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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Faceless Men

Next 20 Messages

Street Prophet
User ID: 1934244 Dec 1st 3:34 AM
The Faceless Men are everywhere I tells ya'. Ye poor fools, ye don't even realize how much of a puppet show ye all are.
All me to explain, ahem.
The Mad King was always a bit tipsy, but not until he went across the sea to the Free Cities and returned (remember, he used that leather choking device on Brandon in front of his father?). But when he returned he went on a self-destructive binge doing as he pleased.
Also, Illyrio, whom by the way he walks I'm assuming his fat body is not his own is also a Faceless Man "he walked on the balls of his feet like a water dancer". And I think it's safe to assume that Varys is also trained as a Faceless Man. Now why would they do this? I think it would take a better man or woman than me to figure it out. I'm just a Street Prophet.
By the way, no one seems to have pointed out the homosexual relationship between Renly and the Knight of Flowers. At the banquet Renly was talking more to Loras than to Margaery and Stannis growled to Renly than in his younger brother's bed she's liable to stay a maid. After Renly's death, Loras went into a blind rage (even Ned didn't lose it like that with Robert) and killed several people. The loss of his lover perhaps? That whole thing with Loras and Sansa, pure posturing. Didn't want everyone to let onto his actual preference (or maybe he really was just admiring her beauty, like a flower). Begone sinners!

Mike
User ID: 1084044 Dec 1st 10:40 AM
The possible homosexuality of Renly and Loras has indeed been discussed before, but I can't think of the thread at this point. I think it could be in a Clash of Kings 1.

As far as the faceless men are concerned, I don't think that Illyrio and Varys are members of the guild, though they could be associate with them somehow. Varys might have the talent for it, though I think his art of shape-shifting depends on human gullibility.

You may be on to something with the Aerys/Faceless Men theory though. But I think much more information is needed before this theory moves out of the realm of fun speculation.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 1st 11:27 AM
We have no indication that Aerys visited the Free Cities.
A choking device bought in the Free Cities? Well, Joffrey likes to play with crossbows from 'over there', and he certainly has not taken the trip over (not to buy those things, anyway). A king doesn't go to Wal-Mart; he sends his lackey there. :o)

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Dec 1st 3:26 PM
Faceless Men infiltrating Westerosi government. Things are getting truly wild here;-) Which is just as well.

Something this remined me of though, when a Faceless man changes his face I persume he can't change his body as well?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 2nd 7:55 AM
Well, if we take Jaqen as an example, it seems it's face only, but we don't know 100 % sure.

Drone
User ID: 8262993 Dec 2nd 12:36 PM
If the faceless men are so good why was Jaqen in shackles, rotting in the blackest part of the dungeon... who was he there to kill, rather who did he kill, i believe that yoren said they were all murderers or worse.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Dec 2nd 1:05 PM
For the faceless men

The palace guards are all sleeping.
Fires burn through the night
Threat of rain on the dark horizon
All that's left is a quarter moon of light.

He climbs up through the darkness.
No weapon but his surprise.
The greatest thief in this house of horrors,
enters a room where a sleeping princess lies.

All your money, your pretty necklace.
This is my work on such a night.
Storm's coming over the mountains
I'll be gone long before the morning light.

"After the rain has fallen" ... Sting

No this is not original. I find that I am rarely so creative. When I hear this tune though it makes me think of GRRM's world, at least this part of it does anyway.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 2nd 1:16 PM
Drone,

Even the best can be unlucky, or make mistakes.

If you succeed in 99 % of your assassin missions, it means you're damn good.
But it also means that sooner or later, you'll fail. In this game, that can well mean death, or in Jaqen's case, the dungeons.

LindaElane
User ID: 7733333 Dec 4th 11:16 PM
Loras and Renly being gay has been much discussed.

Keep your eyes open for how often odd phrasing crops up regarding those two. For example "He thought it queer"........"the rainbow guard"....oh, I won't go on here. But it has been very much discussed. None of care. We will all be quite happy if the Knight of Flowers is a brave and good and true gay person. We will all have a laugh if GRRM has used a lot of gay "catch phrases" with regard to Renly and Loras and then has them turn out to be straight (though at this point I doubt he will). Just keep your eyes open for things about Loras and Renly, though it is certainly true that GRRM has said nothing definitive, one way or another, about the sexuality of either character.

