A mirror of the eeesite "A Song of Ice and Fire"

This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Bolton and Frey...

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ghost
User ID: 9704903 Apr 13th 12:36 PM
There have been many posts wich mentioned a possible betrayal of the Boltons and Freys in various threads. I started this thread becouse I have not read any clear arguments for this betrayal (and I'm sure there must be, considering everybody seems to be conviced of it). There's also something I have not read anywhere wich I think importand in this perspective:

The Freys have probably allready betrayed the Starks. In the last Arya chapter Arya finds Elmar Frey crying becouse he won't mary a princes (Arya) anymore and the Freys are dishonored.

This also means Robb can offer himself in marriage to gain an ally, but that's a whole other discussion...

Ghost

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 13th 2:15 PM
Flayed Man posted:

Well although frey's actions are bit odd or seems like a betrayal. well anyways lets say that walder did betray robb. but we forgot about his family memebers. hmm in real life if whole family agrees any plan 100% then the we can all it 'perfect family" but unfortunately that is not the case and way it works on our world (not all the time). so i believe that not all the frey factions are agreeing walder's plan or his ambition. i believe that some even have their own ambition.

if walder did betray i sense that those who has something against their sire and their half brothers, and bastard brothers, may take up arms with robb and it might divide family in to two. also not all soldiers are loyal to walder the grand master of freys, i believe that men who follows walder's sire for long, may stay loyal to him and if he is opposing faction of his sire i bet that HIS men at arms will join him instead of joining grandmaster.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Apr 13th 2:17 PM
Well Ghost, there isn't much concrete evidence as to Roose's betrayal, but I'll give you my spin on what there is.

In Arya's last chapter, we not only hear of the Frey's being "dishonored" per Elmar, we also see Roose Bolton order Helman Tallhart and the rest of his forces (The garrison that Robb left at the Twins, whom Edmure Tully later ordered to the Ruby Ford) sent to sack Duskendale_in Robb's name_. There is no evidence that Robb gave that order, and it seems foolish, sending a third of his men to Duskendale, which is very close to King's Landing and the massive Lannister/Tyrell forces there.

Seems as if Bolton is trying to get those troops out of the way, so they cannot support Robb if he tries to return North via the Twins.

We also don't know if Ramsay Bolton a.k.a. tBoB, Reek, etc., sacked Winterfell under orders from Roose or if he was told to take any oppurtunities that arrived or just did it because he could.

There are also a few hints of Stark/Bolton conflicts in the past in COK:

CoK, p530 UK HB, or p546 US HB:

"The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that has stopped a thousand
years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell. _Or so they say, but old ways die hard as I well know_"

And also there is a very tangential hint in the tale of Bael the Bard that Ygritte
tells Jon.

CoK p545 UK HB, or p561-2 US HB
"When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

Nothing concrete of course, but the first time I see hints of some conflict between Stark and Bolton in the past.

Blackstone
User ID: 9816503 Apr 13th 9:52 PM
The evidence is scant, but suggestive. Elmar Frey's whining about his princess. What irony that Arya (the princess) wishes that his princess dies!

Plus the BoB yells, when he takes Winterfell, Save me the Freys, burn the rest

Freys look to be on the winning side. Boolton can, if he bends knee to the Lannisters, become the Warden of the North and Lord Paramount, much like the Lannisters offered Littlefinger

Flayed Man
User ID: 9147853 Apr 14th 10:26 AM
Well if walder does betray Robb i don't think all the freys will diddly and joyfully join along with walder. i think about half of freys will join with robb. Also only ones who are complaining is the ones with roose, (i bet all those freys were captured after roose lost green fork). however there are other freys who were with robb and i bet they have other opinions about robb. Also speaking of unhappy freys these are highly possible and high chance they will join robb instead of their sires.

1) all or most of bastards. lets admit it bastard are neither nobles nor peaseants and they are not happy dudes, although they may thank their father for siring them, but they still are not happy and may even hold grudges

2) maybe some of true born ones such as elmar. maybe he is weakling but i don't think he wants to give up on idea of "marrying princess',

3) definetly men who are following bastards and trueborn ones who is on robb's side.

Ser benjen:

well i am not sure weather roose ordered bob to burn the winterfell ect, but i do know this BOB is a northern version and psycho version of jamie and he has his own men and his men admire or fears BOB's strength, and it is high possibility that some men who belong to his father obviously didn't have too much choice and went along the ride.

now i don't trully think that walder and bolton made plan or deal to betray robb, instead i sense that if walder is really going to betray robb, i thin BOB double dealed with walder. bob saying "save the freys" i think he knows something and obviously it seems that he and walder made some sort of pact.

