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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Beauty and the Beast II

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Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 14th 3:12 PM
We seem to have run out of space on the first Beauty and the Beast topic -- through no fault of mine, I might add!!! All of my posts were short and meaningful :) Well, some of them were anyway.

When last we gathered, the discussion focused on why Sandor might have been drawn to Sansa in the first place. Some felt she reminded him of his dead sister. Others felt he was simply drawn to her beauty. The latest offering was that she reminded Sandor of the way he used to be: An idealistic youngster robbed of his/her dreams by a brute. He was therefore determined not to let such a thing happen again -- and so he positioned himself as her savior.

An interesting idea -- or so I thought. But leave it to the people who visit this board. They mercilessly attacked this wonderful theory. What do you think???

Ami
User ID: 9335603 Sep 15th 10:34 AM
Flayed Man, you are all over the place... ;) You think a million miles a minute don't you?

I think Telisiane is right on about where there relationship is now. (And beautifully put, I might add) It's not that Sandor wanted to be saved by knights and learn songs, FM, but that he was idealistic and had dreamed of knighthood, saving damsels in distress, slaying bad guys. It's the dreaming that they have/had in common.
BTW, Sandor was six or seven when he got burned.
I must disagree w/you on the reasons behind the possible Gregor-killed-his-sister theory. Even if women are older I don't believe they can be heirs, (Asha's case is different...). I don't think anyone threatened Gregor's inheiratance(?) but it's possible he killed his father to speed that up, so you might have something there.

Flayed Man
User ID: 8102723 Sep 15th 12:35 PM
Uh AMi ami ami... about inhereitance, if one is too cruel and barbaric (I am sure his father knew the truth about sandor but never spoke) and too over zelous about fighting, even the mysoginic lord can change mind about inhereitance (it was true in medival times) Sandor... well he looked like monster and seemed to be ignored. so there might be a chance of gregor's father might have change mind.. so gregor fearing that and fearing that his people will side with his sister or sandor for that matter killed his father and sister. Also if there was no affaction between sandor and his sister, then why did he leave gregor as soon as she was dead? (besides reason fearing for his life)

well more of knight hood and ideal is more same like bran instead of sansa (except of innocence) but I do agree with Tel that Sandor does feel sympathy for sansa who lost her innocence like he did. but with that also feels affection and resembles like his sister.

Also both of them have something in common. both of them lost their father and they are basically alone. so sandor sensing this treats her "nice"...

But here is the mystery. I hope any one can answere this. Where is Sandor after sansa sang??? cause it just made me wonder where the heck he gone off to? do you think he will come back???

Flayed Man
User ID: 8102723 Sep 15th 12:36 PM
Also no matter what I am going to stick with sister/brother relation ship theory

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 15th 12:37 PM
No clue as to Sandor's whereabouts.

A wild guess is that he drinks himself unconcious every night in some wine sink not far from KL. The guy seemed to have a drinking problem.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 15th 3:03 PM
Sandor knew he had to leave KL because, in his mind, he had acted cowardly in the face of the enemy and he had been humiliated by Tyrion in front of the other men. As Haaruk has often pointed out, Sandor is not a deep thinker. He had to get away to sort things out in his own way. Complicating matters further was Sansa and her song being thrown into the equation. He should have everything figured out in about 14 years :)

Ami
User ID: 1314254 Sep 16th 4:06 PM
Good points, FM, but I'm still leaning against the inhereitance theory. Time will tell...

Have you read the other Sandor threads? As far as where is he after CoK some think Sandor, like a dog, won't stray far from his (previous) masters... Some think he maybe going after Gregor... I personally don't have an opinion here because I agree that Sandor is not a deep thinker and primarily reacts to his environment so I find it hard to predict what he might do. Although, KAH probably has the right of it... you bust me up, KAH!

Flayed Man
User ID: 8102723 Sep 16th 6:03 PM
hmm but would sandor stand and watch joff if he is about to !!@@$ sansa??? I don't think so. by his heart he will react to that and mayeven castrate lannister punk (Some one said this and give cradit to her). but Sansa bore a bastard for Lion I don't think so..

