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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Westeros' Greatest Knight II, v.2

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Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Jan 31st 4:14 AM
Take two of thread two.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Jan 31st 4:18 AM
In response to labor's last post concerning lance practice in Winterfell and the over-abundance of sword practice without other weapons figuring in, with particular attention to the Night's Watch. :)

labor,

The quintain in Winterfell is never said to be put up for special occassions. It seemed it was used at regular times, however, as Bran thought that it would be in use "this morning." At least, I read that as indicating a particular time.

Jon notes that Robb's a stronger lance than himselfb, suggesting that they certainly practiced.

In any case, the household guard of Winterfell is certainly made up primarily of guardsmen. Sword, spear, pike, and perhaps the axe are what's most important for them. Jory did extremely well, managing to make it into the top ~16 (maybe more like top 20, since it appears there was room for irregular entries such as draws) before barely losing to Lothor Brune (who made it to the same place, drawing with Ser Aron Santagar and then losing to the skilled Ser Robar.)

Harwin lost to Meryn of the Kingsguard, who certainly should count as above-average, so that was a bit of a mis-match. Same with Alyn, who got put up against Ser Balon Swann. So, I don't think anything particularly negative is being said of the men in Winterfell.

While we do hear a lot about swordsmanship, it makes sense. Even when the sword was losing some of its effiacy, it was still a primarily practiced weapon even if it wasn't a primary weapon any longer. This had partly to do with the difficulty of its use, but mostly to do because the cultural mindset had glorified it.

Then again, for a household guard, it's the spear and the sword which are primary -- so of course they'd practice most with those.

The men we see skilled in other weapons and using them as a primary we never really see practice. If Loras' longaxe is a primary in battle, we never saw him practice. The Kingsguard seem to practice the sword as a primary because, as a guard, it's easier to carry around than a longaxe or some other such weapon. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Balon Swann makes room for using his mace.

While we certainly hear a lot about sword practice being done, this probably has to do with what I said earlier -- the sword is the most important weapon to most fighters, even if they prefer some other weapon as their first choice for melee combat. The cost to possess a sword and the skill necessary to wield it effectively (much easier to use a mace or heavy axe, in many ways) gives a sort of class distinction.

The Night's Watch issue is interesting. I can certainly understand why Jon wouldn't have brought a bow, though. His hand, while making swordsmanship feasible, would probably make good archery in cold weather difficult. We know of at least one accomplished bowman, and one presumes there are rather more.

That Ser Alliser Thorne seems to have focused primarily on the sword is also interesting, but I think they know better than to try to train everyone to a wide level of basic ability. Most of their recruits aren't men who will become rangers, and if they do because such still might not be at the best health or age for complex and full training. So focus on just a couple of things.

While the sword being chosen over the spear seems puzzling, the sword is probably a good weapon simply because of its durability.

Spears and axes have most of their length as wood, so in the last push, you've got to fall back on a sword. I imagine after completing training (where, no doubt, some familiarity with other weapons is given but not yet focused on), a ranger at least will be given more opportunity to select a primary weapon he prefers. We certainly know of at least one ranger who carried an axe, and of course Gared with his short sword, etc.

I should hope we'll get a glimpse of men (especially the Night's Watch) practicing other weapons in upcoming books, particularly the bow (though we know it was done in Winterfell -- the archery targets are mentioned) but it doesn't really bother me. One just presumes it's done, we've just yet to witness it on page.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Jan 31st 9:42 AM
labor, I understand your point about dancers and miners. I would respond by saying that those activities generally are performed at a different level of intensity from fighting. We have a factual disagreement here so there's really not much more to say.

Someone mentioned earlier that there is no evidence that Jaime or Loras, for example, are physically remarkable in any way. If that is truly the case, then I find it completely implausible that they are as successful as they are.

Ran, I never responded to your point about the woman who won the SCA tournament. The percentage of individuals who participate in SCA is very low, which means that you are not getting the best male atheletes as you would in a society where most are expected to fight. I doubt most SCA participants spend anything like the practice time spent by the average knight. So, if a female is an exception and does spend a significantly greater amount of time practicing, she might obtain a qualitative advantage. I think that's different from Brienne in Westeros, because the law of diminishing returns means that whatever extra time she puts in will not result in as much of a qualitiative difference as in SCA.
KAH
User ID: 0541004 		Jan 31st 9:59 AM
But Jeff, most men _aren't_ expected to fight regularly.
'Most men' equals an overwhelming majority of peasants (who train only between battles in the odd wars), littered with perhaps 10-20% being knights, freeriders and household guards.

