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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jaime Lannister II

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Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 12th 4:07 AM
The Kingslayer...
Will he be able to change in future books?
What will Catelyn do to him?
Does he love Cersei? Tyrion?
Does he loath himself or does he just put his family above everything?

Many questions.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 12th 4:13 AM
the two last posts:
****************
Ran
User ID: 0283314
Oct 11th 1:43 PM
KAH,
It's midnight. The singing's stopped. People are
drunk out of their school and the castle is no
doubt mostly asleep.
Interesting that she called for midnight to go see
him. ;)
Brienne could certainly deal with the gaoler (the
only guard, and he's a small and drunk man ATM)
and help her get Jaime through the castle to
escape. She's strong enough to, for instance, get the Water Gate open and drop Jaime in a boat to escape on the Tumblestone.

Padraig,
The thing with Jon is, he started trying to imagine Robb's reaction . . . and he couldn't see Robb being happy to see him. In fact, I think I recall him
even considering the possibility that Robb would
be forced to kill him as a deserter of the Night's
Watch.

Same with Jaime, but 100 times worse. He's much
more well-known than Jon. How many beautifully
masculine blonde, green-eyed knights do you
have in the Seven Kingdoms? Once word runs
south of his desertion, it only needs one misstep
to have his head off.

Of course, he might risk it. That's Jaime. But I'm
sure he'll know the danger he's putting himself
into, when he basically turns _everyone_ against
him.

Heck, for the sake of house honor, even Tywin
might consider publically showing his commitment
to the ancient institution (yeah, right -- a slim
chance, but still, Tywin'll know the danger of
arboring a fugitive of the Night's Watch.)

****************
labor
User ID: 8479113
Oct 11th 2:54 PM

Yes, Ran, there is a big question about just how
much disgrace Tywin would be willing to load on
his House to protect his children. It all depends on whether he has some deeply hidden emotional
attachment to them. If he hasn't, he may by now
be sufficiently annoyed with them to consider
executing Jaime if he flouts the NightWatch vows.
Or even to consider getting himself rid of both
Jaime and Cersei, even if they don't commit any
additional offences.You can only bend the
customs/laws only so far before you sustain a
serious damage in return.

However, I don't think that Jaime would ever
swear the NightWatch vows to Catelyn. He sees
NightWatch as ridiculous and he would rather be
dead or a prisoner, than laughable. Lannister pride, you know.

*************
Two messages, one of Kay and one of Haaruk, were lost when the thread broke down...

doctor doom
User ID: 1509104 Oct 12th 10:06 AM
This is possibly the biggest question of the series so far. What did Catelyn do to Jamie? I have many theories on the subject, but only one a believe is probable. Catelyn is going to make Jamie swear some oath to either her or the Night's Watch. Let me tell you why. I honesty don't believe that Catelyn is going to murder Jamie, despite how pissed she is at him for attempting to kill Bran. Catelyn is not that type of person, but I believe that her reasoning goes beyond her personality. I think that Catelyn is going to use Jamie to discover the identity of the person who sent that assassin to kill Bran. Jamie told her the truth about Tyrion's knife and all fingers point to Littlefinger (but I don't know). I know a few people who believe that it was actually Jamie who sent the assassin, but I don't buy it. Plus, for all his arrogance, I believe that Jamie does have honor in him...a strange outlook on that honor, but honor nonetheless. He murdered the mad king Aerys, only when he realized that the man couldn't be saved and he was detroying the kingdom. Now many of you will probably say that he did it for his own personal power gain, but when Ned enters the castle, Jamie grants him the throne and makes a snide comment about how uncomfortable it is. He easily could have battled Ned, since Jamie had Lannister forces in King's Landing. He gave it up because it wasn't his to keep. So, I think that Jamie's either going to be firced to swear to Catelyn (possibly through the threat of her revealing the incest claim) or going North to the Night's Watch.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Oct 12th 10:43 AM
In my last post I said this (more or less);

'I hate to admit it, but Ran has a point about it being midnight'. And then I wrote something more, which I can't recall.

