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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Anything

Next 20 Messages

Bob
User ID: 0004344 Sep 17th 2:31 AM
The Targaryens have to right to rule the north, as y'all know, the Starks ruled as Kings in the North for over 8000 years,whereas the Targaryens ruled for only 300 years. When Dany comes to westeros, she will break her strength in the north.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 17th 5:58 AM
But Torrhen Stark gave up the Stark rule in the North to become warden of the north under the Targaryens.

It's not a matter of time, it's a matter of who knelt to who. And now it's a matter of strength more than anything. :)

Padraig
User ID: 9551723 Sep 19th 3:52 PM
And its a matter of whether kneeling to a Targaryen in the past puts you into a postion of permanent subservience to that family whatever follows.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 19th 4:04 PM
Right. I don't think the time that the Starks ruled vs. the time the Targaryens ruled has anything to do with claims. As it is now ... the Targaryens were deposed, and the only way their claim to Westeros will win out is by force. 'Legitimacy' doesn't have much to do with it.

Not many people are going to rally to Dany just because she's the only successor to Aerys around.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 20th 10:34 AM
Another little similarity to British history is that the King of Scotland (was it Alexander?) basically knelt to William the Conqueror without putting up full resistance. Of course, he did maintain his crown despite kneeling. Anyway, the English often used that submission as justification for their claims on Scotland through the centuries.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 6th 11:43 AM
I thought I might as well post this here, considering that Bob thoughtfully called the topic 'Anything'.

Has it struck anyone that the sudden arrival of the Tyrells at KL was sort of a 'deus ex machina' for the Bad Guys? The statemnet doesn't hold fully, considering that Tyrion, while an antagonist, still is a nice guy, and that Sansa would have died had it not been for the Tyrells.
Also, there's the fact that it was not totally out of the blue - we knew that Littlefinger had gone to Bitterbridge to negotiate with the Tyrells.

But I still found it kinda amusing - usually, it is the Good Guys that benefits from the d.e.m.'s. :o)

Padraig
User ID: 9551723 Oct 6th 2:30 PM
Where is my latin dictionary?

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Oct 6th 3:11 PM
It's in the Winterfell library :)

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 6th 3:27 PM
And I'm burning to get my hands on it. :oP

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 6th 3:33 PM
I think it translates into 'God out of the machine', or some such. No idea about it's origin.

My understanding is basically that it refers to a third party coming totally out of the blue, and interfers in a situation between two other parties. A big surprise, in all but badly written fantasy. :o)

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 6th 3:45 PM
An acting phrase from ancient times (dating from the Greeks; deus ex machina is the Latin version of it.)

During the Greek plays, there would be times when a god had to appear and solve certain problems. They had a particular device which, as I recall, lifted up to produce the actor as a god at the back of the stage.

Thus, god out of the machine. Sort of like a jack-in-the-box but randier.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 6th 4:06 PM
Nice tidbit, Ran.

Not having read much fantasy, I was sort of curious if other writers had used deus ex machina to benefit the Bad Guys, when they're on the brink of extinction.
Knowing fantasy cliches, I suppose it is unlikely, but...

Padraig
User ID: 8562343 Oct 7th 1:14 PM
There several puzzled people at work today trying to work out how God out of a machine could possibly mean what deus ex machina means. So thanks for clearing up that Ran.

Anyhow it was an interesting point by KAH in the first place before I sidetracked it.

Kevin
User ID: 1766884 Oct 7th 2:33 PM
Bob, are you going to post again or is this another Post and Run incident?

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 8th 1:09 AM
Fourthmanity. That's what it is. :-) Anyway, we will use the topic nevertheless... for anything.

Padraig
User ID: 8520773 Oct 8th 3:03 PM
A tale of woe. After Ser Gary kindly informed me of the location of the book I headed off to Winterfell post haste. I knew that it was terribly important that I discover the true meaning of those magic words uttered by KAH. But my eagerness was to be my downfall. I was informed by the librarian in Winterfell that the book had been taken out on loan on Oct 6th at 3:12, a minute after Ser Gary said it was in Winterfell. What luck was this I cried. But I was told there was another copy in existence. Rejoice. In Casterly Rock. Despair.

