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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Beauty and the Beast III

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Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 4th 6:17 PM
Labor,

Is she twelve? I thought she was 12 at the start of the CoK, which covers about a year. So .. she's late 12, at the very least, and in that case -- well, that's practically the same as 13. ;)

And no, we don't see any other such marriages, but we see a very small number of marriages in relation to the total that have gone on in Westeros in the last few thousands of years. So, I leave open the possibility that political marriages involving extreme youths have happened and aren't unheard of (but rare and probably seen as pure politics.)

haaruk Oct 4th 6:45 PM
Sansa is 13 at the end of ACOK. Joff is the king I was referring to Ran. I believe he discussed children with Sansa after Robert's death.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Oct 4th 7:11 PM

We never hear about Sansa's 13th namesday in ACOK, haaruk, so she is 12. Arya has recently turned 10 at the time she speaks with Roose Bolton, and Sansa is 2 years her senior. Also, IIRC Joff is 1 year Sansa's senior and he didn't turn 14 in ACOK.

haaruk Oct 4th 8:20 PM
You are correct, Labor. Sansa's 13th nameday is never mentioned. Thanks for the correction.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 5th 3:23 AM
Twelve or thirteen... the basic point of that discussion really is that we see Westeros through our modern glasses. For us, it seems not only unusual, but criminal that a twentysomething man like Sandor should be physically attracted by a girl of twelve. This might be perfectly right for our time, but it does not count for Westeros.

We are picking nits here, fighting about the usual marriage age as 12 or 15 or older. It does not really matter. It was young, younger as it is now for sure. I believe with Haaruk that Martin follows the medieval codices which _allow_ marriage from the first flowering or from the age of ten to twelve.

As Ran said very clearly, it's difficult. Concerning Sansa, Ned and Robert _felt_ they should wait with the marriage. Cersei thought otherwise. I think that a marriage this early was not forbiddedn, and that just Ned as a loving father would have _liked_ to procrastinate it.

Anyway: I still believe that Sandor did not _lust_ for Sansa in that way before, and that such a feeling only may be creeping into him since the very last chapter, a feeling he cannot interprete clearly himself yet.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Oct 5th 7:30 AM
Sansa somehow connects with Sandor on a personal level (duende?). That hasn't happened since he was a child, or perhaps it never happened at all..

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 5th 8:02 AM
Well, I do not think that this _prevents_ him from ever seeing her as an attractive woman. I think he might sooner or later. But I also think that this has not happened before, and perhaps only started. He may not even be aware of it yet.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 6th 9:25 AM
I received a response from Mr. Martin today on my question about the propriety of a sexual/romantic relationship between Sansa and Sandor. The way I read it, Sandor is a pervert if he was interested in Sansa sexually prior to her flowering. After flowering, she would become a little more "fair game", but many Westerosi would still think she was too young. Sixteen is considered the most appropriate age. But judge for yourselves:

In a message dated 9/27/99 12:27:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot
topic
on Revanche's board. Sansa's youth has been one focus of the discussion.
What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships
involving a girl of Sansa's age and level of physical maturity?>>

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The
same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one
is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in
older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding
and bedding.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a
somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other
words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their
first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to
bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally
weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will
wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very
young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth,
which the maesters will have noted.

As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly
earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a
result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier.

There are plenty of exceptions.

>>>>>So, that's Mr. Martin's view. Ran, I'll be sending a copy of this to you for inclusion in the So Spake Martin collection.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 6th 9:38 AM
Which does not really tell us wether the one or the other of us is right. For as I said before: I do not think that Sandor kusted for Sansa before the flowering, and may only start to experience those feelings.

So if a physical relationship between the two arose, you could say: Quite extraordinary, but not pervert and not illegal either.

Is that it?

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 6th 10:21 AM
You could, I suppose. I would certainly agree that Sandor isn't a pervert if he hasn't lusted after Sansa. But that's almost a tautology. We still need an explanation for why he expressed so much interest in Sansa _before_ her flowering because her flowering didn't even occur until near the end of ACOS. I think that is really the key to understanding that relationship.

I read Mr. Martin's response as saying that Sansa still would be viewed as a child/maiden even after her flowering. Lusting after her a week after she flowered still seems to me to be outside the norms of Westerosi society. Still the "innocent, beloved of the singers." So, if Sandor's lusting for Sansa now, he's a pervert. :-))

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Oct 6th 10:27 AM
I have never considered Sandor's feelings toward Sansa as "lusting". I think he's drawn to her for reasons he cannot himself comprehend. To him, there's something magical about the way she conducts herself as a woman-child. This could produce a flashback to his sister, or to himself, at a younger age. I'm not certain. But it's not love and it's not lust, it's "magnetism" of a sort. Am I being too cryptic, Min?