Doom's suggestion of Cat using Jaime to find the real plotter is kind of intriguing, although I'm not sure if it is enough for her to release him.
Perhaps combined with an oath to free Sansa, even if it means crossing his father.

Jeez, seems I'm beginning to succumb to this loony theory myself. :P

Telisiane
User ID: 9719083 Oct 12th 7:25 PM
I initially rejected the notion that Cat would free Jaime, thinking "How could she be that stupid to trust him, after he just indicated how conflicted/meaningless his oaths are to him?" Then I realized that almost nothing she has done to date has made any sense to me, so why not?

One idea I've been toying with is the idea of Jaime changing sides and giving Catelyn a reason to trust him. One event that could result in this is if Tywin decides to get rid of Joffrey because he is not easily controlled, and in the process somehow kills Cersei, who would defend Joffrey to the death. I'd like to see a Jaime freed from both Cersei and his father. Cersei's death by Tywin's hand might do this, and allow Catelyn to free Jaime with an easier conscience.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 12th 7:38 PM
If this happens, there's no way the scene we're seeing is going to lead to that.

As I said, I think the point is that there shouldn't be any real conflict under most conditions. It's a clear win-win situation for himself and the Lannisters. Returning Sansa unharmed is a small price for the Northerners packing it in.

Also, I did a big analysis of this on the new board, and I noted that Cat came in looking for honor in him -- and finding little. On the other hand, she came in thinking Tyrion a liar, and she learns in the course of the interrogation that in fact he is probably trustworthy. So it balances out -- if Jaime were honorable and Tyrion was untrustworthy, deal; if Jaime were not very honorable but Tyrion was trustworthy, deal.

As KAH, I think, pointed out -- the big problem is that Tyrion is no longer Hand, and indeed may now be out of favor. Tywin isn't obligated to hold to what Tyrion said.

It _is_ 'senseless,' if senseless is throwing away the last chance for a victory. But given what she's gone through, and given what she's predicting, I think it's practically the only thing she can do if she's to continue her duty to her family.

haaruk Oct 13th 0:29 AM
If your theory isn't correct perhaps it should be Ran. It has beautiful symmetry and drama. Catelyn seeking honor from a man who's soul secretly craves it. Frustrated, desperate and soul sick her instincts embrace the unthinkable. Jaime shamed and amazed. Brienne as witness. Robb and Karstark's rage. The poetic justice and the irony. Jaime almost kills her son then attempts to save the life of her daughter. Catelyn kidnaps the innocent brother and starts a war. Then frees the guilty brother in an attempt to end it. Perfect symmetry. It has my vote.

labor
User ID: 8785553 Oct 13th 2:33 AM

Couldn't have said it better, Haaruk. I may misunderstand Theon and not fully appreciate Sandor, but we do agree on this.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 13th 4:20 AM
And it has mine. In GRRM's books, justice leads to evil, as in Stannis doings, and injustice leads to peace, as in Catelyn's doings. Nothing is safe. Nothing is sure.

doctor doom
User ID: 0449874 Oct 13th 11:22 AM
Whomever mentioned the possibility that Tywin is going to kill Cersie and that would force Jamie to go against his father is very perceptive. I (not as perceptive) never thought of that and could see it happening. Although I don't think Jamie really cares too much for Joffery, he would flip out if anything happened to Cersie (or Tyrion for that matter) and it looks like Tywin is going to begin cleaning house at King's Landing.

Padraig
User ID: 1905964 Oct 13th 1:28 PM
Hmm. Did Catelyn see in Jaime a man that secretly craves honour? If she did then she could have no problem in releasing him. I think it is very possible. Whether that means she sees what she wants to see or she truly is a reasonable person is another question.

