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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jon's Mother II

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haaruk Apr 9th 6:34 PM
Continuing the Discussion.

In Dany's vision Rhaegar is present but is it the real Rhaegar? I think it is a visionary Rhaegar rather than an actual one. I rather doubt that Rhaegar would know of a 'song of ice and fire' or the philosophy of such. I believe that like the Wolf Head scene and many others it was symbolic, created to import a message to Dany and to us.

Ran, if Martin stated that Aegon is dead I will not try to resurrect him.

Kah if Aegon is dead (Ran, can you tell me what Martin specifically said), then my theory of the Twins is seriously compromised if not broken. If Aegon was still alive and Rhaenys is dead as Varys verified(?), and if only one other woman has given birth to a child of Rhaegars, then by my Hypothesis that woman must have birthed twins.

There is another reason why I do not believe that Dany is one of the heads of the dragon. That is based on what I believe the theory of ice and fire actually means. I believe it is a philosophy based on the balance of forces. Dany is told by the undying ones that to gain wisdom she must "drink from the cup of ice" and "drink from the cup of fire". She must understand why the Targaryens failed. Learn what their great mistake was.

Martin, I believe, is bringing the Targaryen drama full circle. Extending a chance for redemption and renewal. When Aegon came to Westeros with his sisters he made the comment (dealing from memory here) that Targaryen's "Do not mate with animals". He takes both of his sisters to wife. This prejudice precipitates the decline of the Targaryens due to severe inbreeding and the consequences thereof. Martin parallels the Targaryens situation with the bones of dragons that show severe physical deformities also due to inbreeding. He is showing the decline of the Targaryens by that graphic symbolism. That decline was almost abbreviated by Daeron the second (again from memory) before whom the line of the dragonkings had almost died out. Daeron did not marry a sister but a Dorne and in so doing united the kingdom peacefully. Probably because of both arrogance and ignorance the Targaryen's resumed the marriages between brother and sister. This time spiraling towards the tragedy that was Aerys. Rhaegar as did Daeron married a Dorne. Another chance for the Targaryen's and Westeros but not enough. Knowledge is also necessary and a change in philosophy.

One of the reasons I do not believe Dany is one of the heads of the dragon and that the children must be Rhaegars is because I think the children are meant to dissolve the dead end consequences of familial inbreeding. Dany cannot do that. A child of incest herself (as was Rhaegar) Martin has made her barren.

Moreta, I do not know how prevalent violet eyes are in Westeros. Obviously others beside the Targaryens and Ashara Dayne must have them. I concede the point that they are probably rare.

Ran the observation about Mairei is interesting. I did not think of that. It would fit into the symmetrical view of the twins I have developed that would not need Aegon involved and give a strong case for Jon being one of the twins. I believe that as 3 Targaryens arrived in Westeros in the beginning so it will come full circle. The 3 children of Rhaegar would be One Male and Two Females. If Aegon was alive then that was one of the reasons (there are others) that I doubted Jon, but if it was Rhaenys who survived and not Aegon then the twins would be One Male and One Female. Something for me to think about should the baby Aegon scenario fall apart. If both Rhaenys and Aegon died then the twins theory must obviate the children all being Rhaegars and probably include Dany though I believe the Aemon question makes that sloppy. Aemon of course could die.

labor
User ID: 0394114 Apr 9th 7:23 PM
Haaruk, IIRC it was Viserys who said: "Dragon doesn't mate with beasts from the fields".

Anyway, I think that there could be a good reason for Targaryen inbreeding, besides arrogance. IMHO, being the last of the dragonlords they were trying to retain dragon-bonding abilities in their line. If I am correct then Targaryens, and their dragons had little choice about their inbreeding.
It is also quite interesting that although King Daeron indeed married an unrelated Dornish princess, one of his sons still was mad (i.e. Prince Raegel).

BTW, I don't see why all three of the heads of the dragon must be fertile... You see, Ran, some do begrudge Dany the place amongst the "three heads" ;).

Nor do I see how Princess Rhaenys could have survived - Lord Tywin knew her features and so did Jaime. They would have noticed if some other girl was killed in her stead. Besides, normally she wouldn't be considered in that great a danger as compared to the male heirs. Standard practice for unmarried usurpers was to kill all the male heirs and marry the female one... It is still not entirely clear to me why Tywin had her killed.

As to Aegon being dead - IIRC no direct quote of Martin's survives on the subject. IIRC there is some thrice-forwarded indirect quote to that end. Perhaps I'll ask GRRM as soon as we have an official word on him having completed and submitted ASOS.

