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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Arya IV

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Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 10:11 AM
The wolf-girl. Warrior or assasin, hardened and full of hate. Or just A Survivor? Just a child that does what needs to be done?

We don't know. But we love her, and we talk. Here.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 10:14 AM
The last posts:
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agarrett
User ID: 9377263 Sep 1st 11:06 PM
Just a bit more to add to my last message... I think many people here have watched Star Wars one too many times. Hate does not turn you evil. All the people Arya hates, those names she lists, have justly earned her hatred. Hating evil does not make you evil. To take an obvious example, were all the WWII soldiers who hated Hitler (or Tojo, depending on the theater) themselves evil.

I'm still not sure what people are thinking when they are going on about how all this killing is simply wrong. She's in the middle of war, and she's surrounded by enemies. A little paranoia (in the case of not revealing herself to Bolton) is a healthy reaction.

She seems to be the best female character in the book - Cat Stark was better in the first one, but she was terrible in this one. Drop the Star Wars mysticism if you want to debate her actions.

_________________________________
KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 2nd 3:05 AM
agarrett;

It has nothing to do with hate, IMHO. Hate is a feeling, indifference is a lack thereof.

She killed that Bolton guard, and thought absolutely nothing of it. Maybe it wouldn't concern you if your daughter did that (even if she had cause), but it certainly would trouble me.

And I think you're giving Arya way too much credit if you think she has seen through Bolton - she just didn't want to be left behind with the Goat. (and no, I don't fault her for that).

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 10:15 AM
Arya took Gendry and Hot Pie because she needs a pack. As all wolves do.

She realized that having Weese and Chyswick killed was wrong. Did she realize that it was morally wrong? No. She realized that she could have really _important_ people killed.

A girl is greedy.

Of course we have seen her cry, Kay. That was _before_. She changes, she hardens. I cannot judge if that is for the better or for the worse. It is just what happens.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 10:20 AM
And I have to disagree, agarett. Hating something VERY hard, even if the one you hate (or the thing you hate) is evil, can change you. Transform you. You referred to Star Wars. We all know what became of Anakin. Did he not hate evil? Well, we will see what GL will develop him.

If you hate something with all your soul, so much that your only wish is to destroy it, you have to become close to this one thing, to become similar. And your wish to destroy it may turn you into something which is VERY close to what you hate. This might happen to Arya.
It was what happened to Stannis, who hated nothing more than injustice. It is what happened to Anakin Skywalker.

(And, as a sidekick just for Ser Gary: It is what happened to Fenor, too...)

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 3rd 10:27 AM
Thanks for the side note, Min. Is there one particular thing that Arya hates (evil?), or have there become many things (people?). She has her list. Was there one thing in particular that touched off her desensitivity and aggression (the execution of her father?)? Precisely where did things start to change so dramatically for her?

haaruk Sep 3rd 10:44 AM
A powerful question. Almost perfect. An incident or a moment? Or are they the same in this case? I believe a series of experiences have made her what she has become. Beginning with the death of Lady and the loss of Nymeria. Both girls lost their wolves that day. A moment? The godswood at Harrenhahl when the Ghost remembered she's a Wolf.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 11:23 AM
She changed slowly. That very moment, she just decided to live the changes. To become what she became. To live what she is... once more.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 3rd 11:52 AM
So from that moment going forward, her life has been about loss? Accurate?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Sep 3rd 12:29 PM
I think that is one thing her life was about. But also fear and lack of control of her own situation came into it too. In the godswood at Harrenhal she decided to take control of her life and stop waiting for someone else to rectify her situation.

To stop being the Weasel and become the wolf.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 12:41 PM
Right, Ser Benjen. Loss is what the Stark children's life is about. All of them experienced it. They lost their parents, their home, their roots. Their childhood. And each of them lost something more, each of them had a special loss.
Bran lost knighthood.
Rickon lost safety.
Robb lost lightness.
Jon lost all bonds.
Sansa lost dreams - and she lost her wolf.

Most of them, in return, gained something: Bran got the Third Eye. Robb got a crown. Jon got a new family, someone to belong to (which he now lost again). And Sansa got a Hound, a new Wolf.
(I keep Rickon outa here... I _think_ he gained something, but I do not know what that may be... yet).

So back to Arya... what was her _personal_ loss, the loss just of her own?
What did she gain?

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 3rd 1:15 PM
I think four things changed Arya's how she is going to deal with life.

1) Mycah's death by the Hound. This showed that the powerful can be injust and she wasn't in Winterfell anymore.

2) Her time in Flea's Bottom. She must become dependent on herself.

3) Her week in the Cabin from Hell. Reinforced that the powerful makes their own rules. Showed how cruel the world can be. Weak or strong everyone dies. This changed her most of all I think.

