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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Bran's Father?

Next 20 Messages

Stallion
User ID: 1836024 Oct 20th 4:29 PM
Hi I'm amazed to find that there is hardly any threads on Bran (there seems to be one devoted to all the other characters), when he is such and interesting character, and there are so many possibilities for his future.

The thing that encouraged me to start this thread, though, is the last couple of pages of aCoK. When Maester Luwin is dying, he says to Bran "A good boy. Your...your father's son, Bran." I realise that this is a common figure of speech, but to me it seems out of the ordinary that Maester Luwin says something to Osha immediately without anyone hearing. (He asks for "another boon").

As crazy as it sounds it just got me wondering whether Bran may not be Ned's son. It might explain his magical abilities - green dreams, etc if in fact he isn't. Especially since Howland Reed (is he Jojen and Meera's father?) was so close to Ned, and Bran shares this strange ability with the Reed kids. (I'm suggesting that Howland Reed might be Bran's father). It might also explain why Maester Luwin always seemed disinterested with Bran's dreams, when one would think that such obvious magic would interest a Maester. Perhaps Maester Luwin knew (because he delivered the baby or however) about Bran's parentage and this is what he told Osha in the last few pages.

Remember that Bran was described to have the Tully, features, too, which would mean that we have no proof from his appearance as to who his father could be. I wouldn't think that Jojen and Meera suspect that Bran might be their brother, but this is another one of the mysteries that Howland Reed might have for us (perhaps he will be the next POV).

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 20th 4:40 PM
Mrmmm .....

Cat having slept with someone other than Ned? And not revealed it? And, moreover, when Howland Reed has not left the Neck for about 15 years?

It's inspiredly crazy, but I'm not biting. :)

ShiftyBob
User ID: 0575574 Oct 20th 5:25 PM
Sorry Stallion, but that theory just doesnt add up - have to agree with Ran. There is no way that someone so moral as Cat would sleep with anyone but Ned. And the time gap.....

Min
User ID: 1446254 Oct 21st 5:33 AM
hmmm, I'm not sure. The stumbling in Luwin's speech may have come due to emotion. I am not sure about Cat, though. She preferred Bran over all her other children (fairness has never been something she wasd strong at). And the marriage with Ned was not a love marriage. Still, I cannot really see her bedding another man. She's just not the type. Too captures in morals and not honest enough to herself.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Oct 21st 1:47 PM
Bran belongs to Ned. No question about it.

Carol
User ID: 9405543 Oct 25th 6:33 PM
I wouldn't put it past Cat to have an affair, but then she could hardly have kept up her resentment of Jon, and she'd have had to admit it in her own POVs, at least.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 25th 6:53 PM
Don't see why she would have had one.

Their relationship grew to be quite a healthy and loving one, from all we can see. If things had been very different -- if Ned had been cold or indifferent or unkind -- then maybe, one never knows.

Stallion
User ID: 1836024 Oct 25th 7:05 PM
Thanks Carol! I was beginning to think that this thread was going to get to 100 posting without a single person agreeing with me. :)

One of the reasons that I suggested this theory is that I don't believe Cat is quite as nice and perfect as everyone thinks. Even from her POVs I get the impression that she is becoming this cold, dettached person. I realise that this may be a result of Ned's death, but I think she had it in her the whole time, and even though she married Ned happily, she was betrothed to Brandon, and I believe there was no love between Ned and Catelyn prior to their marriage.

I also think that Cat's resentment of Jon is unhealthy. The whole first part of aGOT I didn't like Cat very much because she was just so mean to Jon, even when he tried to comfort her and made every attempt to be nice. I believe that this resentment may have been a result of self-pity (or guilt) because she knows that she had an illegitimate son too (Bran), and she couldn't let anyone know.

Emily
User ID: 9851073 Oct 26th 7:09 AM
Bran. Is. Ned's. OK? I mean, if we carry on like this for much longer, poor Ned isn't going to be left with any sons at all!

