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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Littlefinger

Maeglin
User ID: 9259363 Oct 16th 2:07 AM
Can someone please tell me why Petyr Baelish is called littlefinger

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 16th 4:48 AM
His father was the lord of an absolutely tiny amount of acres on the windswept Fingers (islands sworn to the Eyrie.) Also, he was small for his age. So Edmure Tully called him Littlefinger when they were boys growing up in Riverrun together.

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Oct 17th 3:54 PM
And he'll never forgive him for it.

Okay I made that up. Although its probably true.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 17th 6:20 PM
Well, the thing he won't forgive Edmure for (according to Catelyn) is that he squired for Brandon Stark when Petyr challenged him. So you're sort of right, Padraig. ;)

labor
User ID: 1891784 Oct 20th 12:23 PM

And isn't it a pretty betrayal of Edmure's and Littlefinger's foster-brother relationship. IMHO Petyr was completely right when he refused to speak with Edmure after the duel - Brandon didn't really require his services as he had his own squire (Ethan Glover, IIRC) and the least Edmure could have done in such situation in any case, would be to remain neutral. Although, more than likely it was just old Hoster making the point - a bit more gently than Tywin Lannister with Tysha, but still.

So, I would say that Edmure is next on Littlefinger's shooting list - that guy wouldn't want to rule from cursed Harrenhal, but from Riverrun itself. The Blackfish was conveniently desinherited, the Stark boys and Catelyn can be all attainted as traitors, so it is just Edmure's life and Sansa's hand between Littlefinger and Riverrun. Oh, and Lannister-Tyrell victory, of course, but that goes without saying.

Joe Bob
User ID: 0791694 Oct 20th 3:25 PM
Does anyone else think Lysa Arryn's son, Robert, is really Littlefinger's?

We know from what Hoster mumbles during his fever dreams that Lysa and Littlefinger were doing the wild thing.

It might explain why the kid is small fo his age and so sickly.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 20th 3:48 PM
Well, we don't _know_ that they were having sex before her marriage, though I suspect that Littlefinger is tellin the truth when he claimed he had Lysa's maidenhead (though he's lying right out about having Cat's as well.)

I'm not sure of the possibility of Robert being Littlefinger's child. While the small size fits, sickliness doesn't really. But both do fit the child of a man late in his years, just as Jon was -- time degrades quality of sperm, just as it degrades quality of ova.

So ... I don't know. It'd be an interesting take on things. I certainly can see Littlefinger bedding her in KL to try and get information out of her. The wife of the Hand would know a lot about what he was doing, and a dissatisfied wife of the Hand might be persuaded to tell quite a lot to her old friend and confidant.

Whether it lead to Robert, I'm out on that.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Oct 21st 1:58 PM
Littlefinger doesn't comment on whether he had Lysa while she was in Kingslanding and I think he's the type to kiss and tell. So, although I once did, I don't think Robert Arryn is his.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 21st 2:06 PM
Actually, he's not specific. He claims to having deflowered her, but then he says (to Tyrion) something along the lines of , 'You know this means I'll have to sleep with her again.'

Well, this may refer to way back when, but it could just as easily refer to the present.

Another thing is ... well, if he had been having an affair with Lysa in King's Landing, that means he's an adulterer, and moreover one who was adulterating with the wife of the Hand.

I doubt he'd let _that_ information out, at least to Tyrion.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Oct 21st 2:27 PM
But they probably expect that sort of thing from him anyway. He'd just be keeping up appearances. I don't think it would hurt him if it were true.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 27th 9:07 AM
A question here. When Littlefinger gets himself appointed as "ambassador" to the Tyrells, he insists on getting documents stating that he has the power to make all deals necessary to secure the Tyrells as allies. It's basically a blank check, and Tyrion doesn't want to give it but is stuck.

I've been trying to think of why Littlefinger wanted that authority and what he did with it while negotiating with the Tyrells. I don't think it could be something that _obviously_ benefits only Littlefinger -- why would the Tyrells care about that? So, exactly what else did he do when meeting with the Tyrells in Bitterbridge other than making basic marriage arrangements? Maybe something involving Sansa? I really don't know.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Mar 27th 9:10 AM
I've been thinking about those documents myself, but frankly, I don't know what else he could use them for, other than making the deal with the Tyrells.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Mar 27th 10:17 AM
Agreed. But then why did he want such broad authority, and why was Tyrion so suspicious? There may be some other side deals that would appeal to the Tyrells and also benefit Littlefinger in some way.

Maybe to make other marriage arrangements? I don't want to discuss this in much detail but I wonder if that might have cropped up. The Tyrells have, what, four sons? And Sansa would seem to be available. That could get Littlefinger on Catelyn's good side because it would mean she would be safe. It seems like there has to be something, though.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 27th 10:45 AM
I've increasingly convinced myself that Littlefinger has been involved in some shady things with the Tyrells since the time that Loras was in King's Landing. I half imagine that he helped spur the attempts to put Cersei aside -- although only far enough to make more chaos.