Snake
User ID: 0101764 Apr 15th 4:10 PM
Again, Roose though Ramsay was dead. Plus, Ramsay never had time to correspond with his father in the time he left Winterfell to when he returned. I think Ramsay is trying to usurp Roose.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Apr 15th 11:30 PM
Roose could have been pretending not to know that Ramsay was still alive. I think Ramsay was acting on Roose's orders when he captured that woman and forced her to marry him.

labor
User ID: 0394114 Apr 16th 1:03 PM
We also shouldn't forget that Roose's maester is some kind of a sorcerer. Didn't he lose his chain for dabbling in necromancy? If necromancy works in Westeros, then Roose might have known that Ramsay is alive.

I also don't see Bolton men attacking and sacking Winterfell without orders from Roose.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 16th 2:54 PM
What _is_ necromany, again?
Talking with the dead?

labor
User ID: 0394114 Apr 16th 3:26 PM
Yep. And ostensibly the silent sisters can do it, so it could actually be possible in Westeros. Gives quite another spin to Roose-BOB interplay, if Bolton's maester is capable of it.

Flayed Man
User ID: 9147853 Apr 17th 10:26 AM
um not that i am doubting you labor, but can you please tell me what page and what book it says that bolton's maester had a ties with necromancy?

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 17th 10:29 AM
I cannot give an accurate reference, but I think it is one of the Arya chapters in aCoK, when she is at Harrenhal, and while Bolton is there.

There is at least two references of this, I think - one where Arya (IIRC) thinks how the maester lost his chain for dabbling in necromancy, the other where Gendry complains about the maester making 'black magic'.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 17th 11:37 AM
_A Clash of Kings_, U.K. hardback, p. 649:

[Gendry speaking] "I hate this lot worse. Ser Amory was fighting for his lord, but the Mummers are sellswords and turncloaks. Half of them can't even speak the Common Tongue. Septon Utt likes little boys, Qyburn does black magic, and your friend Biter _eats_ people."

_A Clash of Kings_, U.K. hardback, p. 653:

"There is a letter from your lady wife." Qyburn pulled a roll of parcment from his sleeve. Though he wore a maester's robes, there was no chain about his neck; it was whispered that he had lost it for dabbling in necromancy.

Qyburn is the maester to the Brave Companions, and appears to be serving Roose at Harrenhal in that capacity, since Maester Tothmure was beheaded for sending ravens to warn Lord Tywin after the Brave Companions turned on Amory's lot.

So, strictly speaking, he's not the Bolton maester -- I suppose he's still at the Dreadfort -- but Bolton is employing him as such. He doesn't seem bothered by the fact that he isn't a proper maester because he was thrown out of the order.

Flayed Man
User ID: 9147853 Apr 17th 8:44 PM
Hmm i guess he is a disgraced Maester.

Flayed Man
User ID: 9147853 Apr 25th 11:49 PM
well i dunno where to post this but once again this is chat with mr martin. this is various but this do include about house frey.

Flayed Man: say mr martin i heard that you are done with ASOS are you now writing DWD?
GeoRR: no, lots of other things to do
Flayed Man: oh
Flayed Man: oh yea also if you finish the ASOIF do you plan to write preludes such as when robert and ned was younger, or other legends such as "legend of boltons" "bran the cruel" ect? like dragon lance series?
GeoRR: that's years away... I don't plan that far in advance
Flayed Man: say about the freys do you say that not all of them are loyal or fond of "late lord frey" their sire? I mean does some of freys and bastards hate their sire or have other ambition and don't like to agree with their sire?
GeoRR: In every group -- in the Seven Kingdoms or real life -- you never find complete unanimity. There are always the dissidents and rebels.
Flayed Man: also hmm it may sound bit spoling and Im not asking who is going to win and who will be the victor. but in ASOS will we find out who will be the winner and who will be the ultimate loser (losing heads) of the war?
GeoRR: ultimate? no
Flayed Man: two more question (one is for your permission but this is the last question i would ask) now once again bout the freys the men at arms i know that walder is the ultimate lord who controls everythingthat is of frey, but obviously his sons and bastards are given their troops. now the troops who belong to bastards or sons, since they went things trough together. are they more loyal to sons and bastards who own them instead of walder (who might be half stranger to them. but to sons and bastards who commands them they know their commander better)?
GeoRR: There are many divided loyalties within House Frey... mnay families within that family, as it were.

