone stands up to him, he will back down.

I think Loras will tell the other kingsguard that he will kill them if they beat his sister (and hopefully Sansa). The other Kingsguard will tell Joff they can't hit Sansa and that will be the end of it. Tywin won't care enough about Joff to start a war over this.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 9th 12:31 PM
I think someone said it earlier -- Margeary may indeed become off limits to the Sicko King. If he needs to vent, he'll probably come looking for Sansa. Besides being an easy target for Joff, she is also a ready reminder that Robb remains a challenger to his throne and a thorn in his side.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 9th 12:33 PM
I think Ami is right about Sandor's unwillingness to strike Sansa. If push came to shove, I think he would have refused. One thing we know about Sandor is that he hates Gregor, and hints have been dropped about Gregor being responsible for the death of his younger sister. To Sandor, beating Sansa would make him the equivalent of his hated brother, and that's a line I don't think he'd cross.

Padraig
User ID: 9823593 Sep 9th 1:21 PM
Whatever about hitting Sansa (his pride rather than any outstanding quality will prevent him from doing that IMHO) I would be very interested in seeing Loras taking any orders from Joffrey. Why should he? Loras would think Joffrey doesn't deserve to give him any orders. Who would force him?

Kay-Arne Hansen
User ID: 9209903 Sep 10th 3:12 AM
Padraig;

If Loras follows Joff's orders, it would be because he thought it best not to mess with the alliance, not because he was forced by someone.
After all, he has shown tendencies to be willing to compromise the chivalrous spirit of knighthood, when it served his own ends.

Ami
User ID: 8520773 Sep 10th 8:00 AM
I agree that Loras would follow Joff's orders to a certain point due to the alliance, however, I do believe this is where Tywin will step in. Once he realizes Joff's brutality he's not going to allow it for either girls, and then I think Sansa will be getting it behind closed doors. Then all the Lords and Ladies and Knights of KL will see Tywin as a true ruler and gentlemen, that admiration will lend him more support.

haaruk Sep 10th 8:34 AM
Joffrey did command Sandor to strike Sansa.