Well if Tywin does kill Cersei then he would make Jaime an enemy but I can't see it happen. Except if she was behind Tyrions attempted assasination and Tywin learns this. Even then to kill your own daughter? Harsh.

Telisiane
User ID: 9719083 Oct 14th 1:49 AM
My problem with Catelyn freeing Jaime immediately is that she was clearly disgusted and furious with his answers to her questions during the interrogation scene. Is it possible she was furious and frustrated because she knew that she would have to free him? Possibly.

I like your idea, Haruuk. For Catelyn to free Jaime WOULD result in a nice symmetry. And in doing so, she would likely lose the trust of her son - another tragedy for her to deal with.

When I said that I thought Tywin could kill Cersei, I meant to imply that it would be accidental. I CAN see Tywin trying to get rid of Joffrey, and that Cersei might sacrifice herself to save Joffrey. I don't really think that Tywin would plot to kill Cersei unless she absolutely defied him and tried to undermine his power as the Hand.

doctor doom
User ID: 1056474 Oct 14th 10:33 AM
Cersei get mad at her father attempting to undermine her power? Cersei is the rightful Queen of the kingdom until Joffery get married, and she's had her authority undermined by Tyrion and now Tywin is going to be pretty much running the show in King's Landing. So, Cersei certainly has something to be pissed off about and she just might get sick and tired of playing second (or third) fiddle and attempt to regain some of her power through treachery. She's real good at that.

labor
User ID: 8785553 Oct 14th 10:47 AM

But what else could Cersei expect when she named Tywin Hand? Certainly she couldn't know him so little that she believed that he would actually obey her?
I would like to repeat that IMHO whether Tywin decides to kill his children or not depends on his presence or absence of emotional attachment to them and on how seriously he takes the Kinslaying taboo. Almost anyone in Westeros, no matter how evil, except outright psychos seems to adhere to the taboo quite strictly. Cersei seems to walk the line on the issue (i.e. Tyrion thinks that she would be ready to off Lancel). But you never know with Tywin... If he does, then he won't kill Joff either, although I see him knowing about the plot to murder him and doing nothing. Besides, he'll want Joff to live long enough to produce a joint Lannister-Tyrell heir.

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Oct 14th 12:29 PM
Telisiane, Catelyn should know that she will hardly get a better chance to release him. Which as you say would make her frustrated because what she heard was not very friendly. The thing is she is going to do something with that drated sword.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Oct 14th 3:04 PM
Labor - I do believe that Tywin would kill Joffrey if he determined that Joffrey is stupid, headstrong, and a liability to Lannister power. I believe that he is that ruthless. He always has Tommen, a pliable, sweet boy, waiting in the wings, and what's one more husband for Margeary, espcially if the one she's gonna get is cruel and spoiled? I think Margeary is destined to be the most often-married woman in Westeros. Perhaps all 4 or 5 weddings in ASoS will be hers! ;0)

Padraig - The more I think about Haruuk's idea, the more I like it. I do continue to disagree with the idea that Catelyn believes that Jaime would keep a vow to her. But I accept the idea that she would release him in a symbolic gesture to end the war. Since she started the war by kidnapping Tyrion - by all accounts an innocent man - I could understand her reasoning that releasing Jaime is to be her penance. So cheers to Haruuk, who came up with an idea for Jaime's release that I can live with. I now have great hopes for the Jaime Lannister POV in ASoS! =0)

labor
User ID: 8785553 Oct 14th 3:47 PM

Teleisane, only a joint heir (or at least a joint royal child) can really make the Lannister-Tyrell alliance permanent. I am sure that Tywin is aware of this. Tommen won't be able to produce one for 4-5 years at least yet. So, even if Tywin is game about breaking the kinslaying taboo (which we don't know, even very ruthless people tend to have some prejudices) he isn't going to kill Joff until the brat does his dynastic duty, IMHO of course.