Flayed Man: thank you and for your permission i would like to post this to message board. do you have anything that you wish me not to post?
GeoRR: no, be my guest
Flayed Man: thankyou and we are restless so if you can please write DWD. and good night.
GeoRR: good night

well guys and gals if walder is going to rebel i bet there will be family fued.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 26th 7:15 AM
Likely a few of those more low-rung Frey heirs would like to seize upon the chance to be named new lord of the Twins by Robb/Edmure, if Walder should turn cloak...and a few might remain loyal to Robb just because they like him.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Apr 26th 8:54 AM
I agree that some of the Freys likely will stick with Robb regardless of what old Walder does -- presuming Robb survives, of course.

Ghost
User ID: 1934244 Apr 26th 9:05 AM
I wonder if any Frey will defy tho old Lord Walder. There are many devided loyalties within house Frey, but it looks like everyone is devided in trying to gain favors with the old Lord Frey. Ofcourse, some may think their best chance of inherriting the Twins lies in following Robb, who might disown Lord Walder. Still I think this is far from certain, since (as far as I know) we havn't had a single hint of this in the books

Blackstone
User ID: 9858163 Apr 26th 10:02 AM
I read all this nonsense about the Freys and can't help thinking about how much Edmure sucks. If he had just left the loyal Northern garrison at the Twins, Lord Walder would never have rebelled.