There was an ancient feud between my family and the Lannisters but I knew that those magic words must be revealed. So I ventured into the lion's den. Surely the Lannisters would not begrude me a lend of a book for something that happened 1000 years ago? But begrudge me they did. I was dragged out of the library and brought to Tywin himself. I had to listen as he vividly described his ancient grudge. I tried to make him see the importance of my quest. But he would not. I could only have the book at a price. And what a price.

I must become a squire. Not a bad thng one may say but in all the annals of my family no man from our family has ever become a squire to a knight outside our family. And Tywin knew of this. Oh he knew very well. And who was I to become a squire to? One of the great knights of our time? No. A dwarf! Noble born that dwarf may be but god-cursed none the less. My honour was in ruins but I knew I had no choice. I must find the meaning of those words.

So I submitted. Five years honest service as a squire or on my head it would be. Thus my name was submitted to the rolls as a squire to that shameful dwarf. And I then was given the book. I did find out the meaning of those words. And did the gods come forth to save me from my families dishonour as was written? No, curse them.

That was not the end of my sorrowful tale. When they entered my name on the rolls they mispelled my name. And once entered it cannot be changed. Is anything sacred? They spelt it Podrick. Oh the pain....

***shambles off stage deriding the gods****

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 9th 10:48 AM
Hey, if you set your hopes with some ancient Greek jack-in-the-box, you shouldn't be surprised that the mission to save you went FUBAR.

Padraig
User ID: 9502963 Oct 10th 12:17 PM
Yeah well I was bored senseless on a Friday afternoon and that was all I could think of.

Fourthman
User ID: 0526904 Oct 10th 12:21 PM
Fourthmanity, eh? Lemme see that dictionary...

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 11th 0:42 AM
Ha! I know you would read it! :-) Just trying to tease you back in here as begging doen't work. :-)

