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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jon Snow: the missing Targaryen?

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Victaria
User ID: 9565813 Sep 21st 3:43 PM
Does anyone else think that Jon is perhaps the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Every time Ned remembered his sister, there was a bed and blood involved. And then we were told that Ned was seen bringing a baby home after Robert had won his throne. I know. A lot of people think that Targaryens have to have silver hair and purple eyes. Not necessarily. Everyone knows that dark hair and eyes are dominant to light hair and eyes. And the Starks have the "dominant" genes (don't ask me why all the Stark children have the Tully coloring; I think Martin did that to throw us off). It's just a theory, but I definitely think that Jon will have some kind of tie to the Iron Throne, but whether or not he'll deny it, remains a question. Also think that Dany and Jon will get together--perhaps even romantically. Don't know how they're going to do it, but I'm sure it will happen!

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Sep 21st 4:21 PM
Hi, Victaria. Welcome to the board. :)

A lot of people have discussed this one (though I'm afraid I couldn't tell you, offhand, which threads to look at.) I think the consensus is that Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I've seen many other theories bandied about. Some make him to really be Ned's son (by a woman named Wylla.)

I wish I could remember all the other theories, but there've been a lot. :)

Jaerysa
User ID: 8339223 Sep 21st 5:58 PM
There's a whole discussion on it on... I forget which of the boards. One of them. A Game of Thrones? But yes... there are quite a few things that support that...

Telisiane Sep 22nd 0:34 AM
Speaking of Targaryens, what the heck is up with Rhaegar? Does anyone else get the feeling that he was just the best guy and a true dragon? He was handsome, played the harp, won tournaments, had the respect of many, yadda yadda yadda. So far, he is the closest thing to the stereotypical "good" character that I have found, assuming of course that he did not kidnap Lyanna, which a few still believe. I cannot help but wonder if some aspect of Lyanna and Rhaegar's sad tale (other than the probable result of Jon Snow), as yet unrevealed, will be important to the rest of the story. It was such an important part of the first book that I began to believe that there is something in their story that will be crucial. Am I deluding myself?

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 22nd 8:07 AM
Telisiane, there are still a lot of holes yet to be filled with regard to the story of Rhaegar. I expect that will make for exciting reading in the upcoming books. But we do need to question the fact that he may well have been carrying on an extramarital affair with Lyanna or may have kidnapped her outright. Either way, his reputation would probably be at least somewhat tarnished.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 22nd 8:34 AM
I can't help but remember Robert discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna with such anger, and Ned thinking on it with such sadness. Does that tell us anything? Of all the people we've met in the series so far, only Ned (we haven't met Howland Reed yet) would know for sure what happened.

Telisiane Sep 22nd 8:47 AM
Yah, Ser Gary. Rhaegar, at the least carried on an extramarital affair. But compared to Robert, who sired numerous bastards while he was unmarried and married, Rhaegar strikes me as a saint.

Emily
User ID: 0456964 Sep 22nd 9:07 AM
Well, Robert was unfaithful to a wife he loathed, and who loathed him, made it clear she didn't want to sleep with him, and who was (though he didn't know it so it hardly counts as a mitigating factor) grossly unfaithful to him. Rhaegar on the other hand had what seemed to be a 'good wife', and they got on well in the vision Dany saw of them. So he has less excuse for adultery.

Telisiane
User ID: 9719083 Sep 22nd 8:43 PM
Hrm...but if Lyanna was the love of Rhaegar's life? That makes Rhaegar worse than Robert? It's okay for Robert to sleep with hordes of women he cares nothing about because his wife doesn't love him and he doesn't love her? Sorry...can't agree there. But I admit, living with Cersei could not have been a picnic! ;0) It's too bad that GRRM hasn't given us much to work with on either Robert or Rhaegar.

Jaerysa
User ID: 0617234 Sep 23rd 6:22 AM
That reminds me of something I noticed when rereading aCoK. It's probably been mentioned before, and I can't remember where it was exactly, but Dany was remembering how Viserys had told her how Rhaegar had been loved by the people.

labor
User ID: 0415304 Sep 23rd 8:19 AM

Emily, I will maintain to my dying breath that Robert's awful relationship with Cersei wasn't all her fault, but some of his as well. Cersei, while not a nice person, likely wasn't inherently evil at 17 and IMHO a right man could have won her loyality and somewhat corrected her attitude. Robert went into this marriage resenting Cersei for not being Lyanna and making no bones of it, and disaster followed.

As to Rhaegar, his was a marriage of state. We don't know how good a relationship he had with his wife, but it certainly was based on reason and wouldn't make him immune to a great passion.

I, personally, question his sterling reputation because he failed to make his madman of a father inoffensive (Regency?) and because he went about escape (and I think that it was voluntary on her part) with Lyanna in such a stupid fashion. If the Starks were informed that she wasn't being kidnapped and raped, the things might have gone differently. I really hope to find out in ASOS that some mischance was responsible for this.