Flayed Man
User ID: 9147853 Apr 26th 11:26 AM
BS once again we are not really clear weather if walder will really rebell (although there are strong hints) but if he does i bet half of them will rebell. why? well its hell of a big family and all of them have thought of becoming the heir. and it is very certain that there will be a family fued because the death of ser stervon and createda confusion who will be next lord of twins. also bastards out number (cat did not count all of them 40 something true borns but numerous and numerous number of bastard) the true borns and 3/4th ofthem certainly would like to get even with walder and besides each commanding sons and bastards do have their own men and their men is more loyal to their commander than walder himself (although he owns everything) so i say half (for those who are skeptical so i will make this even) of freys and their men will join edmure or robb.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ghost User ID: 9704903	Apr 13th 12:36 PM There have been many posts wich mentioned a possible betrayal of the Boltons and Freys in various threads. I started this thread becouse I have not read any clear arguments for this betrayal (and I'm sure there must be, considering everybody seems to be conviced of it). There's also something I have not read anywhere wich I think importand in this perspective: The Freys have probably allready betrayed the Starks. In the last Arya chapter Arya finds Elmar Frey crying becouse he won't mary a princes (Arya) anymore and the Freys are dishonored. This also means Robb can offer himself in marriage to gain an ally, but that's a whole other discussion... Ghost
Ran User ID: 0867924	Apr 13th 2:15 PM Flayed Man posted: Well although frey's actions are bit odd or seems like a betrayal. well anyways lets say that walder did betray robb. but we forgot about his family memebers. hmm in real life if whole family agrees any plan 100% then the we can all it 'perfect family" but unfortunately that is not the case and way it works on our world (not all the time). so i believe that not all the frey factions are agreeing walder's plan or his ambition. i believe that some even have their own ambition. if walder did betray i sense that those who has something against their sire and their half brothers, and bastard brothers, may take up arms with robb and it might divide family in to two. also not all soldiers are loyal to walder the grand master of freys, i believe that men who follows walder's sire for long, may stay loyal to him and if he is opposing faction of his sire i bet that HIS men at arms will join him instead of joining grandmaster.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Apr 13th 2:17 PM Well Ghost, there isn't much concrete evidence as to Roose's betrayal, but I'll give you my spin on what there is. In Arya's last chapter, we not only hear of the Frey's being "dishonored" per Elmar, we also see Roose Bolton order Helman Tallhart and the rest of his forces (The garrison that Robb left at the Twins, whom Edmure Tully later ordered to the Ruby Ford) sent to sack Duskendale_in Robb's name_. There is no evidence that Robb gave that order, and it seems foolish, sending a third of his men to Duskendale, which is very close to King's Landing and the massive Lannister/Tyrell forces there. Seems as if Bolton is trying to get those troops out of the way, so they cannot support Robb if he tries to return North via the Twins. We also don't know if Ramsay Bolton a.k.a. tBoB, Reek, etc., sacked Winterfell under orders from Roose or if he was told to take any oppurtunities that arrived or just did it because he could. There are also a few hints of Stark/Bolton conflicts in the past in COK: CoK, p530 UK HB, or p546 US HB: "The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that has stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell. _Or so they say, but old ways die hard as I well know_" And also there is a very tangential hint in the tale of Bael the Bard that Ygritte tells Jon. CoK p545 UK HB, or p561-2 US HB "When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." Nothing concrete of course, but the first time I see hints of some conflict between Stark and Bolton in the past.
Blackstone User ID: 9816503	Apr 13th 9:52 PM The evidence is scant, but suggestive. Elmar Frey's whining about his princess. What irony that Arya (the princess) wishes that his princess dies! Plus the BoB yells, when he takes Winterfell, Save me the Freys, burn the rest Freys look to be on the winning side. Boolton can, if he bends knee to the Lannisters, become the Warden of the North and Lord Paramount, much like the Lannisters offered Littlefinger
Flayed Man User ID: 9147853	Apr 14th 10:26 AM Well if walder does betray Robb i don't think all the freys will diddly and joyfully join along with walder. i think about half of freys will join with robb. Also only ones who are complaining is the ones with roose, (i bet all those freys were captured after roose lost green fork). however there are other freys who were with robb and i bet they have other opinions about robb. Also speaking of unhappy freys these are highly possible and high chance they will join robb instead of their sires. 1) all or most of bastards. lets admit it bastard are neither nobles nor peaseants and they are not happy dudes, although they may thank their father for siring them, but they still are not happy and may even hold grudges 2) maybe some of true born ones such as elmar. maybe he is weakling but i don't think he wants to give up on idea of "marrying princess', 3) definetly men who are following bastards and trueborn ones who is on robb's side. Ser benjen: well i am not sure weather roose ordered bob to burn the winterfell ect, but i do know this BOB is a northern version and psycho version of jamie and he has his own men and his men admire or fears BOB's strength, and it is high possibility that some men who belong to his father obviously didn't have too much choice and went along the ride. now i don't trully think that walder and bolton made plan or deal to betray robb, instead i sense that if walder is really going to betray robb, i thin BOB double dealed with walder. bob saying "save the freys" i think he knows something and obviously it seems that he and walder made some sort of pact.
Snake User ID: 0101764	Apr 15th 4:10 PM Again, Roose though Ramsay was dead. Plus, Ramsay never had time to correspond with his father in the time he left Winterfell to when he returned. I think Ramsay is trying to usurp Roose.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Apr 15th 11:30 PM Roose could have been pretending not to know that Ramsay was still alive. I think Ramsay was acting on Roose's orders when he captured that woman and forced her to marry him.
