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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Biblical Parallel?

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Omer
User ID: 0485244 Nov 24th 11:25 AM
OK, I don't remember my bible all too well, and I learned it in Hebrew, so pardon mistakes, but here goes:

Anyone ever thought about How similar Stannis's position was to that of Rehavam(hebrew fonetics) son of Solomon?

Both had a situation in whoch they had to choose, whether to give up for the demands of "The people" or not.

In both cases, they got two advises, from the Elderly and the wise(Cressen and Davos) and the people of their own age, young ( The queen and Melissandre)

in both cases they liked better the advise they recieved from the young, and then they followed it...

to dire consequences.

Padraig
User ID: 9593383 Nov 26th 5:14 PM
Nice comparison. Honestly can say that I need to re-read the Bible to say anything. And in case nobody noticed : the Bible is a _big_ book.

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Nov 27th 4:01 PM
padraig-probably why no one else has responded yet either especially since everyone has a different version of the bible. Interesting question though.

Ok-slightly off topic-but if the bible (most especially new testament) was in the hands of the Catholic Church for a thousand years before any dissention that led to off shoots that weren't stamped out of existance, and it is known that there were and are some very corrupt people in that orginization, then how can we believe that anything in it (especially the new testament) is the 'word' of god and not what some fat rich priest/bishop/cardinal/pope wanted the people to believe at the time?

Relic
User ID: 8980403 Nov 27th 4:52 PM
Cgob, there are a few things in the bible that are actually dirived from history, although im convinced most of everything else in it is a falsehood. For instance there almost surely was a Jesus Christ, although with a sligtly different name, and with darker skin than we know. He preached love and togetherness and deveopled a follwoing, But he diffinetly was no a son of god, he did not die for our sins and so on. The bible is a great book to read , nice work of fiction.

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Nov 27th 5:12 PM
I'm not sure that this is a place for the examination of the bible as truth. However, I do wonder how people continue to believe in the bible, after so much of it is proven to be false.

Padraig
User ID: 9593383 Nov 27th 5:34 PM
Was it Stalin who said something about people believing the big lie?

Any book which begins with the Adam and Eve story is going to have a problem with credibility. I mean when are we supposed to start believing this thing?

Anyway, there is a religion topic on the Other Topics board which could be used for any further discussion. Or we could stay on here.;-)

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Nov 28th 6:14 PM
Lets stay on here for a while because the off-topic question really isn't about religion per se but whether the bible (and I should have really specified new testament) was changed to fit the church's needs instead of it being testament. The religion topic is about the validity of all religions. At least here we can debate without interrupting previuos discussions :)

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Nov 28th 6:20 PM
unless omer has any objections :)

Relic
User ID: 0478154 Nov 29th 1:18 AM
People believe it because they want to. It gives them comfort. Cgob, i believe the Bible has been fitted with all those "necessary" things the church thinks people need to do. Basically its an easy guidline that peole can look at, say ok if i take lessons from all the things this bible teaches me i will go to heaven.

Its a pleasant way to simpliy existance in this world, and i guess there is nothing wrong with that.

Emily
User ID: 7204563 Nov 29th 6:50 AM
Yes there is. Basing your life on a lie is not a good idea. And there is nothing remotely pleasant about the effect religion has had on human rights in general and women's rights in particular.

Relic
User ID: 0478154 Nov 29th 7:20 AM
Emily, you are right, but if something comforts you, and doesn't really hurt those around you why not do it? Religion isnt the only thing screwing up womens rights though, basic evolution did a good job of that.

I agree with you though, personally i could not stand living a lie. But others do, and its not my right to judge.