Next 20 Messages

Bob User ID: 0004344	Sep 17th 2:31 AM The Targaryens have to right to rule the north, as y'all know, the Starks ruled as Kings in the North for over 8000 years,whereas the Targaryens ruled for only 300 years. When Dany comes to westeros, she will break her strength in the north.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 17th 5:58 AM But Torrhen Stark gave up the Stark rule in the North to become warden of the north under the Targaryens. It's not a matter of time, it's a matter of who knelt to who. And now it's a matter of strength more than anything. :)
Padraig User ID: 9551723	Sep 19th 3:52 PM And its a matter of whether kneeling to a Targaryen in the past puts you into a postion of permanent subservience to that family whatever follows.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 19th 4:04 PM Right. I don't think the time that the Starks ruled vs. the time the Targaryens ruled has anything to do with claims. As it is now ... the Targaryens were deposed, and the only way their claim to Westeros will win out is by force. 'Legitimacy' doesn't have much to do with it. Not many people are going to rally to Dany just because she's the only successor to Aerys around.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 20th 10:34 AM Another little similarity to British history is that the King of Scotland (was it Alexander?) basically knelt to William the Conqueror without putting up full resistance. Of course, he did maintain his crown despite kneeling. Anyway, the English often used that submission as justification for their claims on Scotland through the centuries.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 6th 11:43 AM I thought I might as well post this here, considering that Bob thoughtfully called the topic 'Anything'. Has it struck anyone that the sudden arrival of the Tyrells at KL was sort of a 'deus ex machina' for the Bad Guys? The statemnet doesn't hold fully, considering that Tyrion, while an antagonist, still is a nice guy, and that Sansa would have died had it not been for the Tyrells. Also, there's the fact that it was not totally out of the blue - we knew that Littlefinger had gone to Bitterbridge to negotiate with the Tyrells. But I still found it kinda amusing - usually, it is the Good Guys that benefits from the d.e.m.'s. :o)
Padraig User ID: 9551723	Oct 6th 2:30 PM Where is my latin dictionary?
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Oct 6th 3:11 PM It's in the Winterfell library :)
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 6th 3:27 PM And I'm burning to get my hands on it. :oP
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 6th 3:33 PM I think it translates into 'God out of the machine', or some such. No idea about it's origin. My understanding is basically that it refers to a third party coming totally out of the blue, and interfers in a situation between two other parties. A big surprise, in all but badly written fantasy. :o)
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 6th 3:45 PM An acting phrase from ancient times (dating from the Greeks; deus ex machina is the Latin version of it.) During the Greek plays, there would be times when a god had to appear and solve certain problems. They had a particular device which, as I recall, lifted up to produce the actor as a god at the back of the stage. Thus, god out of the machine. Sort of like a jack-in-the-box but randier.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 6th 4:06 PM Nice tidbit, Ran. Not having read much fantasy, I was sort of curious if other writers had used deus ex machina to benefit the Bad Guys, when they're on the brink of extinction. Knowing fantasy cliches, I suppose it is unlikely, but...
Padraig User ID: 8562343	Oct 7th 1:14 PM There several puzzled people at work today trying to work out how God out of a machine could possibly mean what deus ex machina means. So thanks for clearing up that Ran. Anyhow it was an interesting point by KAH in the first place before I sidetracked it.
Kevin User ID: 1766884	Oct 7th 2:33 PM Bob, are you going to post again or is this another Post and Run incident?
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 8th 1:09 AM Fourthmanity. That's what it is. :-) Anyway, we will use the topic nevertheless... for anything.
Padraig User ID: 8520773	Oct 8th 3:03 PM A tale of woe. After Ser Gary kindly informed me of the location of the book I headed off to Winterfell post haste. I knew that it was terribly important that I discover the true meaning of those magic words uttered by KAH. But my eagerness was to be my downfall. I was informed by the librarian in Winterfell that the book had been taken out on loan on Oct 6th at 3:12, a minute after Ser Gary said it was in Winterfell. What luck was this I cried. But I was told there was another copy in existence. Rejoice. In Casterly Rock. Despair. There was an ancient feud between my family and the Lannisters but I knew that those magic words must be revealed. So I ventured into the lion's den. Surely the Lannisters would not begrude me a lend of a book for something that happened 1000 years ago? But begrudge me they did. I was dragged out of the library and brought to Tywin himself. I had to listen as he vividly described his ancient grudge. I tried to make him see the importance of my quest. But he would not. I could only have the book at a price. And what a price. I must become a squire. Not a bad thng one may say but in all the annals of my family no man from our family has ever become a squire to a knight outside our family. And Tywin knew of this. Oh he knew very well. And who was I to become a squire to? One of the great knights of our time? No. A dwarf! Noble born that dwarf may be but god-cursed none the less. My honour was in ruins but I knew I had no choice. I must find the meaning of those words. So I submitted. Five years honest service as a squire or on my head it would be. Thus my name was submitted to the rolls as a squire to that shameful dwarf. And I then was given the book. I did find out the meaning of those words. And did the gods come forth to save me from my families dishonour as was written? No, curse them. That was not the end of my sorrowful tale. When they entered my name on the rolls they mispelled my name. And once entered it cannot be changed. Is anything sacred? They spelt it Podrick. Oh the pain.... *shambles off stage deriding the gods**
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 9th 10:48 AM Hey, if you set your hopes with some ancient Greek jack-in-the-box, you shouldn't be surprised that the mission to save you went FUBAR.
Padraig User ID: 9502963	Oct 10th 12:17 PM Yeah well I was bored senseless on a Friday afternoon and that was all I could think of.
Fourthman User ID: 0526904	Oct 10th 12:21 PM Fourthmanity, eh? Lemme see that dictionary...
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 11th 0:42 AM Ha! I know you would read it! :-) Just trying to tease you back in here as begging doen't work. :-)