4) The faceless man, Hager(sp). This reminded her that she must depend on herself. She was happy that he killed those people. But it was only temporary so once again she must be dependent on herself.

I thinking killing Weese was the best death she caused.

Excellent question Ser Gary.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 1:25 PM
Watcher, Arya herself came to the conclusion that killing Weese was a mistake...

Watcher
User ID: 7761613 Sep 3rd 1:45 PM
True Min, but with him gone she could do a lot more then if he was there i.e. roam the castle, deliver the weasel soup etc. She was able to regain confidence in herself on top what Hagen provided. It might've helped her brother more if she had Gregor killed (but maybe not Sansa since the Hound would've inherited), but killing Weese helped her the most. So to get her freedom killing Weese and having him replaced by an incomptent was a very good move. Freeing the hostages was also a clever thing but if Weese was still around she would not have been able to do it.

labor
User ID: 8785553 Sep 3rd 2:07 PM

Yes, I also think that Chyswick was a mistake, but not Weese, whatever Arya thinks. Actually, it was very foolish of her not to get rid of Weese first - then she would have had leisure to think and plan both the most profitable use of her remaining two deaths (Tywin and ?) and her own escape. It was not a stretch as Arya is still a rather small child, but it certainly was foolish.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 3rd 3:35 PM
Good shot, both of you. :-) I, too, think that killing Weese was NOT foolish. I just wanted to see your opinions, as Arya herself seemed to think that in the end.
Let's see? She thinks killing Weese was foolish, because he was _not important_. What does that mean for her? What conclusions will she come to next?

Tex
User ID: 1808544 Sep 3rd 4:31 PM
Arya started off hating the girlish things and as a result she was spiteful and tomboyish. I think
Chyswick was a test to see if H'Ghar (I think that is right) was really going to do it. Weese was a spur of the moment thing and turned out to be a smart move. I think she realized that the H'Ghar character was unable to kill Lord Tywin or the hound as they were either more powerful or well protected. It is sad that a little girl would have to see and think these things. I only wonder if she will come out stronger or crumble like Lysa seemed to?

agarrett
User ID: 9377263 Sep 3rd 6:39 PM
KAH had said...
She killed that Bolton guard, and thought absolutely nothing of it. Maybe it wouldn't concern you if your daughter did that (even if she had cause), but it certainly would trouble me.

(Sorry, not too sure how to quote earlier messages...)

Well, I disagree. She did think of it. She thought it was necessary, and proceeded to do it. She didn't grieve over it, or get weepy, or anything, but she thought it out very clearly. Clearly enough that it went smoothly.

Would it concern me if my daughter did this? Honestly, it would concern me a lot more if she was a POW in the first place. If she killed a guard in the process of escaping - and bringing other prisoners with her - I think I'd find room for some pride as well as concern. (Of course, as I have no children, this is rather hypothetical.)

Let's look at another area - Winterfell. When Theon was ruling the castle, after he pretended to kill Bran and Rickon, the people began killing his guards. Were they also travelling this 'Dark Path?' They did so with premeditation (presumably) and in cold blood - the very same things that are being held against Arya. Now, I claim that what they did was right. Do you agree? If so, why is Arya different? Because she's a girl, or because her killings were shown, while the Winterfell deaths were 'off screen?'

Oenone
User ID: 0645514 Sep 4th 0:00 AM
agarrett: It's just a violent society if you ask me! I don't think that we can judge a person purely on the number of people they have killed, we must look deeper than that. Many are looking at Arya and, seeing a young girl who has killed, automatically look for the bad in her.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 4th 5:20 AM
agarett, just quote with quotation marks, that's still the best way to do it... :-))

I think all Kay wanted to state is that it may to considerable harm to a little girl's soul if the society and circumstances around her force her to kill cold-bloodedly. That is no critizism of what Arya did. She had no choice, or so it seemed to her. She had to survive. But what will it do to her, what will she become? That is the question concerning me, and Kay, I think.

Watcher
User ID: 1704034 Sep 4th 7:03 PM
After rereading my comments on Arya I think a summary of my beliefs might clarify my views.
- I think Arya is still one of the good people.

- Her current path is worrisome but she still knows right from wrong. And will try to do the right thing i.e. not steal, unless she has great need, or kill without need.

- She still cares about people other then herself.

- She isn�t consumed by hate or fear.