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 17th 8:42 AM
Flayed Man;

Are you sure that Sandor has considered Joffrey in that light? Joff has grown up to be a punk, certainly, but I don't think he has seen much of Joff the Sex-crazed Teenager.
Except from that last beating event, where Joff had Sansa's dress half torn off, but I'm not sure if the significance registered with Sandor.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 17th 9:36 AM
Yeah, Sandor may have been thinking that Joff wanted Sansa to take a bath.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 17th 1:07 PM
Or, alternatively, he was so appalled with the beating and the order from Joff to him, that he didn't consider that Joff had motives beyond being mean, when having her dress torn off.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 17th 1:37 PM
Does anyone think that Sandor could desert KL and Sansa in his shame and accidentally meet up with Arya? I'd like to see that meeting! I think it would be lovely if Arya (with help from Sandor) ends up being the "true knight" who saves Sansa, although at this point, Arya does not seem to be headed down the "true knight" path. I know it's unlikely since Sandor is on the list of people that Arya chants to herself each night.

Flayed Man
User ID: 8102723 Sep 17th 2:21 PM
My dear Tel

Assassin Arya is more like it

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 17th 3:40 PM
An interesting twist, Telisiane. I am undoubtedly one of the few people on this board who a.) likes Sansa and b.) doesn't like Arya. I like the growth in Sansa and have a real problem with what Arya's becoming. My hope is that Sansa will survive, because a lot of effort has gone into her evolution from a spoiled prissy brat to a potentially strong female leader. I did say "potentially", didn't I. I hope it continues.

Jaerysa
User ID: 0617234 Sep 18th 6:35 AM
This is probably the wrong place to say it, but Arya is really only trying to survive, and trying to survive can change people a lot.
However, is Sandor going to rebel against the Lannisters anyway? I don't think he will - at least not at the moment. I think he has to do a lot more realising of certain things before he starts doing anything like that. Despite his not being a deep thinker, I still think he must be aware of some things that are going on.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Sep 18th 3:06 PM
Sandor is AWOL, so he sort of has already rebelled against the Lannisters. As you say though, Jaerysa, he's not a deep thinker and may not even realize the implications of what he's done. If he suddenly presents himself at KL, will Sandor now be arrested on sight?

Jaerysa/Jaylisa
User ID: 0617234 Sep 18th 9:30 PM
I'm rereading aCoK at the moment and it's only when I read a book for the second time that I actually take note of little details etc... I'm about halfway through it again... so in answer to that question, I'd need to just get a refresh on what's happened (I've forgotten most except the main points)

Shagga
User ID: 8743893 Sep 19th 2:33 AM
Sandor and Sansa sittin in a tree K I S S I N G..

Sandor sees in Sansa a lady who does not cringe from him. Septa mordane was a good teacher.
In AGOT we see the initial conversation where he reaveals the true nature of his scars and his surly attitude. She does not shy away as most twitty 13 year old girls would do and Sandor knows that any other kind of noblewoman would not even look in his direction. He sees a strength in her that he doesn't trust but he is drawn to it. The only kind of strength Sandor knows is brute strength as so gracefully shown by his brother Gregor.

Jaylisa/Jaerysa
User ID: 0617234 Sep 19th 3:31 AM
Twitty 13 year old girls??
Sorry, just had to comment - and object to that description! It wasn't that long ago that I was 13... hey, I hope you only meant as in the books! :)

Ami
User ID: 1062774 Sep 19th 8:48 PM
Flayed Man, forgive me for being so thick! It dawned on me tonight how that inhereitance theory works. Tell me if I sum it up correctly: Lord Clegane realizes, "hey, my eldest son is a jerk", Gregor feels threatened, Dad has a "hunting accident", Sandor fears for his life...

