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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Sandor - Soul of the beast

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Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 8th 10:26 AM
The Hound. The Wolf. The darkness, the fire.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 8th 10:26 AM
Kay, we learned the same things about Cersei before we got to know her. GRRM is a champion is displaying the common opinions as someone who has no insights would see a person. He only displays the real character later - which happened fast with Cersei. It still can happen with Margaery - just as a theory. I personally _believe_ she is a good girl, but still...

Flayed, I think the Tyrells showed no obvious reaction. But still, I am sure they thought their part...

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 8th 11:30 AM
Exactly what things do we learn about Cersei before we get to know her? (following naturally from; at what point do you mean we really get to know her?)

All I can think of is that Ned expressed dislike of her, before she shows up at Winterfell, and elaborates on the negative impression. Sure, we didn't know much of her background then, but still Cersei was portrayed negatively the first we hear of her. In contrast with Margaery.

Not that it necessarily means anything. Cersei has been in the thick of it from day one, Marge has largely been passed over.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 8th 12:32 PM
What prompts a physically beautiful pair of people like Cercei and Jaime to carry on an incestuous relationship in the first place? Where did they go astray? They undoubtedly needed to take comfort in one another. Why? Dad?

Padraig
User ID: 9823593 Sep 9th 12:42 PM
Maybe they felt there was a severe lack of people that were good enough for a Lannister to bed. Jaime seems to think there is nobody in the world except his lovable sister. And Cersei seems to look strickly in-house.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 9th 2:57 PM
Padraig, I also wonder if their father was such an SOB when they were growing up that they were forced to comfort one another.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 9th 3:06 PM
I think it was a case of two young children playing Maester gone awry.

labor
User ID: 8785553 Sep 9th 3:41 PM

Ser Gary, as far as can be concluded from the books, Tywin was in KL when Cersei and Jaime were growing up at Casterly Rock. I don't think that him being a SOB could have driven them into incest. His neglect of them maybe. Various aunts and uncles, OTOH... Well, not really.

Min
User ID: 9433023 Sep 9th 4:09 PM
Jaime and Cersei love each other because they mirror each other. Their search for perfection, for completeness brought them where they are now.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 13th 10:35 AM
Their both so narcissistic that the only person they can truly love is their own twin.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 13th 10:38 AM
Which in effect means themselves, right?

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 13th 10:11 PM
Getting back to Sandor....it seems that many people posting here are rooting for his redemption. But I am wondering, does anyone else kind of think/hope that maybe redemption is not Sandor's fate? That he does not save Sansa and does not become a good guy? What a compelling tragedy that would be! The reader knows that he has the capacity to love, that he had a horrible childhood, and is at the very least beginning to empathize with him. But what if Sandor simply cannot overcome the cruelty of his past? I am sort of hoping that GRRM, as a self-professed fan of characters in shades of grey, will not allow Sansa and Sandor the fairy-tale ending.

And regarding Cersei....am I the only one who empathizes with her? I agree, she is not a typical sympathetic character, but I think I understand her a bit. As a child, if she craved physical affection, I doubt she was going to get it from Tywin, whether he was around or not. And I doubt Tywin would allow his daughter to flirt with the stableboy or have a choice in who she married. And if she did engage in flirtation or more and was caught by Tywin, no doubt she would have been made as sorry as Tyrion over Tysha. To Tywin, Cersei was useful only for her ability to marry advantageously and to breed. In some ways, Jaime was probably her only choice. He HAD to keep their true relationship a secret also, and Tywin would never suspect his favorite, fair-haired boy of wrongdoing.

And Robert as a husband? Can you imagine how bad that was? I imagine that there was probably a moment, a crossroads, when Cersei could have become something completely different and perhaps learned to love someone other than her brother. And then Robert got drunk and moaned Lyanna's name on her wedding night, and her path was chosen. How could her Lannister pride possibly bear that?

In a way, I feel sorry for Cersei. She did say that she should have been born a man, and I agree. In the ACOK world and especially as a Lannister, women do what they are told and have little power for themselves. The only power she is allowed is through her children, her beauty, and through sex, so she works with what she has. Someone like Cersei, or Arya, or even Lyanna, who has lion/wolf blood in them, is simply destined to be less than satisfied with their lot in life. I have no doubt that the happiest woman encountered in this world so far is Asha, who has the power of a man and is respected as if she were a man by both her father and by her people.