Telisiane
User ID: 2233684 Oct 14th 4:10 PM
Labor - True about Tommen's age. The thing is that if Tywin finds Joffrey to be unmanageable, shouldn't he get rid of him _before_ allowing Margeary to get pregnant? If Margeary has a male child, and then Joffrey is killed, suddenly the Lannisters have less power, don't they? Margeary will be the mother of the new King, and should have more power than Cersei. Might she also have some power to appoint a regent, as Cersei did, or at least to sway the balance of power towards the Tyrells? The Tyrells would do all they could to take advantage of this, no doubt, and Tywin has to know that. So I still think that _if_ Tywin eliminates Joffrey, it may be before Margeary conceives. But you are right in that it is uncertain whether Tywin is ruthless enough to kill Joffrey. I can hope, though, can't I? ;0)

labor
User ID: 8785553 Oct 14th 4:33 PM

No, Teleisane, the Queen doesn't automatically become the Regent. Cersei more or less nominated herself and got away with it, because she had enough power to do so. And Margaery didn't yet attain legal majority. Even when she does, no one will think that a 16-year old girl is fit to be a regent. IMHO, if Margaery has Joff's son and Joff dies, Cersei will continue as a Regent and Tywin as Hand (and the true regent) until child's majority. Unless the Tyrells take up arms of course. It may be more advantagious to the Lannisters if Margaery has a girl but it certainly would be quite disastrous if there is no offspring from the marriage at all.

Tyrells were quite loyal to Targaryens after all, and Dany also can offer them a royal marriage...

Moreta
User ID: 9565813 Oct 14th 4:38 PM
Tywin's certainly ruthless enough to kill Joffrey, no question, but he's smart. He knows that the Tyrells need a reason to stay with the Lannisters, hence a heir or either Tommen.

About Jaime, it's my hope that she doesn't kill him, but one of my friends said that Catelyn would kill him. She's already flipping out.