If this niggling thought of mine (which I really should have written down when it struck me, since I don't recall off hand all the little details which made me start to believe) is true, then Littlefinger could very well have done some extra, quiet deals for his own benefit mainly (though, surely, disguised to some degree.)

Padraig
User ID: 7803273 Mar 27th 1:03 PM
Tyrion could have been so suspicious because he just didn't trust Littlefinger with so much power. If he thought Littlefinger would actually use it to Lannister disadvantage he wouldn't have given it to him. Hate to put a dampner on things but its possible.

Snake
User ID: 0101764 Mar 27th 2:32 PM
I think Petyr wanted broad powers so he could convince the Tyrells that what he was going to give them would actually come true. I believe that the Tyrells don't trust the Lannisters. Plus, Petyr granted himself Harrenhal didn't he? When the Imp promised Petyr Harenhal he almost drooled. When he found out it was a lie he was quite distraught. So I think Harrenhal was his own idea.

Rughead
User ID: 0665994 Mar 27th 7:09 PM
Ran, the maternal and paternal age vs sickliness thing is a bit inaccurate. Maternal age is associated with greater risks of chromosomal abnormalities (e.g., Down's Syndrome) because the female only ovulates one (or a few)egg monthly which is at greater risk of abnormalities as she ages.

Paternal age and "sickliness" is not well established, since the male launches millions of swimmers that have to compete and the strongest and fastest win.

I think that people associate Lysa's kid with Petyr because he is small and nasty - just like Dad!

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Mar 28th 3:47 AM
Yet one really can't deny that some degradation happens over time to the testes which affects sperm production to some degree. Everything in the body degrades with time. While it's improbable that every sperm is degraded to a large degree, reproduction is fickle enough that unhealthy sperm occassionally win out in the race to the ova.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Mar 28th 5:09 AM
Rughead, that is not accurate anymore. It has been proven that age of the father is an important factor. Not as important as mother's age, but not insignificant either.
Also, judging by Jon's only older child who was stillborn - he must have been carrying some nasty genes. Threfore Robert's sickliness.

Padraig
User ID: 0317884 Mar 28th 12:18 PM
I was going to say its always possible that Lysa has the bad genes. But then looking at both families. Catelyn has no problem with her kids. And she had 2 siblings. But the Arryns are a different proposition. Jon had only one brother it seems and that brother had only one son. No mention of other close Arryn family AFAICT. And that son of course was killed by Aerys. So certainly the Arryns have a worse genetic history than the Tullys. And when you add Jon's age...