NoNameYet
User ID: 9983153 Nov 30th 1:59 PM
I don't think religion itself is the problem. Nor is it the highly improbable texts that define them. The problem with organized religions are the people who run them. They manage to turn something that has good intentions into a bloody, violent monster.
And I think it's a bit extreme to call the Bible a lie. We can't take it as an historical document but there are some passages that are beautiful and inspiring in times of need. The sexist/racist overtones can be attributed, once again, to the people who run the church. They stuck that crap in there to serve their own selfish desires.
Smart people can seperate the good from the bad. Mentally disturbed people cannot and commit atrocites in the name of God.

Though I do not subscribe to it organized religion is a necessity and most of the time not really a bad thing.

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Nov 30th 2:26 PM
NoNameYet wrote-Though I do not subscribe to it organized religion is a necessity and most of the time not really a bad thing.

I agree that religion is a necessity, but most of the time not a bad thing? Please define 'most'. If most means day to day I might agree but if most is defined in years than I cannot. Every day atrocities are commited in the name of organized religion.In the last recorded 2000 years organized religion has played a major part in the known genocides that have occured. People kill every day in the name of their organized religion.

The practice of 'worshipping' god/whatever in an organized form helps weed out non-believers, often violently. We need to take away the main weapon that organized religions have which is the assertion that 'our religion is the right one' (credit-frank herbert) and impose a universal code which all religions are held to the same standards and no religions have preference over any other.

Of course this will never happen unless Bill Clinton, George Bush, and the rest of the NWO cronies take over and implement a 'one world goverment' system whereas all will be ruled centrally from the throne of the United States Federal Reserve.

OH NO! I'M BEING WATCHED! hellllppp---ARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.

We know return you to our regular poster 'cgob' who in no way, shape or form agrees, condones, implies, asserts, or believes anything in the slightest besides the fact that religion is people control.

Kevin
User ID: 1766884 Nov 30th 4:10 PM
Since the people that have posted so far on this thread are either atheist or strong agnostics, I have a question for everyone who's posted. The tone of this thread so far has been what I would call 'hostile' toward religion/christianity. My question is this: Is atheism defined as being anti-christian? It seems that almost every (friends with one who doesn't) atheist that I've met seems to feel the need to attack christianity to further their own position.

On the other hand, most christians that I know seems to ignore atheists. Atheism just isn't an issue in their lives.

One of the criticisms that I've heard about christianity is that it is intollerant. It seems to me that the opposite is true when it comes to atheist/christian interaction.

Another question for you atheists. Are you atheist because you dislike religion or because you don't believe in a higher power or because of some life experience? I feel that I can ask this and expect an honest answer as I have tried to explain my beliefs (as well as possible) on the other threads.

There is a lot of talk of religion (belief in a higher power) being a lie. I have an open mind and am constantly searching for new information. Please someone prove to me that God does not exist. If you can then I will tell you that you are right and I will no longer be christian. If you can't then I think the definition of christianity that should be used is, "the belief in something that can't be proven."

I do not mean any of this as an attack but am curious. I also have been trying to find someone for nearly 10 years that could prove to me that God doesn't exist.

cgob
User ID: 0053014 Nov 30th 9:46 PM
I am not an atheist nor an agnostic. I cannot prove wether god doesn't exisn't or does. I believe in the divine. My problem with christains are that the on the whole have the attitude that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Of course so do muslims and jews.

In particular I find most christains ignorant of the very religion they profess to believe in. They refuse to see that the very religion that they eschew is directly taken from another religion which was taken from another religion and so forth. Before the worship of Yahweh, jews were not called jews and they didn't worship one god. In fact the old testament is full of how these other 'jews' worshipped other dieties and convienlently they get smited by Yahweh. The old testament itself while historical in nature is full of basic mythos common to other known religions at the time.
My main problem with christains is their belief in Jesus Christ and the new testament. I can accept that Jesus was a man. I believe that he existed. But to believe in the mythos surronding him is like believing in the same things that christains mock as fairy tale such as the greek/roman mythos.
I have found myself to be more christain in character than most professed christains I have encountered. I believe in the 'golden' rule and try to live my life by it yet I consistently see christains only giving it lip service. Of course I also live in an american state where Pat Robertson, Jerry Fahwell, and the Christain Coalition make their residence as well so maybe I experience their hypocracy slightly more than the average person.