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Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	Aug 31st 9:33 AM This is in reply to the latest post from labor on the 'Sansa II' section. We were discussing possible influence Sansa might get at court, specifically with the Lannisters and their close allies. labor; Tommen would be a puppet king for a very long time, so any influence Sansa got there would be rather thin - only decisions that does not concern Tywin in the slightest would be managable for influencing. But if he and Sansa got chummy, Sansa might get influence with other people at court who wants to curry favor with the king. Tyrion is, IMHO, too smart to really be twined around Sansa's fingers - he might protect her from Cersei's vindictiveness, but would not let her go himself, until her hostage status was not crucial to Jaime's well-being. What good such a contact would do in the future, depends largely on whether Jaime dies in Stark captivity, and his view on Starks in general, due to this (probably not very positive). Littlefinger is much like Tyrion, although he has not the same immediate reason to use Sansa as Tyrion has. Should a marriage be arranged, I'd think Sansa could really get some impact at court (much depending on Petyr's awareness and reaction to any scheming on her part) - but her star would then rise and fall with Petyr's, IMHO. Margaery - dunno. Depends on Joffrey, largely (and hence her brother Loras, who initially might be rather pissed at anyone with Stark blood). Elsewise it is much like with Tommen, methinks - Tywin will effectively rule the realm for a long time (if he does not die, of course). Perhaps Lancel is a faint chance, too (unless he dies). True, he was not exactly sympathetic towards her after Robb finished 'Uncle Dolt' and his army by Oxcross, but OTOH she helped him (an enemy) when he was wounded, just after his cousin and lover Cersei had fended him off like a fly. I'm not sure what good would come from such an alliance - Lancel might be a Lannister, and newly made head of a powerful house in the Riverlands (the former Darry stronghold), but it seems to me that our Wineskin warrior is not exactly bright (although that might just as easily be positive as negative for Sansa). There's also the chance that Cersei will have him killed.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 5th 12:17 PM I think her influence on Petyr Baelish could be bigger if she knew - or would be willing to - strike the right cords. I hear his words ringing in my ears "You look exactly like your mother" and the like. But she would have to understand the possible power of that influence first. And then, as I said, be willing to strike these cords. Which I think she is not.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 6th 9:35 AM Well, the understanding is the trouble right now. She might get something out of her 'lessons' with Cersei, I guess... But I do not think she has many compunctions about using that influence, especially if Petyr forces her to marry him.
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 8th 3:57 PM Didn't Ser Loras give her the flowers during the Hand's Tournay? I don't have my books with me. I don't believe that the Knight of the Flowers will obey an order from King Joff to beat Sansa, or his sister.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 8th 4:15 PM Ser Loras gave Sansa a single red rose (unlike the white rose he was giving to pretty women throughout the tourney) and declared that no flower was as fair as she was. While I think what Loras will do should Joff try to test him by commanding him to beat Sansa will be an interesting measure of just what sort of a man he is, I don't know if I can honestly say I think he'll disobey it. His sister's one thing, perhaps, but Sansa is quite another (not that I think Joff will order Maergary beaten while Tywin is around -- the Tyrell alliance is too important.) If he does it, there can be more reasons than just the necessities of knightly vows. Some have speculated (and even might yet speculate, I suppose) that the Tyrells are setting up to take over the whole works. So ... keeping in the king's good graces might simply further Tyrell plans which Loras Tyrell probably would interpret as being for the best of the kingdom. If he doesn't ... well, I think he'll have shown his moral worth.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 8th 4:26 PM If Loras beats Sansa, she will get yet another hard lesson in life. Pretty boy Loras, allegedly gallant beyond words, beating a defenseless 13-year-old girl. Compare all that he supposedly represents against the rough-hewn, inarticualte Sandor, who simply refused to participate in such a thing. What's a young girl to think?
Moreta User ID: 9565813	Sep 8th 9:48 PM Actually, Sandor didn't refuse to beat Sansa. Dontos saved him from replying. GRRM did that on purpose, I think.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 9th 7:23 AM I don't remember the details myself. But if put in that position, how might Sandor have reacted? Would he have beaten Sansa? What might he have done instead? Flipped out?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 9th 8:10 AM A strange thing, that. Joff never made use of Sandor to beat Sansa. Maybe the Hound declined to follow his orders?
Ami User ID: 1195644	Sep 9th 8:41 AM I think his obediance would have taken precedence(?) in that situation, though, he probably would not have hit her very hard _or_ he didn't seem to have a problem saying things to Joff that supported others around him. I didnt' quite word that right, what I mean is you never see the other King's guard's say anything that contridicted Joff, but Sandor backed Sansa at Joff's tourney and when Joff told Myrcella to stop being childish and she said they were children and Sandor said she's got you there; even though it was lighthearted, you never see any of the other guards do or say anything like that, at least not that I recall. So Sandor might have haphazardly mocked Joff saying something like " you want me to hit a little girl?" or " save me for killing your enemies not your betrothed"... Am I way off w/this? Does this make any sense at all?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 9th 9:01 AM Ami; I think you've hit the nail on the head - it's just the kind of reaction Sandor could produce. And Joff might go with that - for a while, at least. As for the other guards - there were one, at least, that tried to balk at Joff's orders - Aerys(?) Oakheart, I think.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 9th 9:25 AM I think Joff is a little afraid of Sandor. He's Joff's protector, sworn shield to Joffrey. Without Sandor, where is the arrogance of Joff? Sure, now he has seven (or six not counting the fleeing Sandor) guards ready to do his bidding, but which of them will obey? Who do they really obey? Joff? Tywin? Cercie? The Tyrells?
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 9th 9:34 AM That's just it, Claid. Aside from wearing the crown, is Joff honestly viewed as a king? Or as a spoiled brat who was placed on the throne to serve other powers? The other powers feed him bones from time to time, but he seems to have won nobody's true respect and admiration.
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 9th 12:00 PM I think that the people that play the Game of Thrones knows Joff is a puppet to his grandfather. The small folk and people that don't know any better will treat Joff as king. I think if Loras hits Sansa on Joff's orders, I will scream Dunk's question "Are there no true knights out there!" IMO Joff is a bully; if someone stands up to him, he will back down. I think Loras will tell the other kingsguard that he will kill them if they beat his sister (and hopefully Sansa). The other Kingsguard will tell Joff they can't hit Sansa and that will be the end of it. Tywin won't care enough about Joff to start a war over this.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 9th 12:31 PM I think someone said it earlier -- Margeary may indeed become off limits to the Sicko King. If he needs to vent, he'll probably come looking for Sansa. Besides being an easy target for Joff, she is also a ready reminder that Robb remains a challenger to his throne and a thorn in his side.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 9th 12:33 PM I think Ami is right about Sandor's unwillingness to strike Sansa. If push came to shove, I think he would have refused. One thing we know about Sandor is that he hates Gregor, and hints have been dropped about Gregor being responsible for the death of his younger sister. To Sandor, beating Sansa would make him the equivalent of his hated brother, and that's a line I don't think he'd cross.
Padraig User ID: 9823593	Sep 9th 1:21 PM Whatever about hitting Sansa (his pride rather than any outstanding quality will prevent him from doing that IMHO) I would be very interested in seeing Loras taking any orders from Joffrey. Why should he? Loras would think Joffrey doesn't deserve to give him any orders. Who would force him?
Kay-Arne Hansen User ID: 9209903	Sep 10th 3:12 AM Padraig; If Loras follows Joff's orders, it would be because he thought it best not to mess with the alliance, not because he was forced by someone. After all, he has shown tendencies to be willing to compromise the chivalrous spirit of knighthood, when it served his own ends.
Ami User ID: 8520773	Sep 10th 8:00 AM I agree that Loras would follow Joff's orders to a certain point due to the alliance, however, I do believe this is where Tywin will step in. Once he realizes Joff's brutality he's not going to allow it for either girls, and then I think Sansa will be getting it behind closed doors. Then all the Lords and Ladies and Knights of KL will see Tywin as a true ruler and gentlemen, that admiration will lend him more support.
haaruk	Sep 10th 8:34 AM Joffrey did command Sandor to strike Sansa.