Jaerysa, according to Viserys the people were cheering for Aerys! It isn't as ubelievable as it sounds - during his reign the taxes were lower than under Robert and the royal treasury was overflowing with gold. The smallfolk was too unsignificant to attract his maddness, so likely they knew little about his cruelty (or he went nuts rather suddenly and didn't live overly long i.e. 1-2 years, afterwards).

Telisiane
User ID: 9719083 Sep 23rd 9:25 AM
Labor....Are you defending Cersei? Welcome to the Cersei Sisterhood! Min and I welcome you in with open arms! ;0)

Thorfinn
User ID: 1091134 Sep 23rd 10:29 AM
I could be just flabbing away but, could have the "mad king -Aeogon (sp?-" raped Lyanna? And Rheagar loved her and his wife so he stole Lyanna away to keep her away from his father. Therfore turning his father insane and going on a killing spree. So, Jon maybe Lyanna and the "mad kings" son. It's probably way off but, well maybe.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Sep 23rd 1:21 PM

Teleisane, I am pretty sure that all the Lords of the Great Houses are required to swear fealty to the King. Concerning Ned versus Lannisters - I used to be the one who argued that his honour (and that of the Starks in general) isn't all that it is touted out to be. If it interests you, look at the discussion under "Tyrion II" title on the old ACOK board. And somewhere on the "Jon" topics you might read what Emily and I think about Ned sending Jon to the Wall. Anyway, I see Ned's grey side, even if many would prefer to notice only the "shining hero".

As for Jaime - IMHO what could be held against him is that he only killed Aerys when it was safe for him to do so and that he allowed his father to murder Rhaegar's children whom he was likewise sworn to protect with his life. Aerys certainly deserved his fate, but the children didn't and Jaime has no excuse in failing his duty towards them.

Defense of Cersei - Teleisane, I am known around here as defender of the Lannisters in general. I hold her innoncent of Jon Arryn's poisoning, of attempt on Bran's life _and_ of attempt on Tyrion. However, I do think that she is rather stupid and is wholly responsible for the rather miserable situation she is currently in (as of the end of ACOK). I also believe that her having absolutely no doubts about the "rightness" of her actions and no remorse whatsoever diminishes her character and brings her closer to a cardboard villainness.

Tom
User ID: 7740423 Sep 24th 0:31 AM
I see a thunderous sky filled with dark clouds roiling in the tempest winds. Upon the field two hosts face one another. On one side, gleaming gold of the Lion, and on the other the raggad and motley hordes of the valient North.
The vanguards charge and the earth crumbles beneath their ironshod horses; crashing together waves of blood sour the bounty of life.
Two men meet. The Lord Tywin and his fallen son Jaime. Fighting for the North and his own redemption, Jaime's body is rent by the eversharp blade of his father. Turning Tywin sees hell in the form of a direwolf, running on two-legs. A scream is ripped from his throat as Ice cleaves him from sternum to groin. Overhead the heavens part and framed upon the background of fire and death are three dragons come to witness the last murder's death. The healing can now begin.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 24th 7:33 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what the hell does 'sternum' mean?

Min
User ID: 1446254 Sep 24th 7:37 AM
It doesn't matter, Kay. Cut in half is what is meant. :-)

Beautiful, Tom. Powerful vision.

Tom
User ID: 7740423 Sep 24th 9:21 PM
Sorry for the confusion KAH and thanks for the complement Min. I watch Excalibur on DVD and got inspired (?). Ha. Doesn't happen often.

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Sep 24th 11:55 PM
Nah...its pah that Rhegar was a saint

He first saw Lyanna as a 14 or 15 year old girl at a tournament. Could anything but her body have interestd him? I can't buy it that she was the "love of his life" He had little or no interaction with her (probably none) before naming her his Queen of Beauty at the tournament and giving her the white roses. This was a terrible insult to his wife. He is just a guy who comitted adultery with a teenager. I agree with Emily. Rhegar is not a saint. He is a human being.

