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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Sansa VI

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Nov 28th 1:21 PM
Can anyone believe this is the sixth time we've done this?

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Nov 28th 1:30 PM
Well, if you count the Beauty and the Beast thread as posts about Sansa, its pretty neat the 1000th just on this thread. You guys just can't resist a pretty face, huh :-) <g?

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Nov 28th 1:31 PM
The last thread ended the same way the first one began: with me, Haaruk and Min defending Sandor against those (dozens? hundreds? thousands?) who consider him a hopeless case -- beyond redemption and incapable of sustaining a realistic ongoing relationship with Sansa, or anybody else for that matter.

Ser Gary
User ID: 9279843 Nov 28th 1:32 PM
LindaElane,
You beat me to my follow-up post ;( but a very good point!

Jeff
User ID: 1578334 Nov 28th 3:33 PM
Ser Gary, that's a straw man. I think I've opposed your position as consistenly as anyone and have never attacked him as a "hopeless case".

What I object to is the overly romanticized vision of Sandor that treats him as though is isn't someone who as committed horrible crimes. Just because he's shown an interest in Sansa, its assumed he has a "heart of gold". How charming. Poor little Sandor, crying for a song from his little songbird. I would dearly love to see folks who defend Sandor berate the parents of Mycah for not seeing what a wonderful person Sandor truly is.

Seems that I hear a lot about the pain Sandor has suffered -- I've never heard anything about the paid he has _caused_. When the subject is raised about the harm he knowingly and voluntarily caused to others, the subject seems to get changed very quickly and the focus always returned to _his_ pain.

I freely acknowledge that _someday_, Sandor might truly reform, become a good-hearted person, and seek and achieve redemption. But he hasn't come close to doing it yet. People make excuses for his actions as if he _already has become_ that other person that they hope he will be. I choose to see him as he is _now_, and judge him accordingly. It is my opinion that some others judge him _now_ as they hope he _will be_ in the future.

A possibility of redemption? Sure, I can see that. But right now he's still an unrepentant murderer, wallowing in his own self-pity. That's Sandor -- pitying himself while never showing an ounce of remorse for his victims. And yeah, I know "in his heart he pities them, but he's so emotionally damged he can't acknowledge it". That's why we only hear him talk to Sansa about his _own_ pain.

NoNameYet
User ID: 9454293 Nov 28th 7:18 PM
I have not really considered the Hound's redemption. I can only think of his scarred face and how Sansa goes to such lengths to avoid looking at it. Besides Sansa would be wasted on the Hound. She has too much political value to be squandered on a glorified servant.
I suppose Sandor feels his burning was punishment for all the sins he's committing now. He's suffered the consequences so why not do the actions? Maybe he'll change and become Sansa's faithful protector. But I do not see a romantic future for the two of them.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Nov 29th 4:02 AM
well, NNY, I cannot think that a little boy is punished for things he does twenty years later. Just doesn't make sense to me. And: Right now, HE would be wasted on HER. She still is a spoiled, selfish girl. She has to change, and she does.

Jeff, as you often enough said you did not consider him as a hopeless case, I often enough said that I ackowledge each and every one of his crimes as horrible. I just believe in his redemption, and I did not romanticize it - I think. AND I never said he had a heart of gold. Yes, he is the darkness. In some ways. But even that does not convince me that he could not be redeemed. I will not repeat all the arguments of mine. Perhaps it comes down to the point that I, basically, think that no crime, no dark heart is ever beyonf redemption...

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Nov 29th 9:36 AM
Jeff, my previous entry was not directed at you. It was actually rather presumptuous of you to think so. It was a generalization to kick off the topic, nothing more. I personally have never overly romanticized Sandor. I too have a problem with his crimes. Just the same, I'd like to see him become a better person, a truly productive person. That's my position. Why do you insist on carrying everything to extremes?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Nov 29th 9:51 AM
Seems to me we might as well call this thread 'Sandor' instead. :P

My slant on Sandor...I'm undecided what'll become of him.
I think Jeff argued that Sandor's laughing at riding down Mycah, showed something particularly ugly part of him.

Maybe. If we see this situation through Sandor's eyes, what do we think is most likely going through his head?

One could be tempted to believe that Sandor is laughing at what he did, killing a young, defenseless boy.
Personally I think Sandor has a rather detached slant on the whole event. (which might not be all that much better, when you think of it)

What he laughs at, is not at Mycah, nor what he has done to the boy, but at Eddard Stark. He sees Ned's shocked face, and basically thinks "Welcome to my world, Stark. How do you like it?"

haaruk Nov 29th 9:53 AM
Does anyone believe that Sansa will be a major force in Westeros? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Ser Gary
User ID: 8068153 Nov 29th 10:14 AM
Kay Arne, I personally think Sandor is laughing at that time because he doesn't know how to cry, or to show whatever might be the proper emotion from a real human being at that point in time.

Haaruk, I do think Sansa is destined to be a leader of sorts. No, not in her present condition. She'll need years of growth, maturation and evolution. But she does possess some very likeable and strong characteristics which could serve her well in this regard.

