A mirror of the eeesite "A Song of Ice and Fire"

This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / The Underground Conspiracy

Next 20 Messages

Byzantine
User ID: 9405543 Sep 1st 1:31 AM
Who are the two mysterious figures Arya saw in the dark passages of the Castle? What were they talking about? And what are their goals?

Byzantine
User ID: 9405543 Sep 1st 2:34 AM
The Background:
While chasing cats and fleeing Lanisters, Arya stumbles into the dark passages of the castle... There she sees two oddly dressed men and hears snippets of their conversation which seems to be very important, indeed.

The first clue is to look at the details of the men...The first man, the "torchbearer", "a stout man in a leather half-cape. Even in heavy boots his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him."

The second man, "the man with the accent and forked yellow beard", "was no one Arya had ever seen before" . . . "Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two."

These men are revealed in other places of the book by their descriptions.
The second man is revealed earlier, nearly at the beggining of the book...
"Magister Illyrio"..."moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold."

Then who is the other man? That is revealed later in the book, as Eddard sits in his cell, he is visited by a stranger... "this gaoler was stouter, shorter, though he wore the same leather half cape and spiked steel cap" . . . Varys! In a Clash of Kings, Varys appears again in the same costume with scars as well, solidifying his role as the second conspirator.

But what are they talking about? Here is a transcript [my comments are in brackets]:

Varys: "... found one bastard, the rest will come soon. A day, two days, a fortnight..." [they are obviously talking about Ned's investigation of Robert Baratheon's bastards. But which bastard is he afraid will eventually be discovered? There are so many! Remember, Ned has the book of Royal lineage, which includes both Baratheon and Targaryen bastards.]
Illyrio: "And when he learns the truth, what will he do?"
V: "The gods alone know. The fools tried to kill his son, and what's worse, they made a mummer's farce of it. He's not a man to put that aside. I warn you, the wolf and lion will soon be at each other's throats wether we will it or no."
[Here we discover that Varys is not responsible for the rediculous assasination attempt with Petyr's knife. Is it possible that Petyr would set this up himself? Perhaps to frame the Lannisters? Or maybe someone wanted to frame Petyr, after all it IS Petyr's knife. Whoever it was, it was NOT our conspirators, unless they lie to each other.]
I:"Too soon, too soon. What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay."
V:"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"
I:"No less." [This would not be the first or last time we see Varys refered to as a wizard.]
V:"What would you have me do?"
I:"If one Hand can die, why not a second? You have danced this dance before, my friend."
[They are talking about the murder of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon's first Hand, and the assasination of Eddard, the second Hand. We know Pycelle prepared the tear's of Lys and Jon Arryn's squire Ser Hugh delivered it. Is it possible that Pycelle was not lying when he insisted that Varys was really the one who killed Jon Arryn?]
V:"Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other."
I:"Perhaps so, nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The Khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages."
[Why would Varys know how these savages are? Maybe I am missing something about his background?]
V:"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late. This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was." . . . [At least Varys believes that this conspiracy involves only himself in Illyrio.] . . . "Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger . . . the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing." [This shows that Varys lies to Eddard when he says that he plays Littlefinger like a puppet. Littlefinger is a mystery to Varys, or else Varys wants Illyrio to think that.] . . . "Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth." [What truth? The truth of the Lannister incest, or perhaps some other truth? Is it possible that Arya was correct when she guessed that Jon Snow was the bastard the men were speaking of?] . . . "And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well." [Perhaps that's what Littlefinger is up to? It is certainly not what Varys is up to, unless he is fooling Illyrio as well.] . . . "Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever."
I: "You are more than an juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer."
V: "What I can do, I will. I must have gold, and another fifty birds."
[The voices begin to fade out here, so from here on out, we have only parts of the conversation.]
I: "So many? . . . The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . ."
[We all know that birds cannot "know their letters"... only people can do that. How fitting that Illyrio owns so many slaves. Perhaps Vary's birds are young people... children.]
V: "No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . ."
I: ". . . if they kept their tongues . . ."
V: ". . . the risk . . ."
[Here it seems to me that Illyrio and Varys are arguing the finer points of the use of children as spys and messengers... but it could just as easily be about any other topic, I suppose. Dragons maybe?]