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Apr 9th 7:48 PM
Daeron had to marry the Dornish princess to unify Dorne to the realm. Besides Daeron, the Targaryens have married others only when there was no one else to marry. Take Rhaegar for example. Dany wasn't born yet so he married Elia.

Dany's infertility only happened because of Mirri Maz Duur. I think Martin has said that her condition actually may be reversible.

It's clear that Dany has to be one of the three heads. Tyrion is not.

haaruk Apr 10th 3:13 AM
It's not clear to me Moreta whatever that indicates. I am willing to discard the conjecture about Rhaenys. It was tossed out for dissection because of Ran's observation (an interesting one). If Martin has not solidly stated that Aegon is dead my Twins Hypothesis with both twins female is still valid until, again, further data is available. Labor, whether Aegon or Viserys made the statement, or they both are similarly quoted in the book doesn't matter. Inbreeding is the philosophy of House Targaryen and it broke them. Of that I am certain.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 10th 4:38 AM
This is from an e-mail that Revanshe forwarded to the board from an ASoIaF mailing list, originally posted by Rania after recieving a reply from GRRM:

<< Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palacein Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >>

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.

Someone else, or maybe still Revanshe, forwarded from the same list:

I asked GRRM today about that, he said that the child from the scene is dead. I also asked whether The Song of Ice and Fire are the song of someone particular, he said that the phrase could be used in many contexts....obviously, he is hiding something :)

I don't share labor's dubiousness, because the second comment -- of A Song of Ice and Fire having multiple meanings happens to be a statement from March 17, 1999 ... exactly one day _before_ Martin confirmed that same thing, for the first time I've ever seen, at the Event Horizon Chat. So, the person definently did seem to have contacted him, and they seemed unequivocal about what GRRM said, even though they show a healthy amount of speculation concerning the second statement.

Seems clear cut to me. I don't think Revanshe would have forwarded it unless she believed what the fellow said.

As for Rhaenys surviving, and not Aegon, I've toyed with the possibility that Varys was able to save Rhaenys (replacing her, perhaps, with some poor child who looks much like Rhaenys -- one of his little birds? -- after suitable makeup tricks were put to use,) but not Aegon and Elia. It does seem that Rhaenys was all alone -- pulled out from under a bed, according to him -- and not with her mother, which is curious.

I half suspect that the issue has to do with, almost certainly, Aerys's refusal to flee, since the queen and Viserys had to be snuck out of the Red Keep (I wonder if Varys helped with that? Almost certainly.)

As to Tywin recognizing her? He hasn't seen her in well over a year or two. Children grow quickly. If she was five when she was 'killed,' she could have been three or even two, last time Tywin saw her.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 10th 6:12 AM
All right, my take on it is that the vision Dany saw was a Clue.
Not only for us, but for _her_ as well.

Dany knew that Rhaegar had two children with Elia; Aegon and Rhaenys.
She almost certainly knows that Rhaegar was into some hanky-panky with Lyanna, although she's probably fed a much rosier version of what happened by Viserys.

She also knows that she is barren (and yes, I'm convinced that she is). Someone else will have to continue the bloodline. Of the existing Dragon blooded, I don't think Aemon is, em, _capable_ of doing his manly duty anymore...which leaves us (and Dany) with Jon.

This is where it's becoming interesting.
As Dany is getting repeatedly hit over the head with the notorious Clue Stick, and begins to add Dragons and Wolves together and getting Jon as a result, Jon will be facing a conflict of duties once more - torn between oath and blood.

Adding more Targaryens into the mix effectively kills that dimension of conflict.
And considering how one _has_ to add more elements (i.e. Rhaenys or Aegon somehow surviving, maybe an unknown twin of Jon existing) that so far we have yet to see an inch of evidence for, I feel fairly confident in applying Occam's Razor here.

It is my belief that the prophecy (if there actually was one) of the 'three heads' indeed regarded Rhaegar's children - Aegon, Rhaenys and Jon. The two former being dead.

Adding Dany in this context just garbles the whole thing.
Dany will be a very powerful player in this series - but that doesn't mean all and sundry prophecies will revolve around her.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 10th 10:09 AM
Oh, BTW, Padraig...I owe you a cookie. :o)

Padraig
User ID: 1641184 Apr 10th 2:10 PM
Labor, the Starks have their bonding ability with direwolves still. The ability the Targaryens have may be different I suppose. Else they made a costly error.