Sorry to be so long winded about Cersei in the Sandor thread, but I am currently engrossed in re-reading ACOK....and well, I just had to get this stuff off of my chest! Please feel free to tell me how completely insane I am. =0D

agarrett
User ID: 9377263 Sep 14th 0:36 AM
Well, OK. You're completely insane...

Seriously, I'm not inclined to cut Cersei much slack at the moment. For one thing, despite the disadvantages women labor under in the kingdoms, we've still been shown quite a few examples of competent women who have not fallen into the same patterns as Cersei.

In your examples of women with lion or wolf blood, you neglect Catelyn - I suspect because she goes so strongly against your theory. She does follow orders, as she makes clear in Kings, but she has also retained the ability to be decisive, as she showed in Thrones. She was, recall, able to outwit Tyrion Lannister.

I dislike Cersei's character because she has, so far, fallen into the stereotype of an evil female character. GRRM is capable of doing a lot better. She's had two 'justification' scenes, the bit about Robert calling Lyanna's name, and the 'I should have been born a man' bit. Neither was really convincing. In the first case, she'd already been sleeping with her brother for ages, by her own admission. In the second, she has killed off two Hands and a King, outwitted the entire kingdom in the matter of Joff's birth, and is currently reigning as regent. Then she goes and bitches that she has no power!? I didn't buy it, it didn't sound at all like a real person speaking.

But then, I can always hope for more in the future, eh?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 14th 8:40 AM
Not to mention her rather cold-blooded efforts to murder innocent children who stand between her and power. If there ever came a time when the parentage of Robert's bastards mattered, it could only come after the truth was known about the parentage of her own children. And at that point, the fact that Robert may have sired a few bastards would have been the least of Cersei's problems.

She's another self-pitying bitch -- a female version of Theon. She ignores how her birth and station in life are superior to that of 99% of the people of Westeros, and instead rages about how its so unfair that _she_ can't be King (that's her real complaint). Sorry, but I don't find that attitude to be worthy of any sympathy. The only thing it is worthy of is a long rope, or maybe just a slightly dull executioner's blade.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 14th 9:38 AM
Bloodthirsty today, aren't we?

Not that I necessarily disagree - you've saved the last cut for me.
One should not forget that Cersei (if rumors are to be believed) had two babies killed, and their mother sold for a slave just on _pure spite_! Or to preserve Lannister pride, which amounts to the same, more or less.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Sep 14th 12:39 PM

Well, I don't have much sympathy for Cersei. She held more power in Westeros for the fifteen years than her golden brother, whom she continues to envy is ever likely to! And if Cersei were a bit more intelligent, even Robert's lifetime, she could have wielded even more power and more openly. Maybe her main gripe is that as a woman she was unable to come to it by more "glorious" means?

But, in all fairness, Robert's bastards, especially those well-known to be so, _were_ a danger to her and her children. People could notice that all dozen of them have Robert's looks and wonder why none of his true-born children does. This is exactly how light went on for Ned, for instance. Spite wasn't Cersei's main reason for the killings.
Even one trueborn kid of Robert's would have solved the problem permanently and bloodlessly, but being Cersei, she preferred a bloodbath.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 14th 12:54 PM
I don't know about that.

Seemed like the slavery affair happened some time ago - it suggested to me that this was not part of a plan to eradicate all of Robert's bastards.

If it was, how come she wasn't more efficient in offing all the others? There were at least _eight_, according to Varys. But we never hear about her trying to kill any others, not before Ned is cleared out of the picture, and the immediate danger consequently had died down.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 14th 1:14 PM
Boy is it fun to have the opinion no one supports! =0D

Agarrett - Catelyn was lucky in getting Ned for her husband, and had a loving father and a relatively non-dysfunctional family. In that way, Catelyn's situation cannot truly be compared to Cersei's. Also, I guess what I mean by "wolf/lion blood" is a streak of wildness or forcefulness of will that is not considered acceptable in women. I don't really think that as a Tully, Catelyn has this in her. But, interestingly enough, her reaction to Jon Snow is similar to Cersei's reaction to Robert's bastards, just at a different level. Catelyn, the example of a good, decisive, rational woman, WAS capable of cruelty to Jon Snow. I think she has one moment of remorse that I can recall, but otherwise, she never pretty much thinks of him.