I mean, we were all expecting something bad to happen to Arya at the end of AGOT, but nothing happened. Martin could do the opposite, making us want to know more about Jaime Lannister and then offs him. I can imagine him doing exactly that. Maybe some characters just weren't meant to be explained otherwise they would lose their attraction.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 12th 4:07 AM The Kingslayer... Will he be able to change in future books? What will Catelyn do to him? Does he love Cersei? Tyrion? Does he loath himself or does he just put his family above everything? Many questions.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 12th 4:13 AM the two last posts: ************** Ran User ID: 0283314 Oct 11th 1:43 PM KAH, It's midnight. The singing's stopped. People are drunk out of their school and the castle is no doubt mostly asleep. Interesting that she called for midnight to go see him. ;) Brienne could certainly deal with the gaoler (the only guard, and he's a small and drunk man ATM) and help her get Jaime through the castle to escape. She's strong enough to, for instance, get the Water Gate open and drop Jaime in a boat to escape on the Tumblestone. Padraig, The thing with Jon is, he started trying to imagine Robb's reaction . . . and he couldn't see Robb being happy to see him. In fact, I think I recall him even considering the possibility that Robb would be forced to kill him as a deserter of the Night's Watch. Same with Jaime, but 100 times worse. He's much more well-known than Jon. How many beautifully masculine blonde, green-eyed knights do you have in the Seven Kingdoms? Once word runs south of his desertion, it only needs one misstep to have his head off. Of course, he might risk it. That's Jaime. But I'm sure he'll know the danger he's putting himself into, when he basically turns _everyone_ against him. Heck, for the sake of house honor, even Tywin might consider publically showing his commitment to the ancient institution (yeah, right -- a slim chance, but still, Tywin'll know the danger of arboring a fugitive of the Night's Watch.) ************ labor User ID: 8479113 Oct 11th 2:54 PM Yes, Ran, there is a big question about just how much disgrace Tywin would be willing to load on his House to protect his children. It all depends on whether he has some deeply hidden emotional attachment to them. If he hasn't, he may by now be sufficiently annoyed with them to consider executing Jaime if he flouts the NightWatch vows. Or even to consider getting himself rid of both Jaime and Cersei, even if they don't commit any additional offences.You can only bend the customs/laws only so far before you sustain a serious damage in return. However, I don't think that Jaime would ever swear the NightWatch vows to Catelyn. He sees NightWatch as ridiculous and he would rather be dead or a prisoner, than laughable. Lannister pride, you know. *********** Two messages, one of Kay and one of Haaruk, were lost when the thread broke down...
doctor doom User ID: 1509104	Oct 12th 10:06 AM This is possibly the biggest question of the series so far. What did Catelyn do to Jamie? I have many theories on the subject, but only one a believe is probable. Catelyn is going to make Jamie swear some oath to either her or the Night's Watch. Let me tell you why. I honesty don't believe that Catelyn is going to murder Jamie, despite how pissed she is at him for attempting to kill Bran. Catelyn is not that type of person, but I believe that her reasoning goes beyond her personality. I think that Catelyn is going to use Jamie to discover the identity of the person who sent that assassin to kill Bran. Jamie told her the truth about Tyrion's knife and all fingers point to Littlefinger (but I don't know). I know a few people who believe that it was actually Jamie who sent the assassin, but I don't buy it. Plus, for all his arrogance, I believe that Jamie does have honor in him...a strange outlook on that honor, but honor nonetheless. He murdered the mad king Aerys, only when he realized that the man couldn't be saved and he was detroying the kingdom. Now many of you will probably say that he did it for his own personal power gain, but when Ned enters the castle, Jamie grants him the throne and makes a snide comment about how uncomfortable it is. He easily could have battled Ned, since Jamie had Lannister forces in King's Landing. He gave it up because it wasn't his to keep. So, I think that Jamie's either going to be firced to swear to Catelyn (possibly through the threat of her revealing the incest claim) or going North to the Night's Watch.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Oct 12th 10:43 AM In my last post I said this (more or less); 'I hate to admit it, but Ran has a point about it being midnight'. And then I wrote something more, which I can't recall. Doom's suggestion of Cat using Jaime to find the real plotter is kind of intriguing, although I'm not sure if it is enough for her to release him. Perhaps combined with an oath to free Sansa, even if it means crossing his father. Jeez, seems I'm beginning to succumb to this loony theory myself. :P