If Cat had an affair, there is no way we could have had so much of her POV for so long without her once thinking of it. Look at what happened when Bran fell. Catelyn blamed herself because she'd prayed for something to happen to keep him at home. If he wasn't Ned's son, she'd be infinitely more likely to feel that the fall was a punishment for adultery. And then there's the fact that one of the first things we learn in AGOT is that Catelyn loves Ned 'with all her heart.' So I doubt she'd be sneaking off into the marshes looking for illicit sex with Mr Frog-Eater.

As for the break in Luwin's voice...he was dying in agony (justice at last!) so it's not surprising. It was also pretty clear (I think) that the boon he was asking of Osha was death.

But don't worry Stallion, we don't all think that Cat is nice and perfect. Read any thread and sooner or later you'll find Min spitting venom at the poor woman.

Ami
User ID: 8666863 Oct 27th 12:59 PM
I think the thing that proves to me that Bran is definately a Stark is his dreams thru Summer's eyes. We know Jon does it, too, and I have a hunch that Robb can and that it may have everything to do with his victories. I've always had it in my head that this was some long dead Stark trait, this connection w/animals, be it the Starks are wargs or whatever.
Sorry, Stallion, I think Luwin just wanted Osha to speed up his death.

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Oct 27th 3:29 PM
And if Ned wasn't Bran's father then that would make Bran a bastard. While that would be funny that would not fit with Catelyn's frosty relationship with bastards. Or since she loved Ned she hardly would love a child that wasn't his the most.

So no support from me either Stallion. Sorry.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Oct 27th 5:19 PM
Hey Stallion. Don't give it up. I've thrown some "strange" things out there that had them all groaning and moaning for weeks. That's often the initial reaction. Make a strong enough case in rebuttal and some will come around. I will not discount the possibility that Cat had an affair, and perhaps she hates herself for having done so and Jon all the more because of it. But don't limit yourself to Howland Reed as her partner. Bran seems to be her favorite child. Why?

Chris Greenway
User ID: 9510053 Oct 28th 5:58 AM
Okay one right out of blue here. I actually do believe that Bran is Ned's, but GRRM has shown us in the first two books that anything can happen. I can't see Cat having an affair with Howland Reed (does she even know the man?),but lets try this one out: Bran is a changeling. One of these Others substituted one of their own. It's far fetched and prob'ly wrong, but worth a shot and it would explain a few things about Bran.

Buffy
User ID: 1105234 Oct 28th 11:55 AM
Sorry - I don't see how there is anyway that Cat has had an affair. She was always the one to do her "duty". Also, she is still upset about Jon after all this time. It wouldn't fit that she also had an illicit child.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Oct 28th 12:16 PM
I don't think Cat would have considered just going out and having an affair -- unless she believed Ned had done so beforehand. On that basis, she could probably justify it. I'm not totally buying into the idea that she did, mind you, but let me throw another name out there that isn't Howland Reed. How about Benjen Stark?

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Oct 28th 1:06 PM
If anyone is a child of an illicit affair of Catelyn's, it's Sansa. Not that I think it's even remotely possible for Catelyn to bed anyone other than her husband. Even drunk she couldn't do it.

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Oct 29th 7:17 AM
How about ensconced (spelling? in more ways than one)?

Carol
User ID: 0694274 Oct 29th 6:25 PM
I could see a scenario for Benjen. Her husband's younger, maybe warmer brother, about to go off to the Wall, never to know a woman, never to have a son...Cat's now more immune to the lure of the unattainable than the rest of us.

Ran
User ID: 0283314 Oct 29th 6:42 PM
Well, sort-of-maybe, but I don't really see it.

And, in any case, if it's Benjen, then Bran certainly isn't his son.

Although, hey, there's that line that Benjen gives Jon early in GoT -- that Jon should sire his own bastard before he makes the decision to commit to the Watch and its celibacy.

I suppose one might construe that as a reference to a bastard of Benjen's, though I think it can also be construed as a reference to Jon being a bastard himself (or at least being raised as one -- who knows what Benjen knows).

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Oct 29th 10:01 PM
Ser Gary, that sounds dreadfully fascinating. WHat on earth is "ensconced" (I know it as meaning bound to something in some sense, but maybe I am wrong). How could being ensconced lead to pregnancy?