Ami
User ID: 8666863 Oct 6th 10:36 AM
I can't believe how much I missed in two days!!

Well, Min, why is it that you and I,(among others) can see that Sandor didn't necessarily lust for her?

Or maybe I should be asking Jeff, what makes you think he lusted for her pre-pubescent? The first indication of the sort is not until CoK when he notices that she's becoming woman, BUT then says "not quite, you're still a stupid little bird.." or something of the sort. In GoT, it wasn't IMHO, lust that made him stop in the middle of a field and tell her about his scars. It was simply because she was trying to make nice small talk about his "evil" brother.
:)

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 6th 10:54 AM
Oh well. I think I tried to explain so very many times why I think Sandor opened to Sansa that I really do not feel like telling it all over again. Besides, you know my point, Jeff. :-)

Ami
User ID: 8666863 Oct 6th 11:02 AM
I hear ya, girl!

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Oct 6th 12:05 PM
It has always been my position that Sandor has not desired Sansa sexually and that his attraction to her is based upon other factors entirely. They must be exceedingly strong factors to make him respond as he has.

To me, the strength of those factors means that they must remain dominant if the course of their relationship is to remain credible. I'm not the one who thinks this relationship will go in a sexual/romantic direction. But others do. My point is that if it turns out to be a sexual relationship, then the liklihood that it had its genesis at Sansa's prepubescent age is significant. That's rather perverted, as I see it. I'd always have the feeling that he was "scoping her out" when she was 12. Yech.

Padraig
User ID: 9551723 Oct 6th 2:56 PM
Hmm. I would like to think that if the relationship between Sansa and Sandor turns romantic then we will see a definite point in which it did. Certainly I don't get a sense that there was anything romantic in their relationship in aGoT. It would be somewhat icky if there was. This might have changed in aCoK but I think it is too early to say. I don't have any real problem with a romantic relationship between the two if it develops that way even if Sandor happened to Sansa before puperty. That's all they were then strange acquaintances. Fair enough

Ami
User ID: 9732463 Oct 7th 1:47 AM
That's cool, Jeff. You actually sorta answered my post before I posted it, but I appreciate the response. It actually sounds like you mostly agree, except for the "scoping her out" bobbity. ;) It would be significant if it happened that way, I just don't think it did...

haaruk Oct 10th 12:27 PM
A 'pervert'? Interesting Jeff. 'Lusts'? 'Scoping'? Negative connotations of course. Again, no evidence. Yet you lay a fundamental premise.

If Sandor and Sansa engage in a romantic relationship later in the series then Sandor must have been 'scoping' her out. Are you serious? You just don't like the idea of Sandor and Sansa. Period. You then establish parameters to denigrate his character on the flimsiest of evidence. You said once that you found the character and the discussion around him uninteresting. Yet you seem constantly drawn to it. Fixated. Almost exclusively from the sexual perspective.

Fine. In your opinion if Sansa and Sandor become romantically involvled then Sandor has established himself as a pervert. He must have been 'scoping'. On what basis do you establish the criteria for this mind crime? What is its statute of limitations? 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years from now, and they become lovers, Sandor is still a pervert? Your logic reminds me of a Hannibal Lecter quote in the novel RED DRAGON.

So Jeff, we are dealing with what your imagination has decreed morally reprehensible. A mind crime if you will. Shades of Orwell.

When a young woman begins to flower. Begins to manifest the physical and subltle (or not so subtle) characteristics of sexual maturity I notice. Perhaps you don't but I do. The breasts become larger, the buttocks more rounded, the lips fuller, the eyes less direct but more intense. She may even be under 16 years of age. She may begin wearing makeup, applying perfume, dressing provocatively. Sometimes her age may not be obvious. She may learn the dance of the coquette. I notice. Perhaps some men do not see the obvious. I most certainly do. If it is there I see it. A crime? Nature does not care about man made law. When it is time for a woman to bloom and a man to take notice it happens. Convict God if you have a problem with that fact. No laws broken. Does my noticing make me a pervert? Well. I can fight that battle also.

haaruk Oct 10th 12:59 PM
Opinions for Sandor's interest in Sansa have been many and varied. From child molesting tendencies, a sister resemblance, to natural magnetism. My belief is that Sansa has a natural empathy that is obvious and well defined. She has a gift that I have seen before. She is a natural confidante. She has a charismatic personality. Intimacy and empathy are her advantages. Sandor is instinctively aware of this. Not only that, it is something he needs desperately.