labor User ID: 0394114	Apr 16th 1:03 PM We also shouldn't forget that Roose's maester is some kind of a sorcerer. Didn't he lose his chain for dabbling in necromancy? If necromancy works in Westeros, then Roose might have known that Ramsay is alive. I also don't see Bolton men attacking and sacking Winterfell without orders from Roose.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Apr 16th 2:54 PM What _is_ necromany, again? Talking with the dead?
labor User ID: 0394114	Apr 16th 3:26 PM Yep. And ostensibly the silent sisters can do it, so it could actually be possible in Westeros. Gives quite another spin to Roose-BOB interplay, if Bolton's maester is capable of it.
Flayed Man User ID: 9147853	Apr 17th 10:26 AM um not that i am doubting you labor, but can you please tell me what page and what book it says that bolton's maester had a ties with necromancy?
KAH User ID: 0541004	Apr 17th 10:29 AM I cannot give an accurate reference, but I think it is one of the Arya chapters in aCoK, when she is at Harrenhal, and while Bolton is there. There is at least two references of this, I think - one where Arya (IIRC) thinks how the maester lost his chain for dabbling in necromancy, the other where Gendry complains about the maester making 'black magic'.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Apr 17th 11:37 AM _A Clash of Kings_, U.K. hardback, p. 649: [Gendry speaking] "I hate this lot worse. Ser Amory was fighting for his lord, but the Mummers are sellswords and turncloaks. Half of them can't even speak the Common Tongue. Septon Utt likes little boys, Qyburn does black magic, and your friend Biter _eats_ people." _A Clash of Kings_, U.K. hardback, p. 653: "There is a letter from your lady wife." Qyburn pulled a roll of parcment from his sleeve. Though he wore a maester's robes, there was no chain about his neck; it was whispered that he had lost it for dabbling in necromancy. Qyburn is the maester to the Brave Companions, and appears to be serving Roose at Harrenhal in that capacity, since Maester Tothmure was beheaded for sending ravens to warn Lord Tywin after the Brave Companions turned on Amory's lot. So, strictly speaking, he's not the Bolton maester -- I suppose he's still at the Dreadfort -- but Bolton is employing him as such. He doesn't seem bothered by the fact that he isn't a proper maester because he was thrown out of the order.
Flayed Man User ID: 9147853	Apr 17th 8:44 PM Hmm i guess he is a disgraced Maester.
Flayed Man User ID: 9147853	Apr 25th 11:49 PM well i dunno where to post this but once again this is chat with mr martin. this is various but this do include about house frey. Flayed Man: say mr martin i heard that you are done with ASOS are you now writing DWD? GeoRR: no, lots of other things to do Flayed Man: oh Flayed Man: oh yea also if you finish the ASOIF do you plan to write preludes such as when robert and ned was younger, or other legends such as "legend of boltons" "bran the cruel" ect? like dragon lance series? GeoRR: that's years away... I don't plan that far in advance Flayed Man: say about the freys do you say that not all of them are loyal or fond of "late lord frey" their sire? I mean does some of freys and bastards hate their sire or have other ambition and don't like to agree with their sire? GeoRR: In every group -- in the Seven Kingdoms or real life -- you never find complete unanimity. There are always the dissidents and rebels. Flayed Man: also hmm it may sound bit spoling and Im not asking who is going to win and who will be the victor. but in ASOS will we find out who will be the winner and who will be the ultimate loser (losing heads) of the war? GeoRR: ultimate? no Flayed Man: two more question (one is for your permission but this is the last question i would ask) now once again bout the freys the men at arms i know that walder is the ultimate lord who controls everythingthat is of frey, but obviously his sons and bastards are given their troops. now the troops who belong to bastards or sons, since they went things trough together. are they more loyal to sons and bastards who own them instead of walder (who might be half stranger to them. but to sons and bastards who commands them they know their commander better)? GeoRR: There are many divided loyalties within House Frey... mnay families within that family, as it were. Flayed Man: thank you and for your permission i would like to post this to message board. do you have anything that you wish me not to post? GeoRR: no, be my guest Flayed Man: thankyou and we are restless so if you can please write DWD. and good night. GeoRR: good night well guys and gals if walder is going to rebel i bet there will be family fued.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Apr 26th 7:15 AM Likely a few of those more low-rung Frey heirs would like to seize upon the chance to be named new lord of the Twins by Robb/Edmure, if Walder should turn cloak...and a few might remain loyal to Robb just because they like him.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Apr 26th 8:54 AM I agree that some of the Freys likely will stick with Robb regardless of what old Walder does -- presuming Robb survives, of course.
Ghost User ID: 1934244	Apr 26th 9:05 AM I wonder if any Frey will defy tho old Lord Walder. There are many devided loyalties within house Frey, but it looks like everyone is devided in trying to gain favors with the old Lord Frey. Ofcourse, some may think their best chance of inherriting the Twins lies in following Robb, who might disown Lord Walder. Still I think this is far from certain, since (as far as I know) we havn't had a single hint of this in the books
Blackstone User ID: 9858163	Apr 26th 10:02 AM I read all this nonsense about the Freys and can't help thinking about how much Edmure sucks. If he had just left the loyal Northern garrison at the Twins, Lord Walder would never have rebelled.
Flayed Man User ID: 9147853	Apr 26th 11:26 AM BS once again we are not really clear weather if walder will really rebell (although there are strong hints) but if he does i bet half of them will rebell. why? well its hell of a big family and all of them have thought of becoming the heir. and it is very certain that there will be a family fued because the death of ser stervon and createda confusion who will be next lord of twins. also bastards out number (cat did not count all of them 40 something true borns but numerous and numerous number of bastard) the true borns and 3/4th ofthem certainly would like to get even with walder and besides each commanding sons and bastards do have their own men and their men is more loyal to their commander than walder himself (although he owns everything) so i say half (for those who are skeptical so i will make this even) of freys and their men will join edmure or robb.