As to why it seems that christains are attacked a lot by atheists and agnostics, that simply is because the majority of us (on this board at least) live in an western christain culture. It is much easier to ridicule something you see in almost every aspect of your life.

Atheists are fools to say they know anything. Agnostics are confused and wishy-washy.

I'd never pretend to know what is right or wrong when it comes to the divine. I only know what values and moral judgements I respect and for all I know they might be the wrong ones but I guess I'll find out after I kick the bucket (or then again maybe I won't)

Omer
User ID: 0485244 Dec 1st 5:33 AM
Kevin - I think the problem is that atheists feel threatened by the ignorance of many( though not all or even most) theists. We feel that the system takes theist point of view as an absoloute obvious thing. like Senator McBain( sp?) saying that they way to treat the poor was 'christian'. So I guess its a defence mechanism.

Also atheists are human beings, and seperating yourself from something often requires that you'll resent it.

And of course, theists give TONS of reasons for atheists to dislike them

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Dec 1st 3:39 PM
A 'one world goverment' system whereas all will be ruled centrally from the throne of the United States Federal Reserve. A very scary thought. Come back religion all is forgiven.

Relic
User ID: 0714654 Dec 1st 5:04 PM
Kevin, no one can "prove" to you that God does not exist, just as no one can "prove" that he does exist. You believe what you will.

It just seems to me that the Catholic religion is too "easy". Its a simple way of explaining the question that mankind cannot answer. Why are we here? Why are we alive? What happens when we die? Catholisism is simple, pray, be good and God will love you. There is no sacrifice, and even when comminting sins against the religion you can just go talk to a preist say a few prayers and all is forgiven.

Everything is explained for you , and you have nothing to fear. Because of that Cathol;ics(and most religious groups) can feel unburdened by theese questions and live in ignorance , which brings alot of the problems we have in society. I believe that if they werent given such an easy solution to life, we would see massive differnces in our culture, starting with mutual love. Because the knowledge that you are very mortal and very finite would bring about a hwole new respect for life.

Kevin
User ID: 1766884 Dec 1st 6:25 PM
Relic, you are wrong on several counts. 1) Being christian is NOT easy. 2) It requires a lot of sacrifice. 3) It's not the priest that gives you forgiveness, it's God. 4) Not everything is explained for you. 5) Christians fully realize that they are mortal. 6) Christians don't respect life? Where did you get that one?

Have you actually ever even studied what christianity is about or have you relied on what you've heard? If you have not studied then you are doing what you accuse most christians of - living (and acting) in ignorance. Your perception simply does not match the reality of what being christian is.

The life of a christian is about SERVICE and SACRIFICE. We are called to serve our fellow man. "Meek shall inheret the earth", "the slave shall become the master" etc are not about going merrily on your way in life. It requires work to be a christian.

It is a simple message that christians follow but it is supremely dificult to follow that message day in and day out.

If you can not prove that God does not exist then how can you call God a lie? Until you have proof that God does not exist, you can not assume that your OPINION is any more valid than a christian's. You Padraig, Emily, and Omer have all called God a lie or believing in God believing in a lie. Unless one of you can proove the existance of God to be false, then all of you should stop that nasty habit. You are acting as if your OPINION is superior to that of a christian. Isn't a superiority complex something that many here have accused christians of?

Some have answered some of my questions, but I want more input. Is atheism defined by being anti-christian? Why did you decide to become atheist/agnostic? Can someone prove that God does not exist?

Kevin
User ID: 0714654 Dec 1st 6:55 PM
Kevin everyone can have their own opinion. You asked for my personal belief and I gave you the reasons. As for your question, can you prove god does exist? Oh and i was raised in a religious family, went to a catholic school, and all that jazz.