An interesting scene in AGOT that I have mentioned before. At the tourney Sansa beseeches her father not to let Gregor harm Loras before their tilt. Gregor of course later attempts to decapitate DeCaprio. Eddard is helpless to do anything. It is Sandor who uncharacteristically comes to Loras's aid. He acts the true knight. It is Sandor who fulfills Sansa's unheard supplication. Their relationship truly begins from that moment. It may become as eerie a connection as the Stark's and their Wolves.

I truly hope they do not become lovers. But not for Jeff's reasons. Extend their parameters of experience. Make their relationship original and thought provoking. A connection deep and primordial. Fiercer than romance. As perfect as love.

haaruk Oct 10th 3:08 PM
Reviewing the Sandor and Sansa interactions in AGOT and ACOK. The first time they come into physical contact is on the journey to Kings Landing. She is terrified of Ilyn Payne and inadvertently bumps into Sandor who is behind her. I thought at first that Martin was attempting to symbolize her situation as being between "a rock and a hard place". Now I know he meant something different. From there on Sandor does not seek Sansa out until their final scene in ACOK unless ordered to by Joffrey.

It was Joffrey who ordered Sandor to accompany Sansa after the tourney. That was the time Sandor began to confide in Sansa. Her gift of empathy, his need for a confidante began to assert itself in the relationship. Sansa says of Gregor "He is no true knight". Sandor agrees. Though he disdains knights the next day he acts the part.