Victaria
User ID: 1606604 Sep 27th 3:20 PM
Thanks for the welcome, Ran, and hello everyone!
This is all new to me--I have never written on a message board like this, so pardon any "screw-ups" on my part.
So now we've got the theories on Jon, but does anyone think that he'll find someone (i.e. a woman)? I still believe that somehow Dany and Jon will meet and perhaps something will happen between them. I mean, they're both alone--yes, Dany has her people, but she is still emotionally "alone"--and they have always kind of been outcasts. Dany was always running in fear of being killed and Jon just never fit in because he was a bastard son. I think they'd be a perfect match. They would be able to understand what each of them is going through because they have experienced pretty much the same things, as far as emotions go. I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks the way I do, too.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Victaria User ID: 9565813	Sep 21st 3:43 PM Does anyone else think that Jon is perhaps the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Every time Ned remembered his sister, there was a bed and blood involved. And then we were told that Ned was seen bringing a baby home after Robert had won his throne. I know. A lot of people think that Targaryens have to have silver hair and purple eyes. Not necessarily. Everyone knows that dark hair and eyes are dominant to light hair and eyes. And the Starks have the "dominant" genes (don't ask me why all the Stark children have the Tully coloring; I think Martin did that to throw us off). It's just a theory, but I definitely think that Jon will have some kind of tie to the Iron Throne, but whether or not he'll deny it, remains a question. Also think that Dany and Jon will get together--perhaps even romantically. Don't know how they're going to do it, but I'm sure it will happen!
Ran User ID: 0283314	Sep 21st 4:21 PM Hi, Victaria. Welcome to the board. :) A lot of people have discussed this one (though I'm afraid I couldn't tell you, offhand, which threads to look at.) I think the consensus is that Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I've seen many other theories bandied about. Some make him to really be Ned's son (by a woman named Wylla.) I wish I could remember all the other theories, but there've been a lot. :)
Jaerysa User ID: 8339223	Sep 21st 5:58 PM There's a whole discussion on it on... I forget which of the boards. One of them. A Game of Thrones? But yes... there are quite a few things that support that...
Telisiane	Sep 22nd 0:34 AM Speaking of Targaryens, what the heck is up with Rhaegar? Does anyone else get the feeling that he was just the best guy and a true dragon? He was handsome, played the harp, won tournaments, had the respect of many, yadda yadda yadda. So far, he is the closest thing to the stereotypical "good" character that I have found, assuming of course that he did not kidnap Lyanna, which a few still believe. I cannot help but wonder if some aspect of Lyanna and Rhaegar's sad tale (other than the probable result of Jon Snow), as yet unrevealed, will be important to the rest of the story. It was such an important part of the first book that I began to believe that there is something in their story that will be crucial. Am I deluding myself?
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 22nd 8:07 AM Telisiane, there are still a lot of holes yet to be filled with regard to the story of Rhaegar. I expect that will make for exciting reading in the upcoming books. But we do need to question the fact that he may well have been carrying on an extramarital affair with Lyanna or may have kidnapped her outright. Either way, his reputation would probably be at least somewhat tarnished.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 22nd 8:34 AM I can't help but remember Robert discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna with such anger, and Ned thinking on it with such sadness. Does that tell us anything? Of all the people we've met in the series so far, only Ned (we haven't met Howland Reed yet) would know for sure what happened.
Telisiane	Sep 22nd 8:47 AM Yah, Ser Gary. Rhaegar, at the least carried on an extramarital affair. But compared to Robert, who sired numerous bastards while he was unmarried and married, Rhaegar strikes me as a saint.
Emily User ID: 0456964	Sep 22nd 9:07 AM Well, Robert was unfaithful to a wife he loathed, and who loathed him, made it clear she didn't want to sleep with him, and who was (though he didn't know it so it hardly counts as a mitigating factor) grossly unfaithful to him. Rhaegar on the other hand had what seemed to be a 'good wife', and they got on well in the vision Dany saw of them. So he has less excuse for adultery.
Telisiane User ID: 9719083	Sep 22nd 8:43 PM Hrm...but if Lyanna was the love of Rhaegar's life? That makes Rhaegar worse than Robert? It's okay for Robert to sleep with hordes of women he cares nothing about because his wife doesn't love him and he doesn't love her? Sorry...can't agree there. But I admit, living with Cersei could not have been a picnic! ;0) It's too bad that GRRM hasn't given us much to work with on either Robert or Rhaegar.
Jaerysa User ID: 0617234	Sep 23rd 6:22 AM That reminds me of something I noticed when rereading aCoK. It's probably been mentioned before, and I can't remember where it was exactly, but Dany was remembering how Viserys had told her how Rhaegar had been loved by the people.