And no one that believes in an afterlife can FULLY respect life.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Omer User ID: 0485244	Nov 24th 11:25 AM OK, I don't remember my bible all too well, and I learned it in Hebrew, so pardon mistakes, but here goes: Anyone ever thought about How similar Stannis's position was to that of Rehavam(hebrew fonetics) son of Solomon? Both had a situation in whoch they had to choose, whether to give up for the demands of "The people" or not. In both cases, they got two advises, from the Elderly and the wise(Cressen and Davos) and the people of their own age, young ( The queen and Melissandre) in both cases they liked better the advise they recieved from the young, and then they followed it... to dire consequences.
Padraig User ID: 9593383	Nov 26th 5:14 PM Nice comparison. Honestly can say that I need to re-read the Bible to say anything. And in case nobody noticed : the Bible is a _big_ book.
cgob User ID: 0053014	Nov 27th 4:01 PM padraig-probably why no one else has responded yet either especially since everyone has a different version of the bible. Interesting question though. Ok-slightly off topic-but if the bible (most especially new testament) was in the hands of the Catholic Church for a thousand years before any dissention that led to off shoots that weren't stamped out of existance, and it is known that there were and are some very corrupt people in that orginization, then how can we believe that anything in it (especially the new testament) is the 'word' of god and not what some fat rich priest/bishop/cardinal/pope wanted the people to believe at the time?
Relic User ID: 8980403	Nov 27th 4:52 PM Cgob, there are a few things in the bible that are actually dirived from history, although im convinced most of everything else in it is a falsehood. For instance there almost surely was a Jesus Christ, although with a sligtly different name, and with darker skin than we know. He preached love and togetherness and deveopled a follwoing, But he diffinetly was no a son of god, he did not die for our sins and so on. The bible is a great book to read , nice work of fiction.
Omer User ID: 0485244	Nov 27th 5:12 PM I'm not sure that this is a place for the examination of the bible as truth. However, I do wonder how people continue to believe in the bible, after so much of it is proven to be false.
Padraig User ID: 9593383	Nov 27th 5:34 PM Was it Stalin who said something about people believing the big lie? Any book which begins with the Adam and Eve story is going to have a problem with credibility. I mean when are we supposed to start believing this thing? Anyway, there is a religion topic on the Other Topics board which could be used for any further discussion. Or we could stay on here.;-)
cgob User ID: 0053014	Nov 28th 6:14 PM Lets stay on here for a while because the off-topic question really isn't about religion per se but whether the bible (and I should have really specified new testament) was changed to fit the church's needs instead of it being testament. The religion topic is about the validity of all religions. At least here we can debate without interrupting previuos discussions :)
cgob User ID: 0053014	Nov 28th 6:20 PM unless omer has any objections :)
Relic User ID: 0478154	Nov 29th 1:18 AM People believe it because they want to. It gives them comfort. Cgob, i believe the Bible has been fitted with all those "necessary" things the church thinks people need to do. Basically its an easy guidline that peole can look at, say ok if i take lessons from all the things this bible teaches me i will go to heaven. Its a pleasant way to simpliy existance in this world, and i guess there is nothing wrong with that.
Emily User ID: 7204563	Nov 29th 6:50 AM Yes there is. Basing your life on a lie is not a good idea. And there is nothing remotely pleasant about the effect religion has had on human rights in general and women's rights in particular.
Relic User ID: 0478154	Nov 29th 7:20 AM Emily, you are right, but if something comforts you, and doesn't really hurt those around you why not do it? Religion isnt the only thing screwing up womens rights though, basic evolution did a good job of that. I agree with you though, personally i could not stand living a lie. But others do, and its not my right to judge.
NoNameYet User ID: 9983153	Nov 30th 1:59 PM I don't think religion itself is the problem. Nor is it the highly improbable texts that define them. The problem with organized religions are the people who run them. They manage to turn something that has good intentions into a bloody, violent monster. And I think it's a bit extreme to call the Bible a lie. We can't take it as an historical document but there are some passages that are beautiful and inspiring in times of need. The sexist/racist overtones can be attributed, once again, to the people who run the church. They stuck that crap in there to serve their own selfish desires. Smart people can seperate the good from the bad. Mentally disturbed people cannot and commit atrocites in the name of God. Though I do not subscribe to it organized religion is a necessity and most of the time not really a bad thing.