Swithin
User ID: 9405543 Dec 5th 5:02 AM
For the moment, Loras's lightsabre seems to go both ways... Although I sense much fear within him... Loras creeps me out, he's more disturbing than the Mountain. A regular Caligula.

It's not only the faceless men who are described as walking in an alert and sharp way. Many people are described this way within ASoIaF and other books, most people who've studied some martial art or are soldiers, actually.

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Apr 30th 1:00 PM
From the Jaqen topic before it broke down:

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 29th 1:49 PM
I don't think one just lets a Faceless Man walk around scot free. I also don't think that, once in the cells, it's easy for anyone -- even Varys -- to just let him out.

Of course, my personal favorite view is that he was Syrio, was knocked unconscious back into his true form, and Meryn Trant had a bright thought in his thick skull, tossing him into chains in the deepest cells and informing ... someone.

But once in, probably not easy to get out. Especially for Varys, I think.
Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Apr 29th 1:52 PM
Varys goes to Cersei and tells her he has a Faceless Man in the dungeon. He tells her Jaqen will do anything to get free. Special offer... Cersei should be able to join the dots. No need for all this secrecy.

The war could have gone on for years true. Or it could end in one battle. I think Robb could be too useful to Varys to just kill him off.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 29th 1:58 PM
Seems Cersei never learned of it, given that she complained of a dancing master and there's no hint she'd hiding anything at the time. While it is true that things might have gone faster, I never presume that there's no need for secrecy. ;) Although one thing that I just thought of -- Cersei may think twice of sending an assassin after Robb when they've just learned that Jaime was captured. Robb dies, does Jaime follow....?

If Varys does it as I think he might have done it, he must have had his reasons, in any case.

As for the war, not as it currently was. As it currently was, Robb would hold Tywin until KL falls to Renly, then Robb probably capitulates (hell, Robb hadn't even been proclaimed King in the North when Jaqen got picked from the dungeon) to Renly and Renly mops up with Tywin.

Far too quick, because the combined might would be rather much for even Tywin, especially with Robb west of him, Roose north of him, and Renly south. He'd be neatly trapped with nowhere to go, really.

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Apr 30th 1:04 PM
I forgot about the timing. With Jaime caught and Robb not yet having proclaimed himself King, Varys may have decided he should take secret advantage of Jaqen's imprisonment.

There are still many questions though. How exactly did Jaqen get caught in the first place and Varys find out about him? If he was Syrio then what was he doing teaching a young kid? And wouldn't Trant have told Cersei about this Faceless Man he had found? And why did Jaqen spend so much time traipsing around after Arya? And not just after she saved his life.

I can't rule out the possibility anyway and I certainly don't have an alternative. But I think we're missing a lot of information.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 30th 3:46 PM
I agree. That's what theories are borne out of -- half-assed attempts to fill in the blanks. ;)

Jaqen getting caught is a mystery. There are two predominant views, I think -- that he was the one who actually killed Jon Arryn (seems a waste of money to me, given what Varys said concerning Lord Arryn and poison) and was betrayed by his hirer, or that he was Syrio and when knocked unconscious changed into current form and tossed into jail.

For the sake of the more convoluted scheme, I'll argue the latter. Why was he teaching a kid? Well, if he wanted to hear the latest news concerning Stannis, he couldn't have done worse than become part of the Hand's household, giving him some amount of room to listen to things in the Red Keep.

Of course, what about him agreeing to go to Winterfell? Well, I have an old thought and a brand new one -- the old thought was that "Syrio" would 'drown' just after embarking, so that he can take a new identity and head on to Dragonstone after having gathered sufficient information. The brand new one ... well, maybe he is aimed up at the north. But the only reason I can figure is the insane, 'Varys works with the Others' one. Someone else can carry that banner. ;)

As for Trant? I don't think all the Kingsguard who aren't of the "true steel" are in Cersei's pocket -- I can readily believe that Trant reports to Varys first, and reports to Cersei only what Varys tells him to. But, that's speculation.