Anyway, that conversation still seems to be of utmost importance in the second novel as well, since the plans of this conspiracy do not seem to have come to fruition to me. Perhaps some of you might be able to add some more theories to this?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 1st 9:40 AM
A comment on your comments, Byzantine;

1) I doubt Varys is speaking of one particular bastard, anyone will do. He is IMHO talking about the general evidence that exists, which will eventually make a light bulb appear over Ned's head.

2) See Ran's Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory, starring Littlefinger. (if it's still around here...)It seems like Varys (at this point at least) does not suspect other than the Lannisters being behind it.

3) Not that I really believe Varys to be a wizard, but he isn't denying the claim as vehemently as you'd expect from a man who has gone through what he supposedly has. But then, this is Varys, and probably weighs every word he utters carefully.

4) We have speculated back and forth on this one without reaching any substanital conclusions - I think that Varys was involved, but I'm unsure by how much.

5) Varys is from the Free Cities, more accurately from Lys. Since the Horse Lords visit Pentos from time to time, it isn't implausible that they also visit Lys from time to time, where Varys could have gotten insight.
But I think it is more probable that Illyrio is referring to the regular prejudices towards the Dothraki savages in the Free Cities (and in Westeros).

6) I'm not sure what you're referring to here...I do not think Varys is talking about himself and Illyrio here; but (possibly) Robert vs. Viserys or Starks vs. Lannisters.

7) I cannot recall that Varys claims Petyr to be his 'puppet', only that he feeds him some information on a (ir?)regular basis, in order to make Petyr believe Varys is his creature. References?

8) Obviously the Lannister incest. If Jon Snow had something to do with what Varys was talking about, he should know that Ned already knows everything about Jon.

9) See #2; Ran's GUCT. :o)

10) Yes, most likely the 'birds' are children.

11) Well, recent speculation links it to the former.

---

Oenone
User ID: 0645514 Sep 2nd 6:18 AM
Byzantine: To me it sounds like they were planning the war as a softening up period in preparation for the coming of Dany and her army. Could their be some link between the exiled knight with Dany (sorry can't remember his name) and Varys or Illyrio?

Maybe I'm way out in left field...I dunno.

Padraig
User ID: 0714654 Sep 2nd 1:18 PM
Far from left field Oenone. I persume you mean Ser Jorah Mormont(sp?) and IIRC he was supplying information to Varys in aGoT. Mormont was hoping for an amnesty. Although I can't rememeber any reference to communication between the two in aCoK.

Byzantine Sep 2nd 2:37 PM
Well, it seems obvious to me, from the text, that Illyrio and Varys are opposed to any war between the Lannisters and Starks. At least, they are opposed to a war which would involve other greater families.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 2nd 2:49 PM
I think it's clear that they were opposed to a war _then_, when Dany was still unable to take advantage of the confusion and land in the Seven Kingdoms with an army at her back.

Varys seems to have done his best in engineering a volatile situation which he could trigger into an explosion at a moment chosen by him to maximize Dany's chances. Divide the Seven Kingdoms and let her role in and conqueor.

However, someone triggered it too soon by sending the footpad to kill Bran, which led to increasing Lannister-Stark hostility by way of firmly setting the Starks on the Lannister witch hunt culminating with the abduction of Tyrion by Lady Stark.

Whether the assassination attempt on Bran had the specific aim of causing war is still a matter of discussion though.

Oenone
User ID: 0645514 Sep 3rd 3:43 AM
Ran: I think the assassination attempt was purely coincidental. I do think it was a catalyst for the war though.

Byzantine: I don't think they are opposed to a war between the major family so much as timing the war to a more opportune moment.

Also I've wondered about Varys' comment "this is no longer a game for two players" Is he thinking of bringing an extra person into the game? To me a game is something that is played by two people competing against each other maybe he's not even talking about Illyrio and himself.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 9:54 AM
I do believe that Varys will support Dany. There are many mysteries to Varys we do not know yet. He is not from Westeros, and I think he IS LOYAL. The question is: To whom?
The meeting Arya witnessed gives hints, but no answers.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 5th 6:52 PM
I believe that Varys' comment that Oenone mentions above speaks about the accelerated clash between Lion and Wolf and that there is another in the game, one that they did not expect.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 6th 3:13 AM
This mirrors Tyrion's own thoughts in the sky-cell of the Eyrie as he considered the assassination and how botched it was.