Also Gregor did the actual killing and weren�t their heads bashed in? I doubt Jaime or Tywin got a chance to see them alive just before they were killed.

I don�t think Dany knows Lyanna�s name. She certainly couldn�t know it is Lyanna Stark. Not that this is a major obstacle for Dany.

I think the 3 heads of the dragon still exist. 3 dragons and 3 dragon riders seems nice and symetrical. OTOH we already had one prophecy that doesn�t look like it will happen , the Dothraki one, so maybe this 3 headed dragon thing will never come about either. I would like to know sometime what it was supposed to mean though.

KAH, when you said non-Americans you really should have said no Irish either. Its still a big deal here that Kennedy became President. Not that I�d be silly enough to say I don�t want my cookie;-)

Throfinn
User ID: 9906923 Apr 10th 3:09 PM
We do not know if any prophecy will not happen (probably will) but, not like you would think.

How old would Aegon or Rhaenys be if either were alive.

In Dany's vision there was only one child with Rheagar and Elia. Could that be a hint of who is still alive?

Could Edric Storm be Targaryen say be the slightest chance that King Robert unknowingly slept with a Targaryen? Probably not. Just wondering why the Red preistess is so intrested in him.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 10th 5:09 PM
Edric Storm is the son of Delena Florent, so there's no chance that he's Targaryen.

Aegon would be at least 16 or 17 if he lived. Rhaenys, about 20-22, I guess -- which is another point for the very looney Mairei=Rhaenys theory, which is that Mairei might well be in that age range. Nothing specific is given, really.

The one child in Dany's vision probably doesn't mean anything in itself -- it's not as if royal children were kept together at all times, and it seems that this is probably not long after the birth, as Elia is in bed at the time and probably recovering from the labor. Rhaenys would be kept under some nanny's eye elsewhere.

As to this issue of prophecies ... outside of the Dothraki prophecies, everything else we've seen has come true -- the only problem is the matter of interpretation. Jojen's greendreams are always right, what we're told by Daeron suggests his dragondreams are always right, some of Melisandre's prophetic vision has come true concerning 'Renly' smashing Stannis before KL.

I found the Dothraki manner of prophecy rather ... dubious. Melisandre clearly has magic. Jojen clearly has magic. We know Daeron's visions work, because we see one in action. But the Dothraki women?

One might argue that they must be more right than not, that there's some magic involved, but then one has to argue that the extremely vague prophecies of the oracle at Delphi were gotten by 'magic' -- despite the fact that we only ever hear of the handful that came out 'right' (by extensive interpretation) against the hundreds we never hear of that probably came out wrong (because one god or another was not appeased as he should have been, no doubt).

That the old Dothraki seeresses made a very specific prophecy probably has very much to do with the fact that Drogo is the most powerful khal that the Dothraki plains have probably _ever_ seen. It only follows suit that his son will inherit his strength, and expand on it, to 'mount the world.'

I'm not ruling out magic, but if there is magic involved then I doubt the prophecy was wrong. It's just not going to be fulfilled in a fashion we imagine (such as the crazy theory someone put forward that Rhaego's 'essence' was absorbed into one of the dragon eggs, explaining the stillbirth of the half-dragon baby.)

haaruk Apr 12th 11:23 AM
"kills the dimension of conflict" Kah? I hope Martin knows that. So if he deviates from your prospectus the series is compromised? I don't think so.

Kah you made the comment that if the color of Meera's eyes were important Martin would have mentioned them. Wrong. Reread the Hedge Knight. When Dunk first meets Egg Martin gives a good description of the naked and wet boy. Martin does not mention his eyes though for a reason. Not until their second meeting and after they have a night in the meadow does Martin release the final clue to what we already suspected. That Egg had "blue eyes, very dark almost purple".

Martin offers clues for the convenience of the story and not always the reader. Whether or not the color of Meera's eyes are important remains to be learned.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 12th 12:30 PM
Haaruk;

It _does_ kill that particular dimension of conflict, yes.

If Jon is not the lone Targaryen-blooded guy able to breed, he will not have to face any moral conflict there, because he will not be of (much) interest to Dany anymore - she'll have a substitute Targaryen.

Of course, he might certainly introduce some _other_ dimension of conflict with that supposed twin of Jon's...and this is your cue to suggest what that dimension would be (since I'm curious). :o)

As for the eyes of Meera, I will eat my words...halfway, at least.