As for traipsing around after Arya ... hrm. I don't know how you mean. He felt he owed her a debt -- three lives to replace the three lives she rescued. Clearly, the Faceless Men have a very strong sense of obligation in certain directions. The rest, like offering for her to go ... Well, it's clear he seems to think she could learn to become one of the Faceless.

Flayed Man
User ID: 9147853 Apr 30th 8:55 PM
well is there any page where loras and renely act like a gay??

Lirvon May 1st 3:36 AM
Has anyone thought about why Jaquen told Arya to give the coin to any man from _Braavos_, or what "valar morghulis" means?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 1st 5:16 AM
Lirvon,

They're called the Faceless Men of Braavos .. so I presume that any man of Braavos will realize the coin and the words and go out of his way to do whatever is demanded of them, for fear that a Faceless Man will pay them a less cordial visit.

No idea on "valar morghulis" though.

Padraig
User ID: 1007814 May 1st 1:12 PM
What I meant by traiping around after Arya was if Varys orgainised his freedom from KL then did he really expect Jaqen to remain locked up with Yoren for so long? I mean once he left KL shouldn't be have just legged off instead of followig Arya north. Doesn't seem a very good plan. Jaqen was quite willing to go off by himself at the end of aCoK.

I agree about Jon Arryn.

I thought since Trant came for Sansa he must be in Cersei's books. But he maybe a double-agent.

Mysteries, mysteries;)

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 May 1st 1:25 PM
I thought Jaqen was chained up in the wagon with Rorge and Biter. He didn't have much of a choice to go North, .... or did he?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 May 1st 1:32 PM
I sure don't think he did. Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed Arya to escape the wagon.

One thing I can think of is that Jaqen was given a bit of wire or something to free himself after leaving KL ... but Yoren is much sharper than whoever imagined, and confiscated it from Jaqen.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 May 2nd 8:21 AM
Flayed Man;

Well, I don't know what you mean about Renly and Loras 'acting gay' - there's certainly no pages where they 'do the smoochies', so to speak...

The case for Renly and Loras being lovers is (more or less) summed up in the FAQ on Sulthon's King's Landing site...there should be a link somewhere at this site.