If that interpretation of Varys' words are correct, that gives a couple of characters believing that someone else is screwing around. Obviously, this is Littlefinger, at the very least for his pointing the finger at Tyrion when Cat came calling. And at most, it's for engineering the attempt in the first place.

I really hope SoS sheds at least a little light on the mystery. I can live with it not being exactly clear even to the fourth or fifth book, as Littlefinger continues making his climb to power, but there should be at least a drop of useful information in the third.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 7th 8:32 AM
I'm not conviced that Littlefinger is behind the attempt on Bran, but I do believe he is the new player in Varys' and Illyrio's plans. Why? I don't know.

Oenone
User ID: 0645514 Sep 8th 5:43 AM
If Varys is working towards having a Targarean(sp?), i.e. Dany as the rightful ruler then how is he communicating with her across the water?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 8th 6:14 AM
The slow way - by ship.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 8th 6:33 AM
Varys isn't communicating with her directly. He's communicating with Illyrio in Pentos. And given the Narrow Sea ... it's not all that slow, I guess. A week or two of sailing to get a message from one point to another.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 13th 10:57 AM
The whole Dothraki thing really bothers me.

The apparent plan is for civil war in Westeros with Danys arriving at the head of a horde of Dothraki to reclaim her throne. Is this really a good idea?

First, Danys would alienate any possible Westerosi support by arriving at the head of a conquering horde of barbarians. Rather than being an exiled queen returning to claim her throne and restore her family, she would be viewed as the queen of an alien, barabarian people. Could she really hope to seize _and_ retain control of Westeros when her power base is devoid of Westerosi?

Second, I cannot imagine Westeros simply falling down in the face of a Dothraki invasion. The inevitable result would be a truly bloody war between the Dothraki and Westeros, with some infighting among the Westerosi. As powerful as they are, I think the Dothraki would have a difficult time contending with the powerful fortresses in Westeros. And how would they fare against places like the Vale and the North, which are not easilly accessible via a land invasion?

Third, the Dothraki are true barbarians -- the whole concept of a city is alien to their nature. I think that they'd be particularly ill-suited to control Westeros.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 13th 11:01 AM
Ooops! clicked before I was done. Okay, I know that the Dothraki are intended to be the euqivalent of the Mongols who managed to overcome many of these same disadvantages. But its not a perfect analogy. This is supposed to be a plan to restore the Targaeryens, not to make Westeros the new playland for the Dothraki.

Donald S. Crankshaw
User ID: 9802413 Sep 13th 11:10 AM
Who said this was a plan to restore the Targaryens? I guess I just have a much more negative view of Varys. Whereas everyone else sees him as working for some noble purpose like restoring the Targaryens (and I really don't see what's so noble about that, especially if Viserys was supposed to be the king), I see him as working for some darker, unknown purpose, and using the Targaryens in the same way as he's using the Starks and the Lannisters. So I'll repeat myself one more time: Varys is evil. I think there are enough clues to this that it would take a lot to convince me otherwise. Exactly how evil will be revealed at a later date.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 13th 11:13 AM
I'll buy that Varys' is evil, but that still doesn't explain what he's trying to do in Westeros. How do both he and Illyrio gain if the Dothraki conquer Westeros?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 13th 11:48 AM
Jeff;

First, the original plan was not to put Dany on the throne, but Viserys.

I maintain that Dany was just a pawn in that game - sold to Drogo for the 'gift' of his army working for Viserys until Westeros was conquered, and then (supposedly)Drogo would leave with his bride (unless Varys and Illyrio had plans for 'renegotiating' the deal afterwards, in order to secure Viserys a Targaryen-blooded bride).
You will note that Illyrio tried (unsuccessfully) to keep Viserys from joining Drogo's travel to Vaes Dothrak.

When Viserys landed, the Dothraki horde would prevent him from being annihilated immediately. Supposedly, Varys would work on some of the nobles likely to join the Targaryen cause again, and explain that those would not be plagued by the Dothraki.

Furthermore, they may have gambled on the fact that Robert would be an ideal opponent - he'd want to meet the Dothraki on open ground, and be disadvantaged. Knowing how stubborn Robert could be, as well as his love for a straight fight, this is not at all implausible.

Only, Viserys died, and the whole plan came apart.
With Dany as the wife of Drogo, trying to invade, most or all of the misgivings Jeff has, are valid. I'm not at all sure that Varys would be comfortable with Drogo being the father of the coming heir apparent, or the fact that they'd more than likely stay in Westeros, or else take Dany back east again.