cgob User ID: 0053014	Nov 30th 2:26 PM NoNameYet wrote-Though I do not subscribe to it organized religion is a necessity and most of the time not really a bad thing. I agree that religion is a necessity, but most of the time not a bad thing? Please define 'most'. If most means day to day I might agree but if most is defined in years than I cannot. Every day atrocities are commited in the name of organized religion.In the last recorded 2000 years organized religion has played a major part in the known genocides that have occured. People kill every day in the name of their organized religion. The practice of 'worshipping' god/whatever in an organized form helps weed out non-believers, often violently. We need to take away the main weapon that organized religions have which is the assertion that 'our religion is the right one' (credit-frank herbert) and impose a universal code which all religions are held to the same standards and no religions have preference over any other. Of course this will never happen unless Bill Clinton, George Bush, and the rest of the NWO cronies take over and implement a 'one world goverment' system whereas all will be ruled centrally from the throne of the United States Federal Reserve. OH NO! I'M BEING WATCHED! hellllppp---ARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. We know return you to our regular poster 'cgob' who in no way, shape or form agrees, condones, implies, asserts, or believes anything in the slightest besides the fact that religion is people control.
Kevin User ID: 1766884	Nov 30th 4:10 PM Since the people that have posted so far on this thread are either atheist or strong agnostics, I have a question for everyone who's posted. The tone of this thread so far has been what I would call 'hostile' toward religion/christianity. My question is this: Is atheism defined as being anti-christian? It seems that almost every (friends with one who doesn't) atheist that I've met seems to feel the need to attack christianity to further their own position. On the other hand, most christians that I know seems to ignore atheists. Atheism just isn't an issue in their lives. One of the criticisms that I've heard about christianity is that it is intollerant. It seems to me that the opposite is true when it comes to atheist/christian interaction. Another question for you atheists. Are you atheist because you dislike religion or because you don't believe in a higher power or because of some life experience? I feel that I can ask this and expect an honest answer as I have tried to explain my beliefs (as well as possible) on the other threads. There is a lot of talk of religion (belief in a higher power) being a lie. I have an open mind and am constantly searching for new information. Please someone prove to me that God does not exist. If you can then I will tell you that you are right and I will no longer be christian. If you can't then I think the definition of christianity that should be used is, "the belief in something that can't be proven." I do not mean any of this as an attack but am curious. I also have been trying to find someone for nearly 10 years that could prove to me that God doesn't exist.
cgob User ID: 0053014	Nov 30th 9:46 PM I am not an atheist nor an agnostic. I cannot prove wether god doesn't exisn't or does. I believe in the divine. My problem with christains are that the on the whole have the attitude that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Of course so do muslims and jews. In particular I find most christains ignorant of the very religion they profess to believe in. They refuse to see that the very religion that they eschew is directly taken from another religion which was taken from another religion and so forth. Before the worship of Yahweh, jews were not called jews and they didn't worship one god. In fact the old testament is full of how these other 'jews' worshipped other dieties and convienlently they get smited by Yahweh. The old testament itself while historical in nature is full of basic mythos common to other known religions at the time. My main problem with christains is their belief in Jesus Christ and the new testament. I can accept that Jesus was a man. I believe that he existed. But to believe in the mythos surronding him is like believing in the same things that christains mock as fairy tale such as the greek/roman mythos. I have found myself to be more christain in character than most professed christains I have encountered. I believe in the 'golden' rule and try to live my life by it