Telisiane User ID: 9719083	Oct 12th 7:25 PM I initially rejected the notion that Cat would free Jaime, thinking "How could she be that stupid to trust him, after he just indicated how conflicted/meaningless his oaths are to him?" Then I realized that almost nothing she has done to date has made any sense to me, so why not? One idea I've been toying with is the idea of Jaime changing sides and giving Catelyn a reason to trust him. One event that could result in this is if Tywin decides to get rid of Joffrey because he is not easily controlled, and in the process somehow kills Cersei, who would defend Joffrey to the death. I'd like to see a Jaime freed from both Cersei and his father. Cersei's death by Tywin's hand might do this, and allow Catelyn to free Jaime with an easier conscience.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 12th 7:38 PM If this happens, there's no way the scene we're seeing is going to lead to that. As I said, I think the point is that there shouldn't be any real conflict under most conditions. It's a clear win-win situation for himself and the Lannisters. Returning Sansa unharmed is a small price for the Northerners packing it in. Also, I did a big analysis of this on the new board, and I noted that Cat came in looking for honor in him -- and finding little. On the other hand, she came in thinking Tyrion a liar, and she learns in the course of the interrogation that in fact he is probably trustworthy. So it balances out -- if Jaime were honorable and Tyrion was untrustworthy, deal; if Jaime were not very honorable but Tyrion was trustworthy, deal. As KAH, I think, pointed out -- the big problem is that Tyrion is no longer Hand, and indeed may now be out of favor. Tywin isn't obligated to hold to what Tyrion said. It _is_ 'senseless,' if senseless is throwing away the last chance for a victory. But given what she's gone through, and given what she's predicting, I think it's practically the only thing she can do if she's to continue her duty to her family.
haaruk	Oct 13th 0:29 AM If your theory isn't correct perhaps it should be Ran. It has beautiful symmetry and drama. Catelyn seeking honor from a man who's soul secretly craves it. Frustrated, desperate and soul sick her instincts embrace the unthinkable. Jaime shamed and amazed. Brienne as witness. Robb and Karstark's rage. The poetic justice and the irony. Jaime almost kills her son then attempts to save the life of her daughter. Catelyn kidnaps the innocent brother and starts a war. Then frees the guilty brother in an attempt to end it. Perfect symmetry. It has my vote.
labor User ID: 8785553	Oct 13th 2:33 AM Couldn't have said it better, Haaruk. I may misunderstand Theon and not fully appreciate Sandor, but we do agree on this.
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 13th 4:20 AM And it has mine. In GRRM's books, justice leads to evil, as in Stannis doings, and injustice leads to peace, as in Catelyn's doings. Nothing is safe. Nothing is sure.
doctor doom User ID: 0449874	Oct 13th 11:22 AM Whomever mentioned the possibility that Tywin is going to kill Cersie and that would force Jamie to go against his father is very perceptive. I (not as perceptive) never thought of that and could see it happening. Although I don't think Jamie really cares too much for Joffery, he would flip out if anything happened to Cersie (or Tyrion for that matter) and it looks like Tywin is going to begin cleaning house at King's Landing.
Padraig User ID: 1905964	Oct 13th 1:28 PM Hmm. Did Catelyn see in Jaime a man that secretly craves honour? If she did then she could have no problem in releasing him. I think it is very possible. Whether that means she sees what she wants to see or she truly is a reasonable person is another question. Well if Tywin does kill Cersei then he would make Jaime an enemy but I can't see it happen. Except if she was behind Tyrions attempted assasination and Tywin learns this. Even then to kill your own daughter? Harsh.
Telisiane User ID: 9719083	Oct 14th 1:49 AM My problem with Catelyn freeing Jaime immediately is that she was clearly disgusted and furious with his answers to her questions during the interrogation scene. Is it possible she was furious and frustrated because she knew that she would have to free him? Possibly. I like your idea, Haruuk. For Catelyn to free Jaime WOULD result in a nice symmetry. And in doing so, she would likely lose the trust of her son - another tragedy for her to deal with. When I said that I thought Tywin could kill Cersei, I meant to imply that it would be accidental. I CAN see Tywin trying to get rid of Joffrey, and that Cersei might sacrifice herself to save Joffrey. I don't really think that Tywin would plot to kill Cersei unless she absolutely defied him and tried to undermine his power as the Hand.
doctor doom User ID: 1056474	Oct 14th 10:33 AM Cersei get mad at her father attempting to undermine her power? Cersei is the rightful Queen of the kingdom until Joffery get married, and she's had her authority undermined by Tyrion and now Tywin is going to be pretty much running the show in King's Landing. So, Cersei certainly has something to be pissed off about and she just might get sick and tired of playing second (or third) fiddle and attempt to regain some of her power through treachery. She's real good at that.