I'm not sure what they are planning right now, but I do not think Dothraki are in it.

Next 20 Messages

Byzantine User ID: 9405543	Sep 1st 1:31 AM Who are the two mysterious figures Arya saw in the dark passages of the Castle? What were they talking about? And what are their goals?
Byzantine User ID: 9405543	Sep 1st 2:34 AM The Background: While chasing cats and fleeing Lanisters, Arya stumbles into the dark passages of the castle... There she sees two oddly dressed men and hears snippets of their conversation which seems to be very important, indeed. The first clue is to look at the details of the men...The first man, the "torchbearer", "a stout man in a leather half-cape. Even in heavy boots his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him." The second man, "the man with the accent and forked yellow beard", "was no one Arya had ever seen before" . . . "Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two." These men are revealed in other places of the book by their descriptions. The second man is revealed earlier, nearly at the beggining of the book... "Magister Illyrio"..."moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold." Then who is the other man? That is revealed later in the book, as Eddard sits in his cell, he is visited by a stranger... "this gaoler was stouter, shorter, though he wore the same leather half cape and spiked steel cap" . . . Varys! In a Clash of Kings, Varys appears again in the same costume with scars as well, solidifying his role as the second conspirator. But what are they talking about? Here is a transcript [my comments are in brackets]: Varys: "... found one bastard, the rest will come soon. A day, two days, a fortnight..." [they are obviously talking about Ned's investigation of Robert Baratheon's bastards. But which bastard is he afraid will eventually be discovered? There are so many! Remember, Ned has the book of Royal lineage, which includes both Baratheon and Targaryen bastards.] Illyrio: "And when he learns the truth, what will he do?" V: "The gods alone know. The fools tried to kill his son, and what's worse, they made a mummer's farce of it. He's not a man to put that aside. I warn you, the wolf and lion will soon be at each other's throats wether we will it or no." [Here we discover that Varys is not responsible for the rediculous assasination attempt with Petyr's knife. Is it possible that Petyr would set this up himself? Perhaps to frame the Lannisters? Or maybe someone wanted to frame Petyr, after all it IS Petyr's knife. Whoever it was, it was NOT our conspirators, unless they lie to each other.] I:"Too soon, too soon. What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay." V:"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?" I:"No less." [This would not be the first or last time we see Varys refered to as a wizard.] V:"What would you have me do?" I:"If one Hand can die, why not a second? You have danced this dance before, my friend." [They are talking about the murder of Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon's first Hand, and the assasination of Eddard, the second Hand. We know Pycelle prepared the tear's of Lys and Jon Arryn's squire Ser Hugh delivered it. Is it possible that Pycelle was not lying when he insisted that Varys was really the one who killed Jon Arryn?] V:"Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other." I:"Perhaps so, nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The Khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages." [Why would Varys know how these savages are? Maybe I am missing something about his background?] V:"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late. This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was." . . . [At least Varys believes that this conspiracy involves only himself in Illyrio.] . . . "Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger . . . the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing." [This shows that Varys lies to Eddard when he says that he plays Littlefinger like a puppet. Littlefinger is a mystery to Varys, or else Varys wants Illyrio to think that.] . . . "Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth." [What truth? The truth of the Lannister incest, or perhaps some other truth? Is it possible that Arya was correct when she guessed that Jon Snow was the bastard the men were speaking of?] . . . "And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well." [Perhaps that's what Littlefinger is up to? It is certainly not what Varys is up to, unless he is fooling Illyrio as well.] . . . "Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever." I: "You are more than an juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." V: "What I can do, I will. I must have gold, and another fifty birds." [The voices begin to fade out here, so from here on out, we have only parts of the conversation.] I: "So many? . . . The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . ." [We all know that birds cannot "know their letters"... only people can do that. How fitting that Illyrio owns so many slaves. Perhaps Vary's birds are young people... children.] V: "No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . ." I: ". . . if they kept their tongues . . ." V: ". . . the risk . . ." [Here it seems to me that Illyrio and Varys are arguing the finer points of the use of children as spys and messengers... but it could just as easily be about any other topic, I suppose. Dragons maybe?] Anyway, that conversation still seems to be of utmost importance in the second novel as well, since the plans of this conspiracy do not seem to have come to fruition to me. Perhaps some of you might be able to add some more theories to this?