Jeff
User ID: 1578334 Nov 29th 1:40 PM
I agree with Kay-Arne as to why Sandor was laughing.

I pass on further Sandor/Sansa commentarly.

NoNameYet
User ID: 9983153 Nov 30th 1:47 PM
Min, what I meant is that maybe he's punishing the world that hurt him so badly when he was a child. He's getting back at others for the hurt done to him. Granted he's attacking the wrong people; he should just kill Gregor and be done with it.
Sansa is still a child, they tend to be spoiled and selfish little entities. But Sandor is worse because he's a murderer.
I don't see Sansa as a major power in the Seven Kingdoms. Not a queen or anything like that. But I agree with Ser Gary...she is developing in such a way that will make her an asset to Westeros.

Malice
User ID: 0826264 Nov 30th 6:02 PM
NNY said: "He should just kill Gregor and be done with it...."

I agree that Gregor should die, but as a child Sandor practically had his life taken away by the guy (as he sees it) and it seems to *me* that the only thing that makes him "go on" is the hatred that he has for his brother.

Except for maybe his position with the Lannisters, which is another reason that he'd commit murder for that little twit Joffrey.

KAH, I agree as well. Nicely put. I don't think he is a victim, he isn't, he is in the position to do something (good), and he won't. He *is* selfish, but in a few of the scenes he's had with Sansa he seems to be realizing that he's not the only one with problems.

I just don't know why it's suddenly happening now, and with her. Is she something more than a spoiled brat whose eyes are being opened at last?

I would like to see har mature and become a more interesting personality. But you can't expect that of everyone in the Seven Kingdoms. <g>

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 1st 6:06 AM
Malice;

Well, Sandor is a victim. Which of course does not make his violent acts (wrt Mycah) any less despicable.
The guy needs to get hit by a giant Clue Stick, and it seems Sansa (of all people) is gripping the Stick.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 1st 6:22 AM
Hmm...I seem to make puns without being aware of it all too often. 'Gripping the Stick', indeed. :P

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 1st 7:49 AM
Sandor _was_ a victim.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 1st 9:58 AM
'Is'...'was'...whatever.

A Clue Stick is needed in any case. :P

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 1st 10:19 AM
Haaruk, I do think that Sansa will become a force in Westeros. She has political power simply due to her status as a Stark. She is really the only link between North and South. She might be a major factor in helping rally the south to the dangers of the Others.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 1st 11:23 AM
That's not a bad idea, Jeff.

Of course, Sansa would have to get some influential position at court or some other power center in the south...

I mean, come on, just how likely is _that_? :o)