labor User ID: 8785553	Oct 14th 10:47 AM But what else could Cersei expect when she named Tywin Hand? Certainly she couldn't know him so little that she believed that he would actually obey her? I would like to repeat that IMHO whether Tywin decides to kill his children or not depends on his presence or absence of emotional attachment to them and on how seriously he takes the Kinslaying taboo. Almost anyone in Westeros, no matter how evil, except outright psychos seems to adhere to the taboo quite strictly. Cersei seems to walk the line on the issue (i.e. Tyrion thinks that she would be ready to off Lancel). But you never know with Tywin... If he does, then he won't kill Joff either, although I see him knowing about the plot to murder him and doing nothing. Besides, he'll want Joff to live long enough to produce a joint Lannister-Tyrell heir.
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Oct 14th 12:29 PM Telisiane, Catelyn should know that she will hardly get a better chance to release him. Which as you say would make her frustrated because what she heard was not very friendly. The thing is she is going to do something with that drated sword.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Oct 14th 3:04 PM Labor - I do believe that Tywin would kill Joffrey if he determined that Joffrey is stupid, headstrong, and a liability to Lannister power. I believe that he is that ruthless. He always has Tommen, a pliable, sweet boy, waiting in the wings, and what's one more husband for Margeary, espcially if the one she's gonna get is cruel and spoiled? I think Margeary is destined to be the most often-married woman in Westeros. Perhaps all 4 or 5 weddings in ASoS will be hers! ;0) Padraig - The more I think about Haruuk's idea, the more I like it. I do continue to disagree with the idea that Catelyn believes that Jaime would keep a vow to her. But I accept the idea that she would release him in a symbolic gesture to end the war. Since she started the war by kidnapping Tyrion - by all accounts an innocent man - I could understand her reasoning that releasing Jaime is to be her penance. So cheers to Haruuk, who came up with an idea for Jaime's release that I can live with. I now have great hopes for the Jaime Lannister POV in ASoS! =0)
labor User ID: 8785553	Oct 14th 3:47 PM Teleisane, only a joint heir (or at least a joint royal child) can really make the Lannister-Tyrell alliance permanent. I am sure that Tywin is aware of this. Tommen won't be able to produce one for 4-5 years at least yet. So, even if Tywin is game about breaking the kinslaying taboo (which we don't know, even very ruthless people tend to have some prejudices) he isn't going to kill Joff until the brat does his dynastic duty, IMHO of course.
Telisiane User ID: 2233684	Oct 14th 4:10 PM Labor - True about Tommen's age. The thing is that if Tywin finds Joffrey to be unmanageable, shouldn't he get rid of him _before_ allowing Margeary to get pregnant? If Margeary has a male child, and then Joffrey is killed, suddenly the Lannisters have less power, don't they? Margeary will be the mother of the new King, and should have more power than Cersei. Might she also have some power to appoint a regent, as Cersei did, or at least to sway the balance of power towards the Tyrells? The Tyrells would do all they could to take advantage of this, no doubt, and Tywin has to know that. So I still think that _if_ Tywin eliminates Joffrey, it may be before Margeary conceives. But you are right in that it is uncertain whether Tywin is ruthless enough to kill Joffrey. I can hope, though, can't I? ;0)
labor User ID: 8785553	Oct 14th 4:33 PM No, Teleisane, the Queen doesn't automatically become the Regent. Cersei more or less nominated herself and got away with it, because she had enough power to do so. And Margaery didn't yet attain legal majority. Even when she does, no one will think that a 16-year old girl is fit to be a regent. IMHO, if Margaery has Joff's son and Joff dies, Cersei will continue as a Regent and Tywin as Hand (and the true regent) until child's majority. Unless the Tyrells take up arms of course. It may be more advantagious to the Lannisters if Margaery has a girl but it certainly would be quite disastrous if there is no offspring from the marriage at all. Tyrells were quite loyal to Targaryens after all, and Dany also can offer them a royal marriage...
Moreta User ID: 9565813	Oct 14th 4:38 PM Tywin's certainly ruthless enough to kill Joffrey, no question, but he's smart. He knows that the Tyrells need a reason to stay with the Lannisters, hence a heir or either Tommen. About Jaime, it's my hope that she doesn't kill him, but one of my friends said that Catelyn would kill him. She's already flipping out. I mean, we were all expecting something bad to happen to Arya at the end of AGOT, but nothing happened. Martin could do the opposite, making us want to know more about Jaime Lannister and then offs him. I can imagine him doing exactly that. Maybe some characters just weren't meant to be explained otherwise they would lose their attraction.