Maeglin User ID: 9259363	Oct 16th 2:07 AM Can someone please tell me why Petyr Baelish is called littlefinger
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 16th 4:48 AM His father was the lord of an absolutely tiny amount of acres on the windswept Fingers (islands sworn to the Eyrie.) Also, he was small for his age. So Edmure Tully called him Littlefinger when they were boys growing up in Riverrun together.
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Oct 17th 3:54 PM And he'll never forgive him for it. Okay I made that up. Although its probably true.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 17th 6:20 PM Well, the thing he won't forgive Edmure for (according to Catelyn) is that he squired for Brandon Stark when Petyr challenged him. So you're sort of right, Padraig. ;)
labor User ID: 1891784	Oct 20th 12:23 PM And isn't it a pretty betrayal of Edmure's and Littlefinger's foster-brother relationship. IMHO Petyr was completely right when he refused to speak with Edmure after the duel - Brandon didn't really require his services as he had his own squire (Ethan Glover, IIRC) and the least Edmure could have done in such situation in any case, would be to remain neutral. Although, more than likely it was just old Hoster making the point - a bit more gently than Tywin Lannister with Tysha, but still. So, I would say that Edmure is next on Littlefinger's shooting list - that guy wouldn't want to rule from cursed Harrenhal, but from Riverrun itself. The Blackfish was conveniently desinherited, the Stark boys and Catelyn can be all attainted as traitors, so it is just Edmure's life and Sansa's hand between Littlefinger and Riverrun. Oh, and Lannister-Tyrell victory, of course, but that goes without saying.
Joe Bob User ID: 0791694	Oct 20th 3:25 PM Does anyone else think Lysa Arryn's son, Robert, is really Littlefinger's? We know from what Hoster mumbles during his fever dreams that Lysa and Littlefinger were doing the wild thing. It might explain why the kid is small fo his age and so sickly.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 20th 3:48 PM Well, we don't _know_ that they were having sex before her marriage, though I suspect that Littlefinger is tellin the truth when he claimed he had Lysa's maidenhead (though he's lying right out about having Cat's as well.) I'm not sure of the possibility of Robert being Littlefinger's child. While the small size fits, sickliness doesn't really. But both do fit the child of a man late in his years, just as Jon was -- time degrades quality of sperm, just as it degrades quality of ova. So ... I don't know. It'd be an interesting take on things. I certainly can see Littlefinger bedding her in KL to try and get information out of her. The wife of the Hand would know a lot about what he was doing, and a dissatisfied wife of the Hand might be persuaded to tell quite a lot to her old friend and confidant. Whether it lead to Robert, I'm out on that.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Oct 21st 1:58 PM Littlefinger doesn't comment on whether he had Lysa while she was in Kingslanding and I think he's the type to kiss and tell. So, although I once did, I don't think Robert Arryn is his.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 21st 2:06 PM Actually, he's not specific. He claims to having deflowered her, but then he says (to Tyrion) something along the lines of , 'You know this means I'll have to sleep with her again.' Well, this may refer to way back when, but it could just as easily refer to the present. Another thing is ... well, if he had been having an affair with Lysa in King's Landing, that means he's an adulterer, and moreover one who was adulterating with the wife of the Hand. I doubt he'd let _that_ information out, at least to Tyrion.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Oct 21st 2:27 PM But they probably expect that sort of thing from him anyway. He'd just be keeping up appearances. I don't think it would hurt him if it were true.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 27th 9:07 AM A question here. When Littlefinger gets himself appointed as "ambassador" to the Tyrells, he insists on getting documents stating that he has the power to make all deals necessary to secure the Tyrells as allies. It's basically a blank check, and Tyrion doesn't want to give it but is stuck. I've been trying to think of why Littlefinger wanted that authority and what he did with it while negotiating with the Tyrells. I don't think it could be something that _obviously_ benefits only Littlefinger -- why would the Tyrells care about that? So, exactly what else did he do when meeting with the Tyrells in Bitterbridge other than making basic marriage arrangements? Maybe something involving Sansa? I really don't know.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Mar 27th 9:10 AM I've been thinking about those documents myself, but frankly, I don't know what else he could use them for, other than making the deal with the Tyrells.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Mar 27th 10:17 AM Agreed. But then why did he want such broad authority, and why was Tyrion so suspicious? There may be some other side deals that would appeal to the Tyrells and also benefit Littlefinger in some way. Maybe to make other marriage arrangements? I don't want to discuss this in much detail but I wonder if that might have cropped up. The Tyrells have, what, four sons? And Sansa would seem to be available. That could get Littlefinger on Catelyn's good side because it would mean she would be safe. It seems like there has to be something, though.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 27th 10:45 AM I've increasingly convinced myself that Littlefinger has been involved in some shady things with the Tyrells since the time that Loras was in King's Landing. I half imagine that he helped spur the attempts to put Cersei aside -- although only far enough to make more chaos. If this niggling thought of mine (which I really should have written down when it struck me, since I don't recall off hand all the little details which made me start to believe) is true, then Littlefinger could very well have done some extra, quiet deals for his own benefit mainly (though, surely, disguised to some degree.)
Padraig User ID: 7803273	Mar 27th 1:03 PM Tyrion could have been so suspicious because he just didn't trust Littlefinger with so much power. If he thought Littlefinger would actually use it to Lannister disadvantage he wouldn't have given it to him. Hate to put a dampner on things but its possible.
Snake User ID: 0101764	Mar 27th 2:32 PM I think Petyr wanted broad powers so he could convince the Tyrells that what he was going to give them would actually come true. I believe that the Tyrells don't trust the Lannisters. Plus, Petyr granted himself Harrenhal didn't he? When the Imp promised Petyr Harenhal he almost drooled. When he found out it was a lie he was quite distraught. So I think Harrenhal was his own idea.
Rughead User ID: 0665994	Mar 27th 7:09 PM Ran, the maternal and paternal age vs sickliness thing is a bit inaccurate. Maternal age is associated with greater risks of chromosomal abnormalities (e.g., Down's Syndrome) because the female only ovulates one (or a few)egg monthly which is at greater risk of abnormalities as she ages. Paternal age and "sickliness" is not well established, since the male launches millions of swimmers that have to compete and the strongest and fastest win. I think that people associate Lysa's kid with Petyr because he is small and nasty - just like Dad!
Ran User ID: 0867924	Mar 28th 3:47 AM Yet one really can't deny that some degradation happens over time to the testes which affects sperm production to some degree. Everything in the body degrades with time. While it's improbable that every sperm is degraded to a large degree, reproduction is fickle enough that unhealthy sperm occassionally win out in the race to the ova.
labor User ID: 0798784	Mar 28th 5:09 AM Rughead, that is not accurate anymore. It has been proven that age of the father is an important factor. Not as important as mother's age, but not insignificant either. Also, judging by Jon's only older child who was stillborn - he must have been carrying some nasty genes. Threfore Robert's sickliness.
Padraig User ID: 0317884	Mar 28th 12:18 PM I was going to say its always possible that Lysa has the bad genes. But then looking at both families. Catelyn has no problem with her kids. And she had 2 siblings. But the Arryns are a different proposition. Jon had only one brother it seems and that brother had only one son. No mention of other close Arryn family AFAICT. And that son of course was killed by Aerys. So certainly the Arryns have a worse genetic history than the Tullys. And when you add Jon's age...