Cersei IS ruthless, I don't deny that. I'm not trying to say that she is deserving of redemption or even that I like her. But I do think I understand her motivation a bit, and that makes her interesting to me and makes me hesitate in simply labeling her an "evil" woman. I WANT her to be a complex and human antagonist; I don't want her to be a cariacature. So it IS possible that I am reaching a bit on this one because GRRM gives me so little to work with. I understand what you are saying, Agarrett, and perhaps GRRM needs to spend a little more thought on Cersei. His brief attempts to make her human and her motivations real were enough for me, but it sounds like they may not have been enough for others.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 14th 2:11 PM
If it makes any difference, I don't view her as a caricature at all. I happen to believe that there are real people just as nasty, hateful, and manipulative as Cersei. Mr. Martin has given her a believable motivation -- a desire for power -- along with an equally believable love for her children. The spurning by Robert adds another element of depth to her character. But just because I think that I understand her actions doesn't make them any less reprehensible or deserving of punishment.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Sep 14th 2:17 PM

KAH, IMHO Cersei was trying to kill any bastards of Robert's she knew about and could easily get at. IIRC there was some insinuating phrase of Littlefinger's that all Robert's bastards, not only those twins at Casterly Rock, generally tend to be ill-omened. It is possible that she killed some others, as well. Also, Cersei didn't know about Barra until Ned blabbed it out in her presence, so she hardly could have gone after her earlier than she did.

And when Cersei learned that the cat was out of the sack - i.e. that Ned found out the truth, that it was possible to find it without catching her in flagranti, disposing of the bastards became even more of priority (from her POV).