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 1st 9:40 AM A comment on your comments, Byzantine; 1) I doubt Varys is speaking of one particular bastard, anyone will do. He is IMHO talking about the general evidence that exists, which will eventually make a light bulb appear over Ned's head. 2) See Ran's Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory, starring Littlefinger. (if it's still around here...)It seems like Varys (at this point at least) does not suspect other than the Lannisters being behind it. 3) Not that I really believe Varys to be a wizard, but he isn't denying the claim as vehemently as you'd expect from a man who has gone through what he supposedly has. But then, this is Varys, and probably weighs every word he utters carefully. 4) We have speculated back and forth on this one without reaching any substanital conclusions - I think that Varys was involved, but I'm unsure by how much. 5) Varys is from the Free Cities, more accurately from Lys. Since the Horse Lords visit Pentos from time to time, it isn't implausible that they also visit Lys from time to time, where Varys could have gotten insight. But I think it is more probable that Illyrio is referring to the regular prejudices towards the Dothraki savages in the Free Cities (and in Westeros). 6) I'm not sure what you're referring to here...I do not think Varys is talking about himself and Illyrio here; but (possibly) Robert vs. Viserys or Starks vs. Lannisters. 7) I cannot recall that Varys claims Petyr to be his 'puppet', only that he feeds him some information on a (ir?)regular basis, in order to make Petyr believe Varys is his creature. References? 8) Obviously the Lannister incest. If Jon Snow had something to do with what Varys was talking about, he should know that Ned already knows everything about Jon. 9) See #2; Ran's GUCT. :o) 10) Yes, most likely the 'birds' are children. 11) Well, recent speculation links it to the former. ---
Oenone User ID: 0645514	Sep 2nd 6:18 AM Byzantine: To me it sounds like they were planning the war as a softening up period in preparation for the coming of Dany and her army. Could their be some link between the exiled knight with Dany (sorry can't remember his name) and Varys or Illyrio? Maybe I'm way out in left field...I dunno.
Padraig User ID: 0714654	Sep 2nd 1:18 PM Far from left field Oenone. I persume you mean Ser Jorah Mormont(sp?) and IIRC he was supplying information to Varys in aGoT. Mormont was hoping for an amnesty. Although I can't rememeber any reference to communication between the two in aCoK.
Byzantine	Sep 2nd 2:37 PM Well, it seems obvious to me, from the text, that Illyrio and Varys are opposed to any war between the Lannisters and Starks. At least, they are opposed to a war which would involve other greater families.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 2nd 2:49 PM I think it's clear that they were opposed to a war _then_, when Dany was still unable to take advantage of the confusion and land in the Seven Kingdoms with an army at her back. Varys seems to have done his best in engineering a volatile situation which he could trigger into an explosion at a moment chosen by him to maximize Dany's chances. Divide the Seven Kingdoms and let her role in and conqueor. However, someone triggered it too soon by sending the footpad to kill Bran, which led to increasing Lannister-Stark hostility by way of firmly setting the Starks on the Lannister witch hunt culminating with the abduction of Tyrion by Lady Stark. Whether the assassination attempt on Bran had the specific aim of causing war is still a matter of discussion though.
Oenone User ID: 0645514	Sep 3rd 3:43 AM Ran: I think the assassination attempt was purely coincidental. I do think it was a catalyst for the war though. Byzantine: I don't think they are opposed to a war between the major family so much as timing the war to a more opportune moment. Also I've wondered about Varys' comment "this is no longer a game for two players" Is he thinking of bringing an extra person into the game? To me a game is something that is played by two people competing against each other maybe he's not even talking about Illyrio and himself.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 9:54 AM I do believe that Varys will support Dany. There are many mysteries to Varys we do not know yet. He is not from Westeros, and I think he IS LOYAL. The question is: To whom? The meeting Arya witnessed gives hints, but no answers.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 5th 6:52 PM I believe that Varys' comment that Oenone mentions above speaks about the accelerated clash between Lion and Wolf and that there is another in the game, one that they did not expect.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 6th 3:13 AM This mirrors Tyrion's own thoughts in the sky-cell of the Eyrie as he considered the assassination and how botched it was. If that interpretation of Varys' words are correct, that gives a couple of characters believing that someone else is screwing around. Obviously, this is Littlefinger, at the very least for his pointing the finger at Tyrion when Cat came calling. And at most, it's for engineering the attempt in the first place. I really hope SoS sheds at least a little light on the mystery. I can live with it not being exactly clear even to the fourth or fifth book, as Littlefinger continues making his climb to power, but there should be at least a drop of useful information in the third.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 7th 8:32 AM I'm not conviced that Littlefinger is behind the attempt on Bran, but I do believe he is the new player in Varys' and Illyrio's plans. Why? I don't know.