yet I consistently see christains only giving it lip service. Of course I also live in an american state where Pat Robertson, Jerry Fahwell, and the Christain Coalition make their residence as well so maybe I experience their hypocracy slightly more than the average person. As to why it seems that christains are attacked a lot by atheists and agnostics, that simply is because the majority of us (on this board at least) live in an western christain culture. It is much easier to ridicule something you see in almost every aspect of your life. Atheists are fools to say they know anything. Agnostics are confused and wishy-washy. I'd never pretend to know what is right or wrong when it comes to the divine. I only know what values and moral judgements I respect and for all I know they might be the wrong ones but I guess I'll find out after I kick the bucket (or then again maybe I won't)
Omer User ID: 0485244	Dec 1st 5:33 AM Kevin - I think the problem is that atheists feel threatened by the ignorance of many( though not all or even most) theists. We feel that the system takes theist point of view as an absoloute obvious thing. like Senator McBain( sp?) saying that they way to treat the poor was 'christian'. So I guess its a defence mechanism. Also atheists are human beings, and seperating yourself from something often requires that you'll resent it. And of course, theists give TONS of reasons for atheists to dislike them
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Dec 1st 3:39 PM A 'one world goverment' system whereas all will be ruled centrally from the throne of the United States Federal Reserve. A very scary thought. Come back religion all is forgiven.
Relic User ID: 0714654	Dec 1st 5:04 PM Kevin, no one can "prove" to you that God does not exist, just as no one can "prove" that he does exist. You believe what you will. It just seems to me that the Catholic religion is too "easy". Its a simple way of explaining the question that mankind cannot answer. Why are we here? Why are we alive? What happens when we die? Catholisism is simple, pray, be good and God will love you. There is no sacrifice, and even when comminting sins against the religion you can just go talk to a preist say a few prayers and all is forgiven. Everything is explained for you , and you have nothing to fear. Because of that Cathol;ics(and most religious groups) can feel unburdened by theese questions and live in ignorance , which brings alot of the problems we have in society. I believe that if they werent given such an easy solution to life, we would see massive differnces in our culture, starting with mutual love. Because the knowledge that you are very mortal and very finite would bring about a hwole new respect for life.
Kevin User ID: 1766884	Dec 1st 6:25 PM Relic, you are wrong on several counts. 1) Being christian is NOT easy. 2) It requires a lot of sacrifice. 3) It's not the priest that gives you forgiveness, it's God. 4) Not everything is explained for you. 5) Christians fully realize that they are mortal. 6) Christians don't respect life? Where did you get that one? Have you actually ever even studied what christianity is about or have you relied on what you've heard? If you have not studied then you are doing what you accuse most christians of - living (and acting) in ignorance. Your perception simply does not match the reality of what being christian is. The life of a christian is about SERVICE and SACRIFICE. We are called to serve our fellow man. "Meek shall inheret the earth", "the slave shall become the master" etc are not about going merrily on your way in life. It requires work to be a christian. It is a simple message that christians follow but it is supremely dificult to follow that message day in and day out. If you can not prove that God does not exist then how can you call God a lie? Until you have proof that God does not exist, you can not assume that your OPINION is any more valid than a christian's. You Padraig, Emily, and Omer have all called God a lie or believing in God believing in a lie. Unless one of you can proove the existance of God to be false, then all of you should stop that nasty habit. You are acting as if your OPINION is superior to that of a christian. Isn't a superiority complex something that many here have accused christians of? Some have answered some of my questions, but I want more input. Is atheism defined by being anti-christian? Why did you decide to become atheist/agnostic? Can someone prove that God does not exist?
Kevin User ID: 0714654	Dec 1st 6:55 PM Kevin everyone can have their own opinion. You asked for my personal belief and I gave you the reasons. As for your question, can you prove god does exist? Oh and i was raised in a religious family, went to a catholic school, and all that jazz. And no one that believes in an afterlife can FULLY respect life.