BTW, Cersei could do with a little more humanization, IMHO. I liked her much more in AGOT, where her essentially petty and cruel personality wasn't exposed so unequivoqually. She looked much more clever and competent, too...sigh. Tywin and Jaime could also use some humanization, and I hope that it happens in ASOS.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 8th 10:26 AM The Hound. The Wolf. The darkness, the fire.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 8th 10:26 AM Kay, we learned the same things about Cersei before we got to know her. GRRM is a champion is displaying the common opinions as someone who has no insights would see a person. He only displays the real character later - which happened fast with Cersei. It still can happen with Margaery - just as a theory. I personally _believe_ she is a good girl, but still... Flayed, I think the Tyrells showed no obvious reaction. But still, I am sure they thought their part...
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 8th 11:30 AM Exactly what things do we learn about Cersei before we get to know her? (following naturally from; at what point do you mean we really get to know her?) All I can think of is that Ned expressed dislike of her, before she shows up at Winterfell, and elaborates on the negative impression. Sure, we didn't know much of her background then, but still Cersei was portrayed negatively the first we hear of her. In contrast with Margaery. Not that it necessarily means anything. Cersei has been in the thick of it from day one, Marge has largely been passed over.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 8th 12:32 PM What prompts a physically beautiful pair of people like Cercei and Jaime to carry on an incestuous relationship in the first place? Where did they go astray? They undoubtedly needed to take comfort in one another. Why? Dad?
Padraig User ID: 9823593	Sep 9th 12:42 PM Maybe they felt there was a severe lack of people that were good enough for a Lannister to bed. Jaime seems to think there is nobody in the world except his lovable sister. And Cersei seems to look strickly in-house.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 9th 2:57 PM Padraig, I also wonder if their father was such an SOB when they were growing up that they were forced to comfort one another.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 9th 3:06 PM I think it was a case of two young children playing Maester gone awry.
labor User ID: 8785553	Sep 9th 3:41 PM Ser Gary, as far as can be concluded from the books, Tywin was in KL when Cersei and Jaime were growing up at Casterly Rock. I don't think that him being a SOB could have driven them into incest. His neglect of them maybe. Various aunts and uncles, OTOH... Well, not really.
Min User ID: 9433023	Sep 9th 4:09 PM Jaime and Cersei love each other because they mirror each other. Their search for perfection, for completeness brought them where they are now.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 13th 10:35 AM Their both so narcissistic that the only person they can truly love is their own twin.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 13th 10:38 AM Which in effect means themselves, right?
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 13th 10:11 PM Getting back to Sandor....it seems that many people posting here are rooting for his redemption. But I am wondering, does anyone else kind of think/hope that maybe redemption is not Sandor's fate? That he does not save Sansa and does not become a good guy? What a compelling tragedy that would be! The reader knows that he has the capacity to love, that he had a horrible childhood, and is at the very least beginning to empathize with him. But what if Sandor simply cannot overcome the cruelty of his past? I am sort of hoping that GRRM, as a self-professed fan of characters in shades of grey, will not allow Sansa and Sandor the fairy-tale ending. And regarding Cersei....am I the only one who empathizes with her? I agree, she is not a typical sympathetic character, but I think I understand her a bit. As a child, if she craved physical affection, I doubt she was going to get it from Tywin, whether he was around or not. And I doubt Tywin would allow his daughter to flirt with the stableboy or have a choice in who she married. And if she did engage in flirtation or more and was caught by Tywin, no doubt she would have been made as sorry as Tyrion over Tysha. To Tywin, Cersei was useful only for her ability to marry advantageously and to breed. In some ways, Jaime was probably her only choice. He HAD to keep their true relationship a secret also, and Tywin would never suspect his favorite, fair-haired boy of wrongdoing. And Robert as a husband? Can you imagine how bad that was? I imagine that there was probably a moment, a crossroads, when Cersei could have become something completely different and perhaps learned to love someone other than her brother. And then Robert got drunk and moaned Lyanna's name on her wedding night, and her path was chosen. How could her Lannister pride possibly bear that? In a way, I feel sorry for Cersei. She did say that she should have been born a man, and I agree. In the ACOK world and especially as a Lannister, women do what they are told and have little power for themselves. The only power she is allowed is through her children, her beauty, and through sex, so she works with what she has. Someone like Cersei, or Arya, or even Lyanna, who has lion/wolf blood in them, is simply destined to be less than satisfied with their lot in life. I have no doubt that the happiest woman encountered in this world so far is Asha, who has the power of a man and is respected as if she were a man by both her father and by her people. Sorry to be so long winded about Cersei in the Sandor thread, but I am currently engrossed in re-reading ACOK....and well, I just had to get this stuff off of my chest! Please feel free to tell me how completely insane I am. =0D