Oenone User ID: 0645514	Sep 8th 5:43 AM If Varys is working towards having a Targarean(sp?), i.e. Dany as the rightful ruler then how is he communicating with her across the water?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 8th 6:14 AM The slow way - by ship.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 8th 6:33 AM Varys isn't communicating with her directly. He's communicating with Illyrio in Pentos. And given the Narrow Sea ... it's not all that slow, I guess. A week or two of sailing to get a message from one point to another.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 13th 10:57 AM The whole Dothraki thing really bothers me. The apparent plan is for civil war in Westeros with Danys arriving at the head of a horde of Dothraki to reclaim her throne. Is this really a good idea? First, Danys would alienate any possible Westerosi support by arriving at the head of a conquering horde of barbarians. Rather than being an exiled queen returning to claim her throne and restore her family, she would be viewed as the queen of an alien, barabarian people. Could she really hope to seize _and_ retain control of Westeros when her power base is devoid of Westerosi? Second, I cannot imagine Westeros simply falling down in the face of a Dothraki invasion. The inevitable result would be a truly bloody war between the Dothraki and Westeros, with some infighting among the Westerosi. As powerful as they are, I think the Dothraki would have a difficult time contending with the powerful fortresses in Westeros. And how would they fare against places like the Vale and the North, which are not easilly accessible via a land invasion? Third, the Dothraki are true barbarians -- the whole concept of a city is alien to their nature. I think that they'd be particularly ill-suited to control Westeros.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 13th 11:01 AM Ooops! clicked before I was done. Okay, I know that the Dothraki are intended to be the euqivalent of the Mongols who managed to overcome many of these same disadvantages. But its not a perfect analogy. This is supposed to be a plan to restore the Targaeryens, not to make Westeros the new playland for the Dothraki.
Donald S. Crankshaw User ID: 9802413	Sep 13th 11:10 AM Who said this was a plan to restore the Targaryens? I guess I just have a much more negative view of Varys. Whereas everyone else sees him as working for some noble purpose like restoring the Targaryens (and I really don't see what's so noble about that, especially if Viserys was supposed to be the king), I see him as working for some darker, unknown purpose, and using the Targaryens in the same way as he's using the Starks and the Lannisters. So I'll repeat myself one more time: Varys is evil. I think there are enough clues to this that it would take a lot to convince me otherwise. Exactly how evil will be revealed at a later date.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 13th 11:13 AM I'll buy that Varys' is evil, but that still doesn't explain what he's trying to do in Westeros. How do both he and Illyrio gain if the Dothraki conquer Westeros?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 13th 11:48 AM Jeff; First, the original plan was not to put Dany on the throne, but Viserys. I maintain that Dany was just a pawn in that game - sold to Drogo for the 'gift' of his army working for Viserys until Westeros was conquered, and then (supposedly)Drogo would leave with his bride (unless Varys and Illyrio had plans for 'renegotiating' the deal afterwards, in order to secure Viserys a Targaryen-blooded bride). You will note that Illyrio tried (unsuccessfully) to keep Viserys from joining Drogo's travel to Vaes Dothrak. When Viserys landed, the Dothraki horde would prevent him from being annihilated immediately. Supposedly, Varys would work on some of the nobles likely to join the Targaryen cause again, and explain that those would not be plagued by the Dothraki. Furthermore, they may have gambled on the fact that Robert would be an ideal opponent - he'd want to meet the Dothraki on open ground, and be disadvantaged. Knowing how stubborn Robert could be, as well as his love for a straight fight, this is not at all implausible. Only, Viserys died, and the whole plan came apart. With Dany as the wife of Drogo, trying to invade, most or all of the misgivings Jeff has, are valid. I'm not at all sure that Varys would be comfortable with Drogo being the father of the coming heir apparent, or the fact that they'd more than likely stay in Westeros, or else take Dany back east again. I'm not sure what they are planning right now, but I do not think Dothraki are in it.