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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Long Live the Jerk-Offs

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doctor doom
User ID: 9649143 Sep 27th 11:45 AM
I don't know about anyone else, but the best parts about this series has been the incredible amount of jerk-offs in it. Stannis is the first to come to mind. He's great!! I mean, he's the rightful heir to the Baraethon throne and he's gonna fight for it. He enlists the aid of a completely evil priestess, who births shadow demons, and then has one of them kill his own baby brother (who deserved to die for his rebellious deeds). He forces everyone under his command to switch religions under penalty of death and then grinds his own armies into powder against the defenses of King's Landing. And, just to drive the point home, he had the Onion Knight's fingers cut off for being a smuggler, after Davos saved Stannis from seige. How cool is this guy?
If you think for one second the good ol' Bronn is going to be sticking with Tyrion now that he's Ser Bronn, you've got to get your head examined. Bronn is all about one thing, MONEY! Now that Tyrion's scarred and worthless in King's Landing, Bronn isn't about to bite the hand that just gave him a new knighthood, Tywin.
Finally, how can anyone not like the Roose Bolton/Reek deal. Roose, helping out Robb in all those battles and now holding Harrenthal is gonna stomp his "leige lord" into the ground. And Reek, anyone who burns Winterfell to dust is awesome. I love how he appears to help out Rodrik in retaking Winterfell from Theon (another great jerk) and then cuts his arm off. Ha! How could you not like that? I offered him my hand, then I took his arm. Classic.
Tell me why you hate or like (as I do) these, or any other backstabbers and jerk-offs.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Sep 27th 12:26 PM
Seeing the title of this topic, I kinda anticipated a slightly different subject... :o)

Anyway, as I use to say - a story is no good if there are no great baddies in it.

doctor doom
User ID: 9649143 Sep 27th 12:34 PM
Exactly KAH. How can you root for the Starks so passionately if Littlefingers wasn't such a jerk-off that he betrays Ned?

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 27th 1:09 PM
I wonder if Petyr Baelish actually performs self gratification to the extent that he can be labelled such.

Anywhoo, I am firmly in the Jaime Lannister fan club. I just like his cynical outlook and attitude. It's not one that I would impersonate, nor actually use in RL, but in the books, it certainly has it's appeal.

Swithin
User ID: 0443584 Sep 27th 10:26 PM
Apparently Petyr Baelish does it so often he got caught in a public restroom in a park in LA. Where do you think he got his nickname, after all?

I'd have to say the most superfluous jerk-off, utterly irredeemable for he does nothing other than screw up and bore me to death, is Hot Pie. Joffrey comes in a close second.

ps - I actually think Littlefinger is pretty cool. Not as crafty as Varys, but hey, it's fun watching evil and ambitious characters who seem to make up for their natural lack of talent through ingenuity. He might be a tad predictable, but it's a small tad.

labor
User ID: 1891784 Sep 28th 7:47 AM

Littlefinger predictable and less crafty than Varys? Who was it, who saw through and messed up all the Varys' carefully laid plans for his own advantage? I agree that Littlefinger is a great villain, though, - intelligent, ambitious, ruthless and not without a certain charm. And with a very interesting and ambiguous pre-history. "Life is not song", indeed.

doctor doom
User ID: 8611103 Sep 28th 8:57 AM
Hey Swithin! Don't pick on Hot Pie! Hot Pie is one of the funniest characters ever. Wouldn't it be great if Hot Pie was the new POV. He'd be yelling HOT PIE! or I YIELD! all the time.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Sep 28th 10:00 AM
I personally like Lord Tywin Lannister. Just about everyone is afraid of him. Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger, Varys. The list goes on and on. He doesn't speak very often and those around him grovel to keep in his good favour. He's ruthless and cruel and composed. A bit arrogant too. It seems that all of his children got one trait from him. Put them all together and you get Lord Tywin. Roose Bolton comes in pretty close.