Next 20 Messages

Stallion User ID: 1836024	Oct 20th 4:29 PM Hi I'm amazed to find that there is hardly any threads on Bran (there seems to be one devoted to all the other characters), when he is such and interesting character, and there are so many possibilities for his future. The thing that encouraged me to start this thread, though, is the last couple of pages of aCoK. When Maester Luwin is dying, he says to Bran "A good boy. Your...your father's son, Bran." I realise that this is a common figure of speech, but to me it seems out of the ordinary that Maester Luwin says something to Osha immediately without anyone hearing. (He asks for "another boon"). As crazy as it sounds it just got me wondering whether Bran may not be Ned's son. It might explain his magical abilities - green dreams, etc if in fact he isn't. Especially since Howland Reed (is he Jojen and Meera's father?) was so close to Ned, and Bran shares this strange ability with the Reed kids. (I'm suggesting that Howland Reed might be Bran's father). It might also explain why Maester Luwin always seemed disinterested with Bran's dreams, when one would think that such obvious magic would interest a Maester. Perhaps Maester Luwin knew (because he delivered the baby or however) about Bran's parentage and this is what he told Osha in the last few pages. Remember that Bran was described to have the Tully, features, too, which would mean that we have no proof from his appearance as to who his father could be. I wouldn't think that Jojen and Meera suspect that Bran might be their brother, but this is another one of the mysteries that Howland Reed might have for us (perhaps he will be the next POV).
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 20th 4:40 PM Mrmmm ..... Cat having slept with someone other than Ned? And not revealed it? And, moreover, when Howland Reed has not left the Neck for about 15 years? It's inspiredly crazy, but I'm not biting. :)
ShiftyBob User ID: 0575574	Oct 20th 5:25 PM Sorry Stallion, but that theory just doesnt add up - have to agree with Ran. There is no way that someone so moral as Cat would sleep with anyone but Ned. And the time gap.....
Min User ID: 1446254	Oct 21st 5:33 AM hmmm, I'm not sure. The stumbling in Luwin's speech may have come due to emotion. I am not sure about Cat, though. She preferred Bran over all her other children (fairness has never been something she wasd strong at). And the marriage with Ned was not a love marriage. Still, I cannot really see her bedding another man. She's just not the type. Too captures in morals and not honest enough to herself.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Oct 21st 1:47 PM Bran belongs to Ned. No question about it.
Carol User ID: 9405543	Oct 25th 6:33 PM I wouldn't put it past Cat to have an affair, but then she could hardly have kept up her resentment of Jon, and she'd have had to admit it in her own POVs, at least.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 25th 6:53 PM Don't see why she would have had one. Their relationship grew to be quite a healthy and loving one, from all we can see. If things had been very different -- if Ned had been cold or indifferent or unkind -- then maybe, one never knows.
Stallion User ID: 1836024	Oct 25th 7:05 PM Thanks Carol! I was beginning to think that this thread was going to get to 100 posting without a single person agreeing with me. :) One of the reasons that I suggested this theory is that I don't believe Cat is quite as nice and perfect as everyone thinks. Even from her POVs I get the impression that she is becoming this cold, dettached person. I realise that this may be a result of Ned's death, but I think she had it in her the whole time, and even though she married Ned happily, she was betrothed to Brandon, and I believe there was no love between Ned and Catelyn prior to their marriage. I also think that Cat's resentment of Jon is unhealthy. The whole first part of aGOT I didn't like Cat very much because she was just so mean to Jon, even when he tried to comfort her and made every attempt to be nice. I believe that this resentment may have been a result of self-pity (or guilt) because she knows that she had an illegitimate son too (Bran), and she couldn't let anyone know.