agarrett User ID: 9377263	Sep 14th 0:36 AM Well, OK. You're completely insane... Seriously, I'm not inclined to cut Cersei much slack at the moment. For one thing, despite the disadvantages women labor under in the kingdoms, we've still been shown quite a few examples of competent women who have not fallen into the same patterns as Cersei. In your examples of women with lion or wolf blood, you neglect Catelyn - I suspect because she goes so strongly against your theory. She does follow orders, as she makes clear in Kings, but she has also retained the ability to be decisive, as she showed in Thrones. She was, recall, able to outwit Tyrion Lannister. I dislike Cersei's character because she has, so far, fallen into the stereotype of an evil female character. GRRM is capable of doing a lot better. She's had two 'justification' scenes, the bit about Robert calling Lyanna's name, and the 'I should have been born a man' bit. Neither was really convincing. In the first case, she'd already been sleeping with her brother for ages, by her own admission. In the second, she has killed off two Hands and a King, outwitted the entire kingdom in the matter of Joff's birth, and is currently reigning as regent. Then she goes and bitches that she has no power!? I didn't buy it, it didn't sound at all like a real person speaking. But then, I can always hope for more in the future, eh?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 14th 8:40 AM Not to mention her rather cold-blooded efforts to murder innocent children who stand between her and power. If there ever came a time when the parentage of Robert's bastards mattered, it could only come after the truth was known about the parentage of her own children. And at that point, the fact that Robert may have sired a few bastards would have been the least of Cersei's problems. She's another self-pitying bitch -- a female version of Theon. She ignores how her birth and station in life are superior to that of 99% of the people of Westeros, and instead rages about how its so unfair that _she_ can't be King (that's her real complaint). Sorry, but I don't find that attitude to be worthy of any sympathy. The only thing it is worthy of is a long rope, or maybe just a slightly dull executioner's blade.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 14th 9:38 AM Bloodthirsty today, aren't we? Not that I necessarily disagree - you've saved the last cut for me. One should not forget that Cersei (if rumors are to be believed) had two babies killed, and their mother sold for a slave just on _pure spite_! Or to preserve Lannister pride, which amounts to the same, more or less.
labor User ID: 8479113	Sep 14th 12:39 PM Well, I don't have much sympathy for Cersei. She held more power in Westeros for the fifteen years than her golden brother, whom she continues to envy is ever likely to! And if Cersei were a bit more intelligent, even Robert's lifetime, she could have wielded even more power and more openly. Maybe her main gripe is that as a woman she was unable to come to it by more "glorious" means? But, in all fairness, Robert's bastards, especially those well-known to be so, _were_ a danger to her and her children. People could notice that all dozen of them have Robert's looks and wonder why none of his true-born children does. This is exactly how light went on for Ned, for instance. Spite wasn't Cersei's main reason for the killings. Even one trueborn kid of Robert's would have solved the problem permanently and bloodlessly, but being Cersei, she preferred a bloodbath.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 14th 12:54 PM I don't know about that. Seemed like the slavery affair happened some time ago - it suggested to me that this was not part of a plan to eradicate all of Robert's bastards. If it was, how come she wasn't more efficient in offing all the others? There were at least _eight_, according to Varys. But we never hear about her trying to kill any others, not before Ned is cleared out of the picture, and the immediate danger consequently had died down.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 14th 1:14 PM Boy is it fun to have the opinion no one supports! =0D Agarrett - Catelyn was lucky in getting Ned for her husband, and had a loving father and a relatively non-dysfunctional family. In that way, Catelyn's situation cannot truly be compared to Cersei's. Also, I guess what I mean by "wolf/lion blood" is a streak of wildness or forcefulness of will that is not considered acceptable in women. I don't really think that as a Tully, Catelyn has this in her. But, interestingly enough, her reaction to Jon Snow is similar to Cersei's reaction to Robert's bastards, just at a different level. Catelyn, the example of a good, decisive, rational woman, WAS capable of cruelty to Jon Snow. I think she has one moment of remorse that I can recall, but otherwise, she never pretty much thinks of him. Cersei IS ruthless, I don't deny that. I'm not trying to say that she is deserving of redemption or even that I like her. But I do think I understand her motivation a bit, and that makes her interesting to me and makes me hesitate in simply labeling her an "evil" woman. I WANT her to be a complex and human antagonist; I don't want her to be a cariacature. So it IS possible that I am reaching a bit on this one because GRRM gives me so little to work with. I understand what you are saying, Agarrett, and perhaps GRRM needs to spend a little more thought on Cersei. His brief attempts to make her human and her motivations real were enough for me, but it sounds like they may not have been enough for others.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 14th 2:11 PM If it makes any difference, I don't view her as a caricature at all. I happen to believe that there are real people just as nasty, hateful, and manipulative as Cersei. Mr. Martin has given her a believable motivation -- a desire for power -- along with an equally believable love for her children. The spurning by Robert adds another element of depth to her character. But just because I think that I understand her actions doesn't make them any less reprehensible or deserving of punishment.
labor User ID: 8479113	Sep 14th 2:17 PM KAH, IMHO Cersei was trying to kill any bastards of Robert's she knew about and could easily get at. IIRC there was some insinuating phrase of Littlefinger's that all Robert's bastards, not only those twins at Casterly Rock, generally tend to be ill-omened. It is possible that she killed some others, as well. Also, Cersei didn't know about Barra until Ned blabbed it out in her presence, so she hardly could have gone after her earlier than she did. And when Cersei learned that the cat was out of the sack - i.e. that Ned found out the truth, that it was possible to find it without catching her in flagranti, disposing of the bastards became even more of priority (from her POV). BTW, Cersei could do with a little more humanization, IMHO. I liked her much more in AGOT, where her essentially petty and cruel personality wasn't exposed so unequivoqually. She looked much more clever and competent, too...sigh. Tywin and Jaime could also use some humanization, and I hope that it happens in ASOS.