Padraig
User ID: 9461303 Sep 28th 1:59 PM
Tywin reeks power and ruthlessness. Offhand I can't think of anyone that comes close that we hav met.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 28th 3:22 PM
You know, I'm trying to think of something really rotten that Tywin has done and I'm having some difficulty. I suppose the worst thing is raiding Tully lands after Tyrion was seized. But other than that, what has Tywin done that was really so horrible?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Sep 28th 3:23 PM
How about Gregor Clegane? He burned his little brother's face, allegedly killed some wives and is basically Lord Tywin's raper and pillager. He loves to torture people. I'm sure there is much more "fun" to come w/ the Mountain that rides.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Sep 28th 3:25 PM
You think he might have had something to do with that innkeeper's body hanging outside of her establishment at the crossroads?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 28th 4:21 PM
Good point there, Ser Benjen. Tywin clearly used Gregor as his "heavy". But Tywin also seems to have been content to rule his own lands during Robert's reign. If his idiotic daughter and Jaime hadn't screwed things up, Tywin appeared content to fill his role as head of House lannister in relative peace. Most of his actions in ASOIAF were in reaction to the imprudent actions of others. In essence, his motives seem to be protecting his family and his family's honor, and he at least committed no acts that placed this motive into conflict with what was good for the Kingdom.

The actions of Cersei and Jaime were what placed Tywin in the position of either abandoning his family or engaging in some rather unsavory acts. I'm not excusing some of his conduct, but I certainly got the feeling that he was kind of upset at the problems his children had caused. A very formiddable, dangerous lord, but not one I feel is particularly a "bad" guy.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Sep 28th 4:59 PM
Jeff - Recall that Tywin initiated the bad treatment of Tysha, Tyrion's old love. She may or may not have been truly a whore, but I doubt that she deserved it when Tywin "gave" her to his men and instructed Tyrion to watch. I thought that this act by Tywin was a particularly cruel one which seemed to permanently damage Tyrion. Perhaps he's not a full-fledged "baddie", but he's definitely one of the more interesting and clever "dark grey" characters.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Sep 29th 9:11 AM
Cruel Tywins treatment of the Tyrion/Tysha thing may have been but in his eyes Tyrion dishonored his house and his family. Very bad thing to do. He had to be taught a lesson. It was a harsh one but I don't think that Lord Tywin is one for subtleties. Besides, Tyrion never forgot it did he?

Tywin probably had some notion of what Cersei was plotting. Remember that he instructed Lancel to do whatever Cersei asked of him. I think he was hoping that they would off Robert. He wanted to be Hand again. He does love to be in power doesn't he. Gotta love it.

doctor doom
User ID: 9036243 Sep 29th 10:31 AM
Besides the situation with Tyrion/Tysha, Tywin really hasn't done anything too bad, and certainly not in the ranks of the Mountain That Rides, Reek, or Joffery. But, now that Tywin's the Hand and hanging around King's Landing, you're gonna see how bad a man he really is. Espically when he finds Tyrion's little girlfriend.

labor
User ID: 1891784 Sep 29th 12:07 PM

Now, I am really surprised. I like the character of Lord Tywin - more for the potential he has and his dry wit than for anything he had done so far - his actions to the point being those of a generic, although gifted, Evil Overlord. He certainly needs some fleshing-out and I would love to see his POV.

But the notion the he didn't do anything bad?! Do you all forget that Rhaegar's children and likely Elia were murdered on his direct orders? Do you likewise forget that when he took King's Landing (for which he may or may not have had good reasons), he allowed his troops to kill, rape and pillage as they liked? And could you have missed that everything Ser Amory, Gregor and the Mummers did in the Riverlands was done on Tywin's direct order? He is the one responsible for all those atrocities!!! "They shall burn, my lord".

He certainly is more evil than Littlefinger, Jaime, Joff and possibly even Cersei.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Sep 29th 4:40 PM
To answer your question, labor, I guess I did sort of overlook all that. :) You're right -- he is a nasty bastard.

doctor doom
User ID: 0345364 Sep 30th 9:17 AM
Yeah labor, but's that's war. Tywin did all those things against his enemies ina war to control a kingdom. Sometimes one must do what one must do. I don't think that doing things during a war make Tywin the big baddie. Gregor burned Sandor's face for no reason at all, Jamie pushed Bran out a window because he didn't want his love affair to be discovered (not an act of war though), and Littlefinger betrayed Ned for personal gain, even though he knew Ned to be correct in all his judgments. At least Tywin has the excuse of a war on his side (not that it makes it right, mind you).

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Sep 30th 9:40 AM
Well, just to offer the opposite viewpoint....

Gregor burned Sandor's face because he stole his toy knight. Jaime didn't really push Bran out of the window because he didn't want the affair discovered, he simply wanted to have more sex, and "three's a crowd" (not to mention a 9-year old's involvement is really sick), and Littlefinger was merely trying to save the Kingdom from the chaos that would erupt after it was discovered that one of the most powerful families in Westeros is not quite what it seems.