Emily User ID: 9851073	Oct 26th 7:09 AM Bran. Is. Ned's. OK? I mean, if we carry on like this for much longer, poor Ned isn't going to be left with any sons at all! If Cat had an affair, there is no way we could have had so much of her POV for so long without her once thinking of it. Look at what happened when Bran fell. Catelyn blamed herself because she'd prayed for something to happen to keep him at home. If he wasn't Ned's son, she'd be infinitely more likely to feel that the fall was a punishment for adultery. And then there's the fact that one of the first things we learn in AGOT is that Catelyn loves Ned 'with all her heart.' So I doubt she'd be sneaking off into the marshes looking for illicit sex with Mr Frog-Eater. As for the break in Luwin's voice...he was dying in agony (justice at last!) so it's not surprising. It was also pretty clear (I think) that the boon he was asking of Osha was death. But don't worry Stallion, we don't all think that Cat is nice and perfect. Read any thread and sooner or later you'll find Min spitting venom at the poor woman.
Ami User ID: 8666863	Oct 27th 12:59 PM I think the thing that proves to me that Bran is definately a Stark is his dreams thru Summer's eyes. We know Jon does it, too, and I have a hunch that Robb can and that it may have everything to do with his victories. I've always had it in my head that this was some long dead Stark trait, this connection w/animals, be it the Starks are wargs or whatever. Sorry, Stallion, I think Luwin just wanted Osha to speed up his death.
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Oct 27th 3:29 PM And if Ned wasn't Bran's father then that would make Bran a bastard. While that would be funny that would not fit with Catelyn's frosty relationship with bastards. Or since she loved Ned she hardly would love a child that wasn't his the most. So no support from me either Stallion. Sorry.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Oct 27th 5:19 PM Hey Stallion. Don't give it up. I've thrown some "strange" things out there that had them all groaning and moaning for weeks. That's often the initial reaction. Make a strong enough case in rebuttal and some will come around. I will not discount the possibility that Cat had an affair, and perhaps she hates herself for having done so and Jon all the more because of it. But don't limit yourself to Howland Reed as her partner. Bran seems to be her favorite child. Why?
Chris Greenway User ID: 9510053	Oct 28th 5:58 AM Okay one right out of blue here. I actually do believe that Bran is Ned's, but GRRM has shown us in the first two books that anything can happen. I can't see Cat having an affair with Howland Reed (does she even know the man?),but lets try this one out: Bran is a changeling. One of these Others substituted one of their own. It's far fetched and prob'ly wrong, but worth a shot and it would explain a few things about Bran.
Buffy User ID: 1105234	Oct 28th 11:55 AM Sorry - I don't see how there is anyway that Cat has had an affair. She was always the one to do her "duty". Also, she is still upset about Jon after all this time. It wouldn't fit that she also had an illicit child.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Oct 28th 12:16 PM I don't think Cat would have considered just going out and having an affair -- unless she believed Ned had done so beforehand. On that basis, she could probably justify it. I'm not totally buying into the idea that she did, mind you, but let me throw another name out there that isn't Howland Reed. How about Benjen Stark?
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Oct 28th 1:06 PM If anyone is a child of an illicit affair of Catelyn's, it's Sansa. Not that I think it's even remotely possible for Catelyn to bed anyone other than her husband. Even drunk she couldn't do it.
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Oct 29th 7:17 AM How about ensconced (spelling? in more ways than one)?
Carol User ID: 0694274	Oct 29th 6:25 PM I could see a scenario for Benjen. Her husband's younger, maybe warmer brother, about to go off to the Wall, never to know a woman, never to have a son...Cat's now more immune to the lure of the unattainable than the rest of us.
Ran User ID: 0283314	Oct 29th 6:42 PM Well, sort-of-maybe, but I don't really see it. And, in any case, if it's Benjen, then Bran certainly isn't his son. Although, hey, there's that line that Benjen gives Jon early in GoT -- that Jon should sire his own bastard before he makes the decision to commit to the Watch and its celibacy. I suppose one might construe that as a reference to a bastard of Benjen's, though I think it can also be construed as a reference to Jon being a bastard himself (or at least being raised as one -- who knows what Benjen knows).
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Oct 29th 10:01 PM Ser Gary, that sounds dreadfully fascinating. WHat on earth is "ensconced" (I know it as meaning bound to something in some sense, but maybe I am wrong). How could being ensconced lead to pregnancy?