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Nov 28th 1:21 PM Can anyone believe this is the sixth time we've done this?
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Nov 28th 1:30 PM Well, if you count the Beauty and the Beast thread as posts about Sansa, its pretty neat the 1000th just on this thread. You guys just can't resist a pretty face, huh :-) <g?
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Nov 28th 1:31 PM The last thread ended the same way the first one began: with me, Haaruk and Min defending Sandor against those (dozens? hundreds? thousands?) who consider him a hopeless case -- beyond redemption and incapable of sustaining a realistic ongoing relationship with Sansa, or anybody else for that matter.
Ser Gary User ID: 9279843	Nov 28th 1:32 PM LindaElane, You beat me to my follow-up post ;( but a very good point!
Jeff User ID: 1578334	Nov 28th 3:33 PM Ser Gary, that's a straw man. I think I've opposed your position as consistenly as anyone and have never attacked him as a "hopeless case". What I object to is the overly romanticized vision of Sandor that treats him as though is isn't someone who as committed horrible crimes. Just because he's shown an interest in Sansa, its assumed he has a "heart of gold". How charming. Poor little Sandor, crying for a song from his little songbird. I would dearly love to see folks who defend Sandor berate the parents of Mycah for not seeing what a wonderful person Sandor truly is. Seems that I hear a lot about the pain Sandor has suffered -- I've never heard anything about the paid he has _caused_. When the subject is raised about the harm he knowingly and voluntarily caused to others, the subject seems to get changed very quickly and the focus always returned to _his_ pain. I freely acknowledge that _someday_, Sandor might truly reform, become a good-hearted person, and seek and achieve redemption. But he hasn't come close to doing it yet. People make excuses for his actions as if he _already has become_ that other person that they hope he will be. I choose to see him as he is _now_, and judge him accordingly. It is my opinion that some others judge him _now_ as they hope he _will be_ in the future. A possibility of redemption? Sure, I can see that. But right now he's still an unrepentant murderer, wallowing in his own self-pity. That's Sandor -- pitying himself while never showing an ounce of remorse for his victims. And yeah, I know "in his heart he pities them, but he's so emotionally damged he can't acknowledge it". That's why we only hear him talk to Sansa about his _own_ pain.
NoNameYet User ID: 9454293	Nov 28th 7:18 PM I have not really considered the Hound's redemption. I can only think of his scarred face and how Sansa goes to such lengths to avoid looking at it. Besides Sansa would be wasted on the Hound. She has too much political value to be squandered on a glorified servant. I suppose Sandor feels his burning was punishment for all the sins he's committing now. He's suffered the consequences so why not do the actions? Maybe he'll change and become Sansa's faithful protector. But I do not see a romantic future for the two of them.
Min User ID: 1446254	Nov 29th 4:02 AM well, NNY, I cannot think that a little boy is punished for things he does twenty years later. Just doesn't make sense to me. And: Right now, HE would be wasted on HER. She still is a spoiled, selfish girl. She has to change, and she does. Jeff, as you often enough said you did not consider him as a hopeless case, I often enough said that I ackowledge each and every one of his crimes as horrible. I just believe in his redemption, and I did not romanticize it - I think. AND I never said he had a heart of gold. Yes, he is the darkness. In some ways. But even that does not convince me that he could not be redeemed. I will not repeat all the arguments of mine. Perhaps it comes down to the point that I, basically, think that no crime, no dark heart is ever beyonf redemption...
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Nov 29th 9:36 AM Jeff, my previous entry was not directed at you. It was actually rather presumptuous of you to think so. It was a generalization to kick off the topic, nothing more. I personally have never overly romanticized Sandor. I too have a problem with his crimes. Just the same, I'd like to see him become a better person, a truly productive person. That's my position. Why do you insist on carrying everything to extremes?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Nov 29th 9:51 AM Seems to me we might as well call this thread 'Sandor' instead. :P My slant on Sandor...I'm undecided what'll become of him. I think Jeff argued that Sandor's laughing at riding down Mycah, showed something particularly ugly part of him. Maybe. If we see this situation through Sandor's eyes, what do we think is most likely going through his head? One could be tempted to believe that Sandor is laughing at what he did, killing a young, defenseless boy. Personally I think Sandor has a rather detached slant on the whole event. (which might not be all that much better, when you think of it) What he laughs at, is not at Mycah, nor what he has done to the boy, but at Eddard Stark. He sees Ned's shocked face, and basically thinks "Welcome to my world, Stark. How do you like it?"
haaruk	Nov 29th 9:53 AM Does anyone believe that Sansa will be a major force in Westeros? If yes, why? If not, why not?
Ser Gary User ID: 8068153	Nov 29th 10:14 AM Kay Arne, I personally think Sandor is laughing at that time because he doesn't know how to cry, or to show whatever might be the proper emotion from a real human being at that point in time. Haaruk, I do think Sansa is destined to be a leader of sorts. No, not in her present condition. She'll need years of growth, maturation and evolution. But she does possess some very likeable and strong characteristics which could serve her well in this regard.
Jeff User ID: 1578334	Nov 29th 1:40 PM I agree with Kay-Arne as to why Sandor was laughing. I pass on further Sandor/Sansa commentarly.
NoNameYet User ID: 9983153	Nov 30th 1:47 PM Min, what I meant is that maybe he's punishing the world that hurt him so badly when he was a child. He's getting back at others for the hurt done to him. Granted he's attacking the wrong people; he should just kill Gregor and be done with it. Sansa is still a child, they tend to be spoiled and selfish little entities. But Sandor is worse because he's a murderer. I don't see Sansa as a major power in the Seven Kingdoms. Not a queen or anything like that. But I agree with Ser Gary...she is developing in such a way that will make her an asset to Westeros.
Malice User ID: 0826264	Nov 30th 6:02 PM NNY said: "He should just kill Gregor and be done with it...." I agree that Gregor should die, but as a child Sandor practically had his life taken away by the guy (as he sees it) and it seems to me that the only thing that makes him "go on" is the hatred that he has for his brother. Except for maybe his position with the Lannisters, which is another reason that he'd commit murder for that little twit Joffrey. KAH, I agree as well. Nicely put. I don't think he is a victim, he isn't, he is in the position to do something (good), and he won't. He is selfish, but in a few of the scenes he's had with Sansa he seems to be realizing that he's not the only one with problems. I just don't know why it's suddenly happening now, and with her. Is she something more than a spoiled brat whose eyes are being opened at last? I would like to see har mature and become a more interesting personality. But you can't expect that of everyone in the Seven Kingdoms. <g>
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 1st 6:06 AM Malice; Well, Sandor is a victim. Which of course does not make his violent acts (wrt Mycah) any less despicable. The guy needs to get hit by a giant Clue Stick, and it seems Sansa (of all people) is gripping the Stick.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 1st 6:22 AM Hmm...I seem to make puns without being aware of it all too often. 'Gripping the Stick', indeed. :P
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 1st 7:49 AM Sandor _was_ a victim.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 1st 9:58 AM 'Is'...'was'...whatever. A Clue Stick is needed in any case. :P
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 1st 10:19 AM Haaruk, I do think that Sansa will become a force in Westeros. She has political power simply due to her status as a Stark. She is really the only link between North and South. She might be a major factor in helping rally the south to the dangers of the Others.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 1st 11:23 AM That's not a bad idea, Jeff. Of course, Sansa would have to get some influential position at court or some other power center in the south... I mean, come on, just how likely is _that_? :o)