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doctor doom User ID: 9649143	Sep 27th 11:45 AM I don't know about anyone else, but the best parts about this series has been the incredible amount of jerk-offs in it. Stannis is the first to come to mind. He's great!! I mean, he's the rightful heir to the Baraethon throne and he's gonna fight for it. He enlists the aid of a completely evil priestess, who births shadow demons, and then has one of them kill his own baby brother (who deserved to die for his rebellious deeds). He forces everyone under his command to switch religions under penalty of death and then grinds his own armies into powder against the defenses of King's Landing. And, just to drive the point home, he had the Onion Knight's fingers cut off for being a smuggler, after Davos saved Stannis from seige. How cool is this guy? If you think for one second the good ol' Bronn is going to be sticking with Tyrion now that he's Ser Bronn, you've got to get your head examined. Bronn is all about one thing, MONEY! Now that Tyrion's scarred and worthless in King's Landing, Bronn isn't about to bite the hand that just gave him a new knighthood, Tywin. Finally, how can anyone not like the Roose Bolton/Reek deal. Roose, helping out Robb in all those battles and now holding Harrenthal is gonna stomp his "leige lord" into the ground. And Reek, anyone who burns Winterfell to dust is awesome. I love how he appears to help out Rodrik in retaking Winterfell from Theon (another great jerk) and then cuts his arm off. Ha! How could you not like that? I offered him my hand, then I took his arm. Classic. Tell me why you hate or like (as I do) these, or any other backstabbers and jerk-offs.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Sep 27th 12:26 PM Seeing the title of this topic, I kinda anticipated a slightly different subject... :o) Anyway, as I use to say - a story is no good if there are no great baddies in it.
doctor doom User ID: 9649143	Sep 27th 12:34 PM Exactly KAH. How can you root for the Starks so passionately if Littlefingers wasn't such a jerk-off that he betrays Ned?
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 27th 1:09 PM I wonder if Petyr Baelish actually performs self gratification to the extent that he can be labelled such. Anywhoo, I am firmly in the Jaime Lannister fan club. I just like his cynical outlook and attitude. It's not one that I would impersonate, nor actually use in RL, but in the books, it certainly has it's appeal.
Swithin User ID: 0443584	Sep 27th 10:26 PM Apparently Petyr Baelish does it so often he got caught in a public restroom in a park in LA. Where do you think he got his nickname, after all? I'd have to say the most superfluous jerk-off, utterly irredeemable for he does nothing other than screw up and bore me to death, is Hot Pie. Joffrey comes in a close second. ps - I actually think Littlefinger is pretty cool. Not as crafty as Varys, but hey, it's fun watching evil and ambitious characters who seem to make up for their natural lack of talent through ingenuity. He might be a tad predictable, but it's a small tad.
labor User ID: 1891784	Sep 28th 7:47 AM Littlefinger predictable and less crafty than Varys? Who was it, who saw through and messed up all the Varys' carefully laid plans for his own advantage? I agree that Littlefinger is a great villain, though, - intelligent, ambitious, ruthless and not without a certain charm. And with a very interesting and ambiguous pre-history. "Life is not song", indeed.
doctor doom User ID: 8611103	Sep 28th 8:57 AM Hey Swithin! Don't pick on Hot Pie! Hot Pie is one of the funniest characters ever. Wouldn't it be great if Hot Pie was the new POV. He'd be yelling HOT PIE! or I YIELD! all the time.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Sep 28th 10:00 AM I personally like Lord Tywin Lannister. Just about everyone is afraid of him. Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Littlefinger, Varys. The list goes on and on. He doesn't speak very often and those around him grovel to keep in his good favour. He's ruthless and cruel and composed. A bit arrogant too. It seems that all of his children got one trait from him. Put them all together and you get Lord Tywin. Roose Bolton comes in pretty close.
Padraig User ID: 9461303	Sep 28th 1:59 PM Tywin reeks power and ruthlessness. Offhand I can't think of anyone that comes close that we hav met.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 28th 3:22 PM You know, I'm trying to think of something really rotten that Tywin has done and I'm having some difficulty. I suppose the worst thing is raiding Tully lands after Tyrion was seized. But other than that, what has Tywin done that was really so horrible?