Next 20 Messages

Street Prophet User ID: 1934244	Dec 1st 3:34 AM The Faceless Men are everywhere I tells ya'. Ye poor fools, ye don't even realize how much of a puppet show ye all are. All me to explain, ahem. The Mad King was always a bit tipsy, but not until he went across the sea to the Free Cities and returned (remember, he used that leather choking device on Brandon in front of his father?). But when he returned he went on a self-destructive binge doing as he pleased. Also, Illyrio, whom by the way he walks I'm assuming his fat body is not his own is also a Faceless Man "he walked on the balls of his feet like a water dancer". And I think it's safe to assume that Varys is also trained as a Faceless Man. Now why would they do this? I think it would take a better man or woman than me to figure it out. I'm just a Street Prophet. By the way, no one seems to have pointed out the homosexual relationship between Renly and the Knight of Flowers. At the banquet Renly was talking more to Loras than to Margaery and Stannis growled to Renly than in his younger brother's bed she's liable to stay a maid. After Renly's death, Loras went into a blind rage (even Ned didn't lose it like that with Robert) and killed several people. The loss of his lover perhaps? That whole thing with Loras and Sansa, pure posturing. Didn't want everyone to let onto his actual preference (or maybe he really was just admiring her beauty, like a flower). Begone sinners!
Mike User ID: 1084044	Dec 1st 10:40 AM The possible homosexuality of Renly and Loras has indeed been discussed before, but I can't think of the thread at this point. I think it could be in a Clash of Kings 1. As far as the faceless men are concerned, I don't think that Illyrio and Varys are members of the guild, though they could be associate with them somehow. Varys might have the talent for it, though I think his art of shape-shifting depends on human gullibility. You may be on to something with the Aerys/Faceless Men theory though. But I think much more information is needed before this theory moves out of the realm of fun speculation.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 1st 11:27 AM We have no indication that Aerys visited the Free Cities. A choking device bought in the Free Cities? Well, Joffrey likes to play with crossbows from 'over there', and he certainly has not taken the trip over (not to buy those things, anyway). A king doesn't go to Wal-Mart; he sends his lackey there. :o)
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Dec 1st 3:26 PM Faceless Men infiltrating Westerosi government. Things are getting truly wild here;-) Which is just as well. Something this remined me of though, when a Faceless man changes his face I persume he can't change his body as well?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 2nd 7:55 AM Well, if we take Jaqen as an example, it seems it's face only, but we don't know 100 % sure.
Drone User ID: 8262993	Dec 2nd 12:36 PM If the faceless men are so good why was Jaqen in shackles, rotting in the blackest part of the dungeon... who was he there to kill, rather who did he kill, i believe that yoren said they were all murderers or worse.
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Dec 2nd 1:05 PM For the faceless men The palace guards are all sleeping. Fires burn through the night Threat of rain on the dark horizon All that's left is a quarter moon of light. He climbs up through the darkness. No weapon but his surprise. The greatest thief in this house of horrors, enters a room where a sleeping princess lies. All your money, your pretty necklace. This is my work on such a night. Storm's coming over the mountains I'll be gone long before the morning light. "After the rain has fallen" ... Sting No this is not original. I find that I am rarely so creative. When I hear this tune though it makes me think of GRRM's world, at least this part of it does anyway.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 2nd 1:16 PM Drone, Even the best can be unlucky, or make mistakes. If you succeed in 99 % of your assassin missions, it means you're damn good. But it also means that sooner or later, you'll fail. In this game, that can well mean death, or in Jaqen's case, the dungeons.
LindaElane User ID: 7733333	Dec 4th 11:16 PM Loras and Renly being gay has been much discussed. Keep your eyes open for how often odd phrasing crops up regarding those two. For example "He thought it queer"........"the rainbow guard"....oh, I won't go on here. But it has been very much discussed. None of care. We will all be quite happy if the Knight of Flowers is a brave and good and true gay person. We will all have a laugh if GRRM has used a lot of gay "catch phrases" with regard to Renly and Loras and then has them turn out to be straight (though at this point I doubt he will). Just keep your eyes open for things about Loras and Renly, though it is certainly true that GRRM has said nothing definitive, one way or another, about the sexuality of either character.
Swithin User ID: 9405543	Dec 5th 5:02 AM For the moment, Loras's lightsabre seems to go both ways... Although I sense much fear within him... Loras creeps me out, he's more disturbing than the Mountain. A regular Caligula. It's not only the faceless men who are described as walking in an alert and sharp way. Many people are described this way within ASoIaF and other books, most people who've studied some martial art or are soldiers, actually.