Regarding your first post in this thread, FM, you said "If one is too cruel and barbaric (I am sure his father knew the truth about Sandor but never spoke)...". Did you mean Gregor or the truth about the burning? That's just something I didn't follow.
Also, there's no indication when his sister died, so we don't know that he left right after she died, but we do know that he left right after his father died, the same day, in fact.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 14th 3:12 PM We seem to have run out of space on the first Beauty and the Beast topic -- through no fault of mine, I might add!!! All of my posts were short and meaningful :) Well, some of them were anyway. When last we gathered, the discussion focused on why Sandor might have been drawn to Sansa in the first place. Some felt she reminded him of his dead sister. Others felt he was simply drawn to her beauty. The latest offering was that she reminded Sandor of the way he used to be: An idealistic youngster robbed of his/her dreams by a brute. He was therefore determined not to let such a thing happen again -- and so he positioned himself as her savior. An interesting idea -- or so I thought. But leave it to the people who visit this board. They mercilessly attacked this wonderful theory. What do you think???
Ami User ID: 9335603	Sep 15th 10:34 AM Flayed Man, you are all over the place... ;) You think a million miles a minute don't you? I think Telisiane is right on about where there relationship is now. (And beautifully put, I might add) It's not that Sandor wanted to be saved by knights and learn songs, FM, but that he was idealistic and had dreamed of knighthood, saving damsels in distress, slaying bad guys. It's the dreaming that they have/had in common. BTW, Sandor was six or seven when he got burned. I must disagree w/you on the reasons behind the possible Gregor-killed-his-sister theory. Even if women are older I don't believe they can be heirs, (Asha's case is different...). I don't think anyone threatened Gregor's inheiratance(?) but it's possible he killed his father to speed that up, so you might have something there.
Flayed Man User ID: 8102723	Sep 15th 12:35 PM Uh AMi ami ami... about inhereitance, if one is too cruel and barbaric (I am sure his father knew the truth about sandor but never spoke) and too over zelous about fighting, even the mysoginic lord can change mind about inhereitance (it was true in medival times) Sandor... well he looked like monster and seemed to be ignored. so there might be a chance of gregor's father might have change mind.. so gregor fearing that and fearing that his people will side with his sister or sandor for that matter killed his father and sister. Also if there was no affaction between sandor and his sister, then why did he leave gregor as soon as she was dead? (besides reason fearing for his life) well more of knight hood and ideal is more same like bran instead of sansa (except of innocence) but I do agree with Tel that Sandor does feel sympathy for sansa who lost her innocence like he did. but with that also feels affection and resembles like his sister. Also both of them have something in common. both of them lost their father and they are basically alone. so sandor sensing this treats her "nice"... But here is the mystery. I hope any one can answere this. Where is Sandor after sansa sang??? cause it just made me wonder where the heck he gone off to? do you think he will come back???
Flayed Man User ID: 8102723	Sep 15th 12:36 PM Also no matter what I am going to stick with sister/brother relation ship theory
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 15th 12:37 PM No clue as to Sandor's whereabouts. A wild guess is that he drinks himself unconcious every night in some wine sink not far from KL. The guy seemed to have a drinking problem.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 15th 3:03 PM Sandor knew he had to leave KL because, in his mind, he had acted cowardly in the face of the enemy and he had been humiliated by Tyrion in front of the other men. As Haaruk has often pointed out, Sandor is not a deep thinker. He had to get away to sort things out in his own way. Complicating matters further was Sansa and her song being thrown into the equation. He should have everything figured out in about 14 years :)
Ami User ID: 1314254	Sep 16th 4:06 PM Good points, FM, but I'm still leaning against the inhereitance theory. Time will tell... Have you read the other Sandor threads? As far as where is he after CoK some think Sandor, like a dog, won't stray far from his (previous) masters... Some think he maybe going after Gregor... I personally don't have an opinion here because I agree that Sandor is not a deep thinker and primarily reacts to his environment so I find it hard to predict what he might do. Although, KAH probably has the right of it... you bust me up, KAH!