Bran _did_ mention Jojen's eyes...so it would be a bit strange that he didn't look to see if Meera's eyes also were 'strange'.

OTOH, it could be that Jojen's super-green eyes were so particular that Meera's eyes didn't look strange at all in comparison - and that that is the reason Bran wouldn't notice.

Also, even if Meera's eyes isn't anything special, it does not necessarily rule her out as being Jon's twin. Jon hasn't got all that particular eyes either (or does he? - I misremember).

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 12th 12:39 PM
Jon has grey eyes, as Ned and Lyanna had.

Obviously, for Meera to remain a possible contender as Lyanna's child by Rhaegar, she'll need grey eyes as well, or something blue-violet. Probably rather more blue than purple, all considered.

haaruk Apr 12th 1:40 PM
Kah, the 'dimension of conflict' is in your imagination as a possiblility, not in the story. 'Not be of much interest to Dany anymore'? Jon is of no interest to her now. She doesn't even know him. He doesn't know her. What conflict?

Understand that I advance Meera as a possibility not a probability. I theorize though that she is Jojen's adopted or half sister.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 12th 3:23 PM
Haaruk;

Yeah, it is only a possibility, but I have at least made a rationalization for why GRRM might put the series in that direction.

This is not a new idea of mine - it should be somewhere on this board (unless it dates from Dragonstone..I misremember), but I will repeat it here.

Dany wants the throne, because she is the last living Targaryen - she thinks of herself as the Queen now, as her father was King once - she believes that she inherits the Iron Throne from him, and that it is her right and duty to keep the
Targaryen blood line going.

Only, she can't have kids, so what is it all good for?
The line will die out with her - she might as well not have invaded in the first place; it is all for nought.
Mirri Maz Duur will have had her revenge.

The only way to keep the blood line going, is to find someone else of Targaryen blood, make that person have a child, and raise that child as the new heir to the Iron Throne.

Of course, among the known other living Targaryen-blooded, we have only Aemon and Jon. Aemon can't have kids, so Dany's stuck with Jon.
Jon has, as a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn not to father any kids, so here is where the dimension of conflict kicks in...

Dany certainly doesn't know diddly-squat about Jon right now, but are you willing to bet anything that that is going to continue through the whole series?

But if there is a twin that is not under the obligation Jon is, Dany does not need Jon anymore (unless this twin for some reason can't have kids), and so the dimension of conflict is killed.

So, there's my rationalization. I'm _assuming_ that you have a rationalization for your theory...

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 12th 3:42 PM
I shouldn't be shocked if one or two of the "three heads" of the dragon are killed in the course of the series. ;)

And, obviously, the new dimension might be this: the best way to re-establish the Targaryen line is to return to Targaryen standards -- Jon needs to father a kid by his actual sister, in other words. ;)

Another plus the Meera theory, in this context: she reacted sourly when Jojen insisted again that the green dreams never lie. I believe Bran referred to it being 'defiant.' I've got a sneaky suspicion that this has to do with a green dream he had told her about, that had to do with her. Perhaps marriage? She's enough of a tom boy that it wouldn't please her.

Of course, she could simply have been defiant because the cause of his comment was her denying that he knew when he would die.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 12th 3:55 PM
Ran;

Heh, I didn't even consider that. :o)

I suppose I can't rule out Jon schtupping his sister, but it would feel a bit weird... :P

Maybe Dany finds out about Jon and Meera, and (without telling them, of course) tries to orchestrate something romantical between them...
I have to think about that one a bit.

Padraig
User ID: 0373644 Apr 12th 4:25 PM
Interesting idea but I would find it weird too if the Targaryens have to turn to incest again to get the Targaryen line back on track. That is one of the superior attitudes I dislike about them.

haaruk Apr 16th 4:26 PM
Ran establishing that Martin says the child in Dany's vision is dead and was Aegon means that my twins hypothesis has to be modified. Labor's belief that Rhaegar was wrong about that child being the 'one promised' then seems valid. By extension the 3 heads of the Dragon could not be exclusively the children of Rhaegar.

To get the Targaryen's 'on track' I belief incest has to removed as a staple of their philosophy.

Fitz
User ID: 2017574 May 11th 4:32 PM
I think, in fact, that it's incest that will get them back on track. It is the way of the Targaryens, and though there were some psychological deficiencies, they weren't physically f*cked up, but I could be wrong. Look at Aemon... he lived to be more than 100 years old, and if his genes were so bad from incest, you could have fooled me. Jon+Dany=Targaryens come alive.

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