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Apr 30th 1:00 PM From the Jaqen topic before it broke down: Ran User ID: 0867924 Apr 29th 1:49 PM I don't think one just lets a Faceless Man walk around scot free. I also don't think that, once in the cells, it's easy for anyone -- even Varys -- to just let him out. Of course, my personal favorite view is that he was Syrio, was knocked unconscious back into his true form, and Meryn Trant had a bright thought in his thick skull, tossing him into chains in the deepest cells and informing ... someone. But once in, probably not easy to get out. Especially for Varys, I think. Padraig User ID: 1564944 Apr 29th 1:52 PM Varys goes to Cersei and tells her he has a Faceless Man in the dungeon. He tells her Jaqen will do anything to get free. Special offer... Cersei should be able to join the dots. No need for all this secrecy. The war could have gone on for years true. Or it could end in one battle. I think Robb could be too useful to Varys to just kill him off. Ran User ID: 0867924 Apr 29th 1:58 PM Seems Cersei never learned of it, given that she complained of a dancing master and there's no hint she'd hiding anything at the time. While it is true that things might have gone faster, I never presume that there's no need for secrecy. ;) Although one thing that I just thought of -- Cersei may think twice of sending an assassin after Robb when they've just learned that Jaime was captured. Robb dies, does Jaime follow....? If Varys does it as I think he might have done it, he must have had his reasons, in any case. As for the war, not as it currently was. As it currently was, Robb would hold Tywin until KL falls to Renly, then Robb probably capitulates (hell, Robb hadn't even been proclaimed King in the North when Jaqen got picked from the dungeon) to Renly and Renly mops up with Tywin. Far too quick, because the combined might would be rather much for even Tywin, especially with Robb west of him, Roose north of him, and Renly south. He'd be neatly trapped with nowhere to go, really.
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Apr 30th 1:04 PM I forgot about the timing. With Jaime caught and Robb not yet having proclaimed himself King, Varys may have decided he should take secret advantage of Jaqen's imprisonment. There are still many questions though. How exactly did Jaqen get caught in the first place and Varys find out about him? If he was Syrio then what was he doing teaching a young kid? And wouldn't Trant have told Cersei about this Faceless Man he had found? And why did Jaqen spend so much time traipsing around after Arya? And not just after she saved his life. I can't rule out the possibility anyway and I certainly don't have an alternative. But I think we're missing a lot of information.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Apr 30th 3:46 PM I agree. That's what theories are borne out of -- half-assed attempts to fill in the blanks. ;) Jaqen getting caught is a mystery. There are two predominant views, I think -- that he was the one who actually killed Jon Arryn (seems a waste of money to me, given what Varys said concerning Lord Arryn and poison) and was betrayed by his hirer, or that he was Syrio and when knocked unconscious changed into current form and tossed into jail. For the sake of the more convoluted scheme, I'll argue the latter. Why was he teaching a kid? Well, if he wanted to hear the latest news concerning Stannis, he couldn't have done worse than become part of the Hand's household, giving him some amount of room to listen to things in the Red Keep. Of course, what about him agreeing to go to Winterfell? Well, I have an old thought and a brand new one -- the old thought was that "Syrio" would 'drown' just after embarking, so that he can take a new identity and head on to Dragonstone after having gathered sufficient information. The brand new one ... well, maybe he is aimed up at the north. But the only reason I can figure is the insane, 'Varys works with the Others' one. Someone else can carry that banner. ;) As for Trant? I don't think all the Kingsguard who aren't of the "true steel" are in Cersei's pocket -- I can readily believe that Trant reports to Varys first, and reports to Cersei only what Varys tells him to. But, that's speculation. As for traipsing around after Arya ... hrm. I don't know how you mean. He felt he owed her a debt -- three lives to replace the three lives she rescued. Clearly, the Faceless Men have a very strong sense of obligation in certain directions. The rest, like offering for her to go ... Well, it's clear he seems to think she could learn to become one of the Faceless.
Flayed Man User ID: 9147853	Apr 30th 8:55 PM well is there any page where loras and renely act like a gay??
Lirvon	May 1st 3:36 AM Has anyone thought about why Jaquen told Arya to give the coin to any man from _Braavos_, or what "valar morghulis" means?
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 1st 5:16 AM Lirvon, They're called the Faceless Men of Braavos .. so I presume that any man of Braavos will realize the coin and the words and go out of his way to do whatever is demanded of them, for fear that a Faceless Man will pay them a less cordial visit. No idea on "valar morghulis" though.
Padraig User ID: 1007814	May 1st 1:12 PM What I meant by traiping around after Arya was if Varys orgainised his freedom from KL then did he really expect Jaqen to remain locked up with Yoren for so long? I mean once he left KL shouldn't be have just legged off instead of followig Arya north. Doesn't seem a very good plan. Jaqen was quite willing to go off by himself at the end of aCoK. I agree about Jon Arryn. I thought since Trant came for Sansa he must be in Cersei's books. But he maybe a double-agent. Mysteries, mysteries;)
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	May 1st 1:25 PM I thought Jaqen was chained up in the wagon with Rorge and Biter. He didn't have much of a choice to go North, .... or did he?
Ran User ID: 0867924	May 1st 1:32 PM I sure don't think he did. Otherwise, he wouldn't have needed Arya to escape the wagon. One thing I can think of is that Jaqen was given a bit of wire or something to free himself after leaving KL ... but Yoren is much sharper than whoever imagined, and confiscated it from Jaqen.
KAH User ID: 0541004	May 2nd 8:21 AM Flayed Man; Well, I don't know what you mean about Renly and Loras 'acting gay' - there's certainly no pages where they 'do the smoochies', so to speak... The case for Renly and Loras being lovers is (more or less) summed up in the FAQ on Sulthon's King's Landing site...there should be a link somewhere at this site.