Sandor never seeks Sansa out (that we are aware) unless so ordered. When they meet at the castle it seems to be by coincidence (as when he saved her from falling one evening). That is conjecture. Yet I have no evidence to believe otherwise. During the duration 3 instances of such meetings seem to have occurred that have been recordered, but I did not reread the books to find out. Yet, the fact is , his initial interaction with Sansa at the tourney was at Joffrey's behest.Can this be construed as having a perverted interest in a child who has not menstruated? Does speaking or confiding in an eleven year old denote a sexually perverted interest? Sandor has many damning faults. I don't believe sexual molestation is one of them.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 4th 6:17 PM Labor, Is she twelve? I thought she was 12 at the start of the CoK, which covers about a year. So .. she's late 12, at the very least, and in that case -- well, that's practically the same as 13. ;) And no, we don't see any other such marriages, but we see a very small number of marriages in relation to the total that have gone on in Westeros in the last few thousands of years. So, I leave open the possibility that political marriages involving extreme youths have happened and aren't unheard of (but rare and probably seen as pure politics.)
haaruk	Oct 4th 6:45 PM Sansa is 13 at the end of ACOK. Joff is the king I was referring to Ran. I believe he discussed children with Sansa after Robert's death.
labor User ID: 8479113	Oct 4th 7:11 PM We never hear about Sansa's 13th namesday in ACOK, haaruk, so she is 12. Arya has recently turned 10 at the time she speaks with Roose Bolton, and Sansa is 2 years her senior. Also, IIRC Joff is 1 year Sansa's senior and he didn't turn 14 in ACOK.
haaruk	Oct 4th 8:20 PM You are correct, Labor. Sansa's 13th nameday is never mentioned. Thanks for the correction.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 5th 3:23 AM Twelve or thirteen... the basic point of that discussion really is that we see Westeros through our modern glasses. For us, it seems not only unusual, but criminal that a twentysomething man like Sandor should be physically attracted by a girl of twelve. This might be perfectly right for our time, but it does not count for Westeros. We are picking nits here, fighting about the usual marriage age as 12 or 15 or older. It does not really matter. It was young, younger as it is now for sure. I believe with Haaruk that Martin follows the medieval codices which _allow_ marriage from the first flowering or from the age of ten to twelve. As Ran said very clearly, it's difficult. Concerning Sansa, Ned and Robert _felt_ they should wait with the marriage. Cersei thought otherwise. I think that a marriage this early was not forbiddedn, and that just Ned as a loving father would have _liked_ to procrastinate it. Anyway: I still believe that Sandor did not _lust_ for Sansa in that way before, and that such a feeling only may be creeping into him since the very last chapter, a feeling he cannot interprete clearly himself yet.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Oct 5th 7:30 AM Sansa somehow connects with Sandor on a personal level (duende?). That hasn't happened since he was a child, or perhaps it never happened at all..
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 5th 8:02 AM Well, I do not think that this _prevents_ him from ever seeing her as an attractive woman. I think he might sooner or later. But I also think that this has not happened before, and perhaps only started. He may not even be aware of it yet.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 6th 9:25 AM I received a response from Mr. Martin today on my question about the propriety of a sexual/romantic relationship between Sansa and Sandor. The way I read it, Sandor is a pervert if he was interested in Sansa sexually prior to her flowering. After flowering, she would become a little more "fair game", but many Westerosi would still think she was too young. Sixteen is considered the most appropriate age. But judge for yourselves: In a message dated 9/27/99 12:27:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanche's board. Sansa's youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa's age and level of physical maturity?>> A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us. However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding. A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers. In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood. Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted. As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier. There are plenty of exceptions. >>>>>So, that's Mr. Martin's view. Ran, I'll be sending a copy of this to you for inclusion in the So Spake Martin collection.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 6th 9:38 AM Which does not really tell us wether the one or the other of us is right. For as I said before: I do not think that Sandor kusted for Sansa before the flowering, and may only start to experience those feelings. So if a physical relationship between the two arose, you could say: Quite extraordinary, but not pervert and not illegal either. Is that it?
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 6th 10:21 AM You could, I suppose. I would certainly agree that Sandor isn't a pervert if he hasn't lusted after Sansa. But that's almost a tautology. We still need an explanation for why he expressed so much interest in Sansa _before_ her flowering because her flowering didn't even occur until near the end of ACOS. I think that is really the key to understanding that relationship. I read Mr. Martin's response as saying that Sansa still would be viewed as a child/maiden even after her flowering. Lusting after her a week after she flowered still seems to me to be outside the norms of Westerosi society. Still the "innocent, beloved of the singers." So, if Sandor's lusting for Sansa now, he's a pervert. :-))
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Oct 6th 10:27 AM I have never considered Sandor's feelings toward Sansa as "lusting". I think he's drawn to her for reasons he cannot himself comprehend. To him, there's something magical about the way she conducts herself as a woman-child. This could produce a flashback to his sister, or to himself, at a younger age. I'm not certain. But it's not love and it's not lust, it's "magnetism" of a sort. Am I being too cryptic, Min?
Ami User ID: 8666863	Oct 6th 10:36 AM I can't believe how much I missed in two days!! Well, Min, why is it that you and I,(among others) can see that Sandor didn't necessarily lust for her? Or maybe I should be asking Jeff, what makes you think he lusted for her pre-pubescent? The first indication of the sort is not until CoK when he notices that she's becoming woman, BUT then says "not quite, you're still a stupid little bird.." or something of the sort. In GoT, it wasn't IMHO, lust that made him stop in the middle of a field and tell her about his scars. It was simply because she was trying to make nice small talk about his "evil" brother. :)