Flayed Man User ID: 8102723	Sep 16th 6:03 PM hmm but would sandor stand and watch joff if he is about to !!@@$ sansa??? I don't think so. by his heart he will react to that and mayeven castrate lannister punk (Some one said this and give cradit to her). but Sansa bore a bastard for Lion I don't think so..
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 17th 8:42 AM Flayed Man; Are you sure that Sandor has considered Joffrey in that light? Joff has grown up to be a punk, certainly, but I don't think he has seen much of Joff the Sex-crazed Teenager. Except from that last beating event, where Joff had Sansa's dress half torn off, but I'm not sure if the significance registered with Sandor.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 17th 9:36 AM Yeah, Sandor may have been thinking that Joff wanted Sansa to take a bath.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 17th 1:07 PM Or, alternatively, he was so appalled with the beating and the order from Joff to him, that he didn't consider that Joff had motives beyond being mean, when having her dress torn off.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 17th 1:37 PM Does anyone think that Sandor could desert KL and Sansa in his shame and accidentally meet up with Arya? I'd like to see that meeting! I think it would be lovely if Arya (with help from Sandor) ends up being the "true knight" who saves Sansa, although at this point, Arya does not seem to be headed down the "true knight" path. I know it's unlikely since Sandor is on the list of people that Arya chants to herself each night.
Flayed Man User ID: 8102723	Sep 17th 2:21 PM My dear Tel Assassin Arya is more like it
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 17th 3:40 PM An interesting twist, Telisiane. I am undoubtedly one of the few people on this board who a.) likes Sansa and b.) doesn't like Arya. I like the growth in Sansa and have a real problem with what Arya's becoming. My hope is that Sansa will survive, because a lot of effort has gone into her evolution from a spoiled prissy brat to a potentially strong female leader. I did say "potentially", didn't I. I hope it continues.
Jaerysa User ID: 0617234	Sep 18th 6:35 AM This is probably the wrong place to say it, but Arya is really only trying to survive, and trying to survive can change people a lot. However, is Sandor going to rebel against the Lannisters anyway? I don't think he will - at least not at the moment. I think he has to do a lot more realising of certain things before he starts doing anything like that. Despite his not being a deep thinker, I still think he must be aware of some things that are going on.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Sep 18th 3:06 PM Sandor is AWOL, so he sort of has already rebelled against the Lannisters. As you say though, Jaerysa, he's not a deep thinker and may not even realize the implications of what he's done. If he suddenly presents himself at KL, will Sandor now be arrested on sight?
Jaerysa/Jaylisa User ID: 0617234	Sep 18th 9:30 PM I'm rereading aCoK at the moment and it's only when I read a book for the second time that I actually take note of little details etc... I'm about halfway through it again... so in answer to that question, I'd need to just get a refresh on what's happened (I've forgotten most except the main points)
Shagga User ID: 8743893	Sep 19th 2:33 AM Sandor and Sansa sittin in a tree K I S S I N G.. Sandor sees in Sansa a lady who does not cringe from him. Septa mordane was a good teacher. In AGOT we see the initial conversation where he reaveals the true nature of his scars and his surly attitude. She does not shy away as most twitty 13 year old girls would do and Sandor knows that any other kind of noblewoman would not even look in his direction. He sees a strength in her that he doesn't trust but he is drawn to it. The only kind of strength Sandor knows is brute strength as so gracefully shown by his brother Gregor.
Jaylisa/Jaerysa User ID: 0617234	Sep 19th 3:31 AM Twitty 13 year old girls?? Sorry, just had to comment - and object to that description! It wasn't that long ago that I was 13... hey, I hope you only meant as in the books! :)
Ami User ID: 1062774	Sep 19th 8:48 PM Flayed Man, forgive me for being so thick! It dawned on me tonight how that inhereitance theory works. Tell me if I sum it up correctly: Lord Clegane realizes, "hey, my eldest son is a jerk", Gregor feels threatened, Dad has a "hunting accident", Sandor fears for his life... Regarding your first post in this thread, FM, you said "If one is too cruel and barbaric (I am sure his father knew the truth about Sandor but never spoke)...". Did you mean Gregor or the truth about the burning? That's just something I didn't follow. Also, there's no indication when his sister died, so we don't know that he left right after she died, but we do know that he left right after his father died, the same day, in fact.