- I don�t think she will become a cold-blooded killer like Sandor or most other characters in this series. I believe current events will make her less trustful of other people and independent but I don�t think she will go through life filled with hate. That is because she will have killed everyone she hates (joke:)

- This is how I see her now.
I don�t what she is going to do with the coin Jaqen H�ghar give her. I didn�t have my books with me yesterday and guessed at his name. My thoughts is she will join the wolf pack and head back North.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 10:11 AM The wolf-girl. Warrior or assasin, hardened and full of hate. Or just A Survivor? Just a child that does what needs to be done? We don't know. But we love her, and we talk. Here.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 10:14 AM The last posts: __________________________________ agarrett User ID: 9377263 Sep 1st 11:06 PM Just a bit more to add to my last message... I think many people here have watched Star Wars one too many times. Hate does not turn you evil. All the people Arya hates, those names she lists, have justly earned her hatred. Hating evil does not make you evil. To take an obvious example, were all the WWII soldiers who hated Hitler (or Tojo, depending on the theater) themselves evil. I'm still not sure what people are thinking when they are going on about how all this killing is simply wrong. She's in the middle of war, and she's surrounded by enemies. A little paranoia (in the case of not revealing herself to Bolton) is a healthy reaction. She seems to be the best female character in the book - Cat Stark was better in the first one, but she was terrible in this one. Drop the Star Wars mysticism if you want to debate her actions. _________________________________ KAH User ID: 9209903 Sep 2nd 3:05 AM agarrett; It has nothing to do with hate, IMHO. Hate is a feeling, indifference is a lack thereof. She killed that Bolton guard, and thought absolutely nothing of it. Maybe it wouldn't concern you if your daughter did that (even if she had cause), but it certainly would trouble me. And I think you're giving Arya way too much credit if you think she has seen through Bolton - she just didn't want to be left behind with the Goat. (and no, I don't fault her for that).
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 10:15 AM Arya took Gendry and Hot Pie because she needs a pack. As all wolves do. She realized that having Weese and Chyswick killed was wrong. Did she realize that it was morally wrong? No. She realized that she could have really _important_ people killed. A girl is greedy. Of course we have seen her cry, Kay. That was _before_. She changes, she hardens. I cannot judge if that is for the better or for the worse. It is just what happens.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 10:20 AM And I have to disagree, agarett. Hating something VERY hard, even if the one you hate (or the thing you hate) is evil, can change you. Transform you. You referred to Star Wars. We all know what became of Anakin. Did he not hate evil? Well, we will see what GL will develop him. If you hate something with all your soul, so much that your only wish is to destroy it, you have to become close to this one thing, to become similar. And your wish to destroy it may turn you into something which is VERY close to what you hate. This might happen to Arya. It was what happened to Stannis, who hated nothing more than injustice. It is what happened to Anakin Skywalker. (And, as a sidekick just for Ser Gary: It is what happened to Fenor, too...)
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 3rd 10:27 AM Thanks for the side note, Min. Is there one particular thing that Arya hates (evil?), or have there become many things (people?). She has her list. Was there one thing in particular that touched off her desensitivity and aggression (the execution of her father?)? Precisely where did things start to change so dramatically for her?
haaruk	Sep 3rd 10:44 AM A powerful question. Almost perfect. An incident or a moment? Or are they the same in this case? I believe a series of experiences have made her what she has become. Beginning with the death of Lady and the loss of Nymeria. Both girls lost their wolves that day. A moment? The godswood at Harrenhahl when the Ghost remembered she's a Wolf.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 11:23 AM She changed slowly. That very moment, she just decided to live the changes. To become what she became. To live what she is... once more.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 3rd 11:52 AM So from that moment going forward, her life has been about loss? Accurate?
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Sep 3rd 12:29 PM I think that is one thing her life was about. But also fear and lack of control of her own situation came into it too. In the godswood at Harrenhal she decided to take control of her life and stop waiting for someone else to rectify her situation. To stop being the Weasel and become the wolf.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 12:41 PM Right, Ser Benjen. Loss is what the Stark children's life is about. All of them experienced it. They lost their parents, their home, their roots. Their childhood. And each of them lost something more, each of them had a special loss. Bran lost knighthood. Rickon lost safety. Robb lost lightness. Jon lost all bonds. Sansa lost dreams - and she lost her wolf. Most of them, in return, gained something: Bran got the Third Eye. Robb got a crown. Jon got a new family, someone to belong to (which he now lost again). And Sansa got a Hound, a new Wolf. (I keep Rickon outa here... I _think_ he gained something, but I do not know what that may be... yet). So back to Arya... what was her _personal_ loss, the loss just of her own? What did she gain?