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 6th 10:54 AM Oh well. I think I tried to explain so very many times why I think Sandor opened to Sansa that I really do not feel like telling it all over again. Besides, you know my point, Jeff. :-)
Ami User ID: 8666863	Oct 6th 11:02 AM I hear ya, girl!
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Oct 6th 12:05 PM It has always been my position that Sandor has not desired Sansa sexually and that his attraction to her is based upon other factors entirely. They must be exceedingly strong factors to make him respond as he has. To me, the strength of those factors means that they must remain dominant if the course of their relationship is to remain credible. I'm not the one who thinks this relationship will go in a sexual/romantic direction. But others do. My point is that if it turns out to be a sexual relationship, then the liklihood that it had its genesis at Sansa's prepubescent age is significant. That's rather perverted, as I see it. I'd always have the feeling that he was "scoping her out" when she was 12. Yech.
Padraig User ID: 9551723	Oct 6th 2:56 PM Hmm. I would like to think that if the relationship between Sansa and Sandor turns romantic then we will see a definite point in which it did. Certainly I don't get a sense that there was anything romantic in their relationship in aGoT. It would be somewhat icky if there was. This might have changed in aCoK but I think it is too early to say. I don't have any real problem with a romantic relationship between the two if it develops that way even if Sandor happened to Sansa before puperty. That's all they were then strange acquaintances. Fair enough
Ami User ID: 9732463	Oct 7th 1:47 AM That's cool, Jeff. You actually sorta answered my post before I posted it, but I appreciate the response. It actually sounds like you mostly agree, except for the "scoping her out" bobbity. ;) It would be significant if it happened that way, I just don't think it did...
haaruk	Oct 10th 12:27 PM A 'pervert'? Interesting Jeff. 'Lusts'? 'Scoping'? Negative connotations of course. Again, no evidence. Yet you lay a fundamental premise. If Sandor and Sansa engage in a romantic relationship later in the series then Sandor must have been 'scoping' her out. Are you serious? You just don't like the idea of Sandor and Sansa. Period. You then establish parameters to denigrate his character on the flimsiest of evidence. You said once that you found the character and the discussion around him uninteresting. Yet you seem constantly drawn to it. Fixated. Almost exclusively from the sexual perspective. Fine. In your opinion if Sansa and Sandor become romantically involvled then Sandor has established himself as a pervert. He must have been 'scoping'. On what basis do you establish the criteria for this mind crime? What is its statute of limitations? 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years from now, and they become lovers, Sandor is still a pervert? Your logic reminds me of a Hannibal Lecter quote in the novel RED DRAGON. So Jeff, we are dealing with what your imagination has decreed morally reprehensible. A mind crime if you will. Shades of Orwell. When a young woman begins to flower. Begins to manifest the physical and subltle (or not so subtle) characteristics of sexual maturity I notice. Perhaps you don't but I do. The breasts become larger, the buttocks more rounded, the lips fuller, the eyes less direct but more intense. She may even be under 16 years of age. She may begin wearing makeup, applying perfume, dressing provocatively. Sometimes her age may not be obvious. She may learn the dance of the coquette. I notice. Perhaps some men do not see the obvious. I most certainly do. If it is there I see it. A crime? Nature does not care about man made law. When it is time for a woman to bloom and a man to take notice it happens. Convict God if you have a problem with that fact. No laws broken. Does my noticing make me a pervert? Well. I can fight that battle also.
haaruk	Oct 10th 12:59 PM Opinions for Sandor's interest in Sansa have been many and varied. From child molesting tendencies, a sister resemblance, to natural magnetism. My belief is that Sansa has a natural empathy that is obvious and well defined. She has a gift that I have seen before. She is a natural confidante. She has a charismatic personality. Intimacy and empathy are her advantages. Sandor is instinctively aware of this. Not only that, it is something he needs desperately. An interesting scene in AGOT that I have mentioned before. At the tourney Sansa beseeches her father not to let Gregor harm Loras before their tilt. Gregor of course later attempts to decapitate DeCaprio. Eddard is helpless to do anything. It is Sandor who uncharacteristically comes to Loras's aid. He acts the true knight. It is Sandor who fulfills Sansa's unheard supplication. Their relationship truly begins from that moment. It may become as eerie a connection as the Stark's and their Wolves. I truly hope they do not become lovers. But not for Jeff's reasons. Extend their parameters of experience. Make their relationship original and thought provoking. A connection deep and primordial. Fiercer than romance. As perfect as love.
haaruk	Oct 10th 3:08 PM Reviewing the Sandor and Sansa interactions in AGOT and ACOK. The first time they come into physical contact is on the journey to Kings Landing. She is terrified of Ilyn Payne and inadvertently bumps into Sandor who is behind her. I thought at first that Martin was attempting to symbolize her situation as being between "a rock and a hard place". Now I know he meant something different. From there on Sandor does not seek Sansa out until their final scene in ACOK unless ordered to by Joffrey. It was Joffrey who ordered Sandor to accompany Sansa after the tourney. That was the time Sandor began to confide in Sansa. Her gift of empathy, his need for a confidante began to assert itself in the relationship. Sansa says of Gregor "He is no true knight". Sandor agrees. Though he disdains knights the next day he acts the part. Sandor never seeks Sansa out (that we are aware) unless so ordered. When they meet at the castle it seems to be by coincidence (as when he saved her from falling one evening). That is conjecture. Yet I have no evidence to believe otherwise. During the duration 3 instances of such meetings seem to have occurred that have been recordered, but I did not reread the books to find out. Yet, the fact is , his initial interaction with Sansa at the tourney was at Joffrey's behest.Can this be construed as having a perverted interest in a child who has not menstruated? Does speaking or confiding in an eleven year old denote a sexually perverted interest? Sandor has many damning faults. I don't believe sexual molestation is one of them.