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Sep 28th 3:23 PM How about Gregor Clegane? He burned his little brother's face, allegedly killed some wives and is basically Lord Tywin's raper and pillager. He loves to torture people. I'm sure there is much more "fun" to come w/ the Mountain that rides.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Sep 28th 3:25 PM You think he might have had something to do with that innkeeper's body hanging outside of her establishment at the crossroads?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 28th 4:21 PM Good point there, Ser Benjen. Tywin clearly used Gregor as his "heavy". But Tywin also seems to have been content to rule his own lands during Robert's reign. If his idiotic daughter and Jaime hadn't screwed things up, Tywin appeared content to fill his role as head of House lannister in relative peace. Most of his actions in ASOIAF were in reaction to the imprudent actions of others. In essence, his motives seem to be protecting his family and his family's honor, and he at least committed no acts that placed this motive into conflict with what was good for the Kingdom. The actions of Cersei and Jaime were what placed Tywin in the position of either abandoning his family or engaging in some rather unsavory acts. I'm not excusing some of his conduct, but I certainly got the feeling that he was kind of upset at the problems his children had caused. A very formiddable, dangerous lord, but not one I feel is particularly a "bad" guy.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Sep 28th 4:59 PM Jeff - Recall that Tywin initiated the bad treatment of Tysha, Tyrion's old love. She may or may not have been truly a whore, but I doubt that she deserved it when Tywin "gave" her to his men and instructed Tyrion to watch. I thought that this act by Tywin was a particularly cruel one which seemed to permanently damage Tyrion. Perhaps he's not a full-fledged "baddie", but he's definitely one of the more interesting and clever "dark grey" characters.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Sep 29th 9:11 AM Cruel Tywins treatment of the Tyrion/Tysha thing may have been but in his eyes Tyrion dishonored his house and his family. Very bad thing to do. He had to be taught a lesson. It was a harsh one but I don't think that Lord Tywin is one for subtleties. Besides, Tyrion never forgot it did he? Tywin probably had some notion of what Cersei was plotting. Remember that he instructed Lancel to do whatever Cersei asked of him. I think he was hoping that they would off Robert. He wanted to be Hand again. He does love to be in power doesn't he. Gotta love it.
doctor doom User ID: 9036243	Sep 29th 10:31 AM Besides the situation with Tyrion/Tysha, Tywin really hasn't done anything too bad, and certainly not in the ranks of the Mountain That Rides, Reek, or Joffery. But, now that Tywin's the Hand and hanging around King's Landing, you're gonna see how bad a man he really is. Espically when he finds Tyrion's little girlfriend.
labor User ID: 1891784	Sep 29th 12:07 PM Now, I am really surprised. I like the character of Lord Tywin - more for the potential he has and his dry wit than for anything he had done so far - his actions to the point being those of a generic, although gifted, Evil Overlord. He certainly needs some fleshing-out and I would love to see his POV. But the notion the he didn't do anything bad?! Do you all forget that Rhaegar's children and likely Elia were murdered on his direct orders? Do you likewise forget that when he took King's Landing (for which he may or may not have had good reasons), he allowed his troops to kill, rape and pillage as they liked? And could you have missed that everything Ser Amory, Gregor and the Mummers did in the Riverlands was done on Tywin's direct order? He is the one responsible for all those atrocities!!! "They shall burn, my lord". He certainly is more evil than Littlefinger, Jaime, Joff and possibly even Cersei.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Sep 29th 4:40 PM To answer your question, labor, I guess I did sort of overlook all that. :) You're right -- he is a nasty bastard.
doctor doom User ID: 0345364	Sep 30th 9:17 AM Yeah labor, but's that's war. Tywin did all those things against his enemies ina war to control a kingdom. Sometimes one must do what one must do. I don't think that doing things during a war make Tywin the big baddie. Gregor burned Sandor's face for no reason at all, Jamie pushed Bran out a window because he didn't want his love affair to be discovered (not an act of war though), and Littlefinger betrayed Ned for personal gain, even though he knew Ned to be correct in all his judgments. At least Tywin has the excuse of a war on his side (not that it makes it right, mind you).
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Sep 30th 9:40 AM Well, just to offer the opposite viewpoint.... Gregor burned Sandor's face because he stole his toy knight. Jaime didn't really push Bran out of the window because he didn't want the affair discovered, he simply wanted to have more sex, and "three's a crowd" (not to mention a 9-year old's involvement is really sick), and Littlefinger was merely trying to save the Kingdom from the chaos that would erupt after it was discovered that one of the most powerful families in Westeros is not quite what it seems.