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 3rd 1:15 PM I think four things changed Arya's how she is going to deal with life. 1) Mycah's death by the Hound. This showed that the powerful can be injust and she wasn't in Winterfell anymore. 2) Her time in Flea's Bottom. She must become dependent on herself. 3) Her week in the Cabin from Hell. Reinforced that the powerful makes their own rules. Showed how cruel the world can be. Weak or strong everyone dies. This changed her most of all I think. 4) The faceless man, Hager(sp). This reminded her that she must depend on herself. She was happy that he killed those people. But it was only temporary so once again she must be dependent on herself. I thinking killing Weese was the best death she caused. Excellent question Ser Gary.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 1:25 PM Watcher, Arya herself came to the conclusion that killing Weese was a mistake...
Watcher User ID: 7761613	Sep 3rd 1:45 PM True Min, but with him gone she could do a lot more then if he was there i.e. roam the castle, deliver the weasel soup etc. She was able to regain confidence in herself on top what Hagen provided. It might've helped her brother more if she had Gregor killed (but maybe not Sansa since the Hound would've inherited), but killing Weese helped her the most. So to get her freedom killing Weese and having him replaced by an incomptent was a very good move. Freeing the hostages was also a clever thing but if Weese was still around she would not have been able to do it.
labor User ID: 8785553	Sep 3rd 2:07 PM Yes, I also think that Chyswick was a mistake, but not Weese, whatever Arya thinks. Actually, it was very foolish of her not to get rid of Weese first - then she would have had leisure to think and plan both the most profitable use of her remaining two deaths (Tywin and ?) and her own escape. It was not a stretch as Arya is still a rather small child, but it certainly was foolish.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 3rd 3:35 PM Good shot, both of you. :-) I, too, think that killing Weese was NOT foolish. I just wanted to see your opinions, as Arya herself seemed to think that in the end. Let's see? She thinks killing Weese was foolish, because he was _not important_. What does that mean for her? What conclusions will she come to next?
Tex User ID: 1808544	Sep 3rd 4:31 PM Arya started off hating the girlish things and as a result she was spiteful and tomboyish. I think Chyswick was a test to see if H'Ghar (I think that is right) was really going to do it. Weese was a spur of the moment thing and turned out to be a smart move. I think she realized that the H'Ghar character was unable to kill Lord Tywin or the hound as they were either more powerful or well protected. It is sad that a little girl would have to see and think these things. I only wonder if she will come out stronger or crumble like Lysa seemed to?
agarrett User ID: 9377263	Sep 3rd 6:39 PM KAH had said... She killed that Bolton guard, and thought absolutely nothing of it. Maybe it wouldn't concern you if your daughter did that (even if she had cause), but it certainly would trouble me. (Sorry, not too sure how to quote earlier messages...) Well, I disagree. She did think of it. She thought it was necessary, and proceeded to do it. She didn't grieve over it, or get weepy, or anything, but she thought it out very clearly. Clearly enough that it went smoothly. Would it concern me if my daughter did this? Honestly, it would concern me a lot more if she was a POW in the first place. If she killed a guard in the process of escaping - and bringing other prisoners with her - I think I'd find room for some pride as well as concern. (Of course, as I have no children, this is rather hypothetical.) Let's look at another area - Winterfell. When Theon was ruling the castle, after he pretended to kill Bran and Rickon, the people began killing his guards. Were they also travelling this 'Dark Path?' They did so with premeditation (presumably) and in cold blood - the very same things that are being held against Arya. Now, I claim that what they did was right. Do you agree? If so, why is Arya different? Because she's a girl, or because her killings were shown, while the Winterfell deaths were 'off screen?'
Oenone User ID: 0645514	Sep 4th 0:00 AM agarrett: It's just a violent society if you ask me! I don't think that we can judge a person purely on the number of people they have killed, we must look deeper than that. Many are looking at Arya and, seeing a young girl who has killed, automatically look for the bad in her.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 4th 5:20 AM agarett, just quote with quotation marks, that's still the best way to do it... :-)) I think all Kay wanted to state is that it may to considerable harm to a little girl's soul if the society and circumstances around her force her to kill cold-bloodedly. That is no critizism of what Arya did. She had no choice, or so it seemed to her. She had to survive. But what will it do to her, what will she become? That is the question concerning me, and Kay, I think.
Watcher User ID: 1704034	Sep 4th 7:03 PM After rereading my comments on Arya I think a summary of my beliefs might clarify my views. - I think Arya is still one of the good people. - Her current path is worrisome but she still knows right from wrong. And will try to do the right thing i.e. not steal, unless she has great need, or kill without need. - She still cares about people other then herself. - She isn�t consumed by hate or fear. - I don�t think she will become a cold-blooded killer like Sandor or most other characters in this series. I believe current events will make her less trustful of other people and independent but I don�t think she will go through life filled with hate. That is because she will have killed everyone she hates (joke:) - This is how I see her now. I don�t what she is going to do with the coin Jaqen H�ghar give her. I didn�t have my books with me yesterday and guessed at his name. My thoughts is she will join the wolf pack and head back North.