labor User ID: 0415304	Sep 23rd 8:19 AM Emily, I will maintain to my dying breath that Robert's awful relationship with Cersei wasn't all her fault, but some of his as well. Cersei, while not a nice person, likely wasn't inherently evil at 17 and IMHO a right man could have won her loyality and somewhat corrected her attitude. Robert went into this marriage resenting Cersei for not being Lyanna and making no bones of it, and disaster followed. As to Rhaegar, his was a marriage of state. We don't know how good a relationship he had with his wife, but it certainly was based on reason and wouldn't make him immune to a great passion. I, personally, question his sterling reputation because he failed to make his madman of a father inoffensive (Regency?) and because he went about escape (and I think that it was voluntary on her part) with Lyanna in such a stupid fashion. If the Starks were informed that she wasn't being kidnapped and raped, the things might have gone differently. I really hope to find out in ASOS that some mischance was responsible for this. Jaerysa, according to Viserys the people were cheering for Aerys! It isn't as ubelievable as it sounds - during his reign the taxes were lower than under Robert and the royal treasury was overflowing with gold. The smallfolk was too unsignificant to attract his maddness, so likely they knew little about his cruelty (or he went nuts rather suddenly and didn't live overly long i.e. 1-2 years, afterwards).
Telisiane User ID: 9719083	Sep 23rd 9:25 AM Labor....Are you defending Cersei? Welcome to the Cersei Sisterhood! Min and I welcome you in with open arms! ;0)
Thorfinn User ID: 1091134	Sep 23rd 10:29 AM I could be just flabbing away but, could have the "mad king -Aeogon (sp?-" raped Lyanna? And Rheagar loved her and his wife so he stole Lyanna away to keep her away from his father. Therfore turning his father insane and going on a killing spree. So, Jon maybe Lyanna and the "mad kings" son. It's probably way off but, well maybe.
labor User ID: 8479113	Sep 23rd 1:21 PM Teleisane, I am pretty sure that all the Lords of the Great Houses are required to swear fealty to the King. Concerning Ned versus Lannisters - I used to be the one who argued that his honour (and that of the Starks in general) isn't all that it is touted out to be. If it interests you, look at the discussion under "Tyrion II" title on the old ACOK board. And somewhere on the "Jon" topics you might read what Emily and I think about Ned sending Jon to the Wall. Anyway, I see Ned's grey side, even if many would prefer to notice only the "shining hero". As for Jaime - IMHO what could be held against him is that he only killed Aerys when it was safe for him to do so and that he allowed his father to murder Rhaegar's children whom he was likewise sworn to protect with his life. Aerys certainly deserved his fate, but the children didn't and Jaime has no excuse in failing his duty towards them. Defense of Cersei - Teleisane, I am known around here as defender of the Lannisters in general. I hold her innoncent of Jon Arryn's poisoning, of attempt on Bran's life _and_ of attempt on Tyrion. However, I do think that she is rather stupid and is wholly responsible for the rather miserable situation she is currently in (as of the end of ACOK). I also believe that her having absolutely no doubts about the "rightness" of her actions and no remorse whatsoever diminishes her character and brings her closer to a cardboard villainness.
Tom User ID: 7740423	Sep 24th 0:31 AM I see a thunderous sky filled with dark clouds roiling in the tempest winds. Upon the field two hosts face one another. On one side, gleaming gold of the Lion, and on the other the raggad and motley hordes of the valient North. The vanguards charge and the earth crumbles beneath their ironshod horses; crashing together waves of blood sour the bounty of life. Two men meet. The Lord Tywin and his fallen son Jaime. Fighting for the North and his own redemption, Jaime's body is rent by the eversharp blade of his father. Turning Tywin sees hell in the form of a direwolf, running on two-legs. A scream is ripped from his throat as Ice cleaves him from sternum to groin. Overhead the heavens part and framed upon the background of fire and death are three dragons come to witness the last murder's death. The healing can now begin.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 24th 7:33 AM Pardon my ignorance, but what the hell does 'sternum' mean?
Min User ID: 1446254	Sep 24th 7:37 AM It doesn't matter, Kay. Cut in half is what is meant. :-) Beautiful, Tom. Powerful vision.
Tom User ID: 7740423	Sep 24th 9:21 PM Sorry for the confusion KAH and thanks for the complement Min. I watch Excalibur on DVD and got inspired (?). Ha. Doesn't happen often.
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Sep 24th 11:55 PM Nah...its pah that Rhegar was a saint He first saw Lyanna as a 14 or 15 year old girl at a tournament. Could anything but her body have interestd him? I can't buy it that she was the "love of his life" He had little or no interaction with her (probably none) before naming her his Queen of Beauty at the tournament and giving her the white roses. This was a terrible insult to his wife. He is just a guy who comitted adultery with a teenager. I agree with Emily. Rhegar is not a saint. He is a human being.
Victaria User ID: 1606604	Sep 27th 3:20 PM Thanks for the welcome, Ran, and hello everyone! This is all new to me--I have never written on a message board like this, so pardon any "screw-ups" on my part. So now we've got the theories on Jon, but does anyone think that he'll find someone (i.e. a woman)? I still believe that somehow Dany and Jon will meet and perhaps something will happen between them. I mean, they're both alone--yes, Dany has her people, but she is still emotionally "alone"--and they have always kind of been outcasts. Dany was always running in fear of being killed and Jon just never fit in because he was a bastard son. I think they'd be a perfect match. They would be able to understand what each of them is going through because they have experienced pretty much the same things, as far as emotions go. I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks the way I do, too.