And especially among the knights we cannot talk about a great genetical 'fighter' group - these cover a whole range of people, from guys like Gregor, down to guys like Dontos.
All indicating that we're not talking about the best possible male athletes of the time.

I am not sure if it was mentioned specifically that the melee was 'knight only', or if freeriders and guards were allowed to attend as well, but I seem to recall they were not. (Those might make a more homogenous group, speaking in 'born athletes' terms, I suspect)
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Jan 31st 11:27 AM
Jeff,

Given that there have been some folk who have spent four hours a day preparing themselves for Crown tourney in the SCA, I think they train quite as hard as knights ever did. Indeed, some of them are probably in finer physical condition -- modern training techniques and health knowledge and all. If one looks at various archives, fighters spend an inordinate amount of time discussing techniques for conditioning.

I couldn't say whether that particular woman practiced more than most or not. Probably. But while the law of diminishing returns applies, the fact is that Brienne has -- for all intensive purposes -- a man's body. Indeed, an exceptionak man's body Broad shouldered, no breasts or hips to speak of, muscular, towering.

There have been women as tall as she -- and even taller, as I recall. There have been women as strong as she -- and certainly women who are even stronger.

I don't see the concern for this need to consider her fantasy. Bigger and stronger women have existed. Big, strong, and _fast_ women ... probably not. But I wouldn't rule it out. It's certainly not the kind of thing that would make me think, "fantasy."

I think whoever said anything about Jaime and Loras being not particularly gifted is wrong. But they're certainly good illustrations that massive size and strength isn't a necessity (they're no doubted gifted with surpassing reflexes and dexterity and such), and that (at least in the context of the melee) she had critical advantages (size, mass, gender [insofar as it kept her from being taken seriously].)

To spin this another way: it would have been PC fantasy if Brienne was a cute, 5'4", curvaceous gal who strapped on armor and beat everyone in the melee. That's a woman with a woman's average build doing the impossible.

But, of course, Martin didn't make that mistake.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Jan 31st 11:49 AM
Let me modify the above:

Quite as hard as many knights -- including tourney champions in their own day -- ever did. I can't dispute that the SCA is getting a cross-section of the least to the best as far as physical aptitude and raw talent goes. But as KAH points out, more or less, knights covered the whole spectrum.

Admittedly, your point that the very best men have a significant advantage over the very best women (using women to mean women within certain expected range of the physical norm) is quite true. However, as above, the situation isn't quite like that. I doubt the SCA has ever had a 6'9" woman (and few enough men.) But such women do exist.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Jan 31st 1:40 PM
I agree that everyone in Westeros is not a warrior. But when we add the armies together, we probably see a total military strength of at least 200,000. As a percentage of the population, I think that would be much higher than the percentage of CNA participants are in our own population. Plus, knighthoods often were awarded based on fighting ability. Over time, it would seem that members of noble families would tend to have a higher proportion of physically gifted individuals.

CNA participants may well spend 4 hours a day getting ready for a tournament. But I assume swinging a broadword is not something they were trained to do from an early age, such as we see even with little Bran and Tommen. And I imagine that most participants have full-time jobs that limit their training during non-tournament times.

If Brienne is genetically male, then I've got no quarrel. If not, then all I can do is turn to men and women today and look at how outmatched even the biggest, strongest women are by me. Even the women who are freakish. There's some steroid freak woman in "pro wrestling" here in the U.S. Don't know her name 'cause I really don't follow it. She looks incredibly impressive for either a man or woman, but you can still see the tremendous difference between her and the top level men.

The studies I've had to review for men and women showed that women had 65% of the upper body endurance of men and 55% of the upper body strength of men who were of comparable height and weight. It's a fact we just couldn't get around in trying to devise gender neutral physical tests.

If I could think of even _one_ woman athlete who even approached the physical ability of top male athletes in sports where upper body strength is important, I would find Brienne more believable. I just don't see it. That's not to say that you have to be huge or immensely strong. Larger folks tend to be slower and have not as quick reflexes. But what it does mean is that whatever size you are, you have to be physically strong for that size. Loras is not bulky, but he'd have to be strong for his size in order to wield a hearvy weapon for a significant period of time. So he ends up being very quick and dextrous. The problem Brienne and other women face is that they cannot concentrate the same amount of muscular strength in their frame as a man. A 6'9" women may be strong, but she cannot be a strong as a well-conditioned man of the same size. She'll have the disadvantage of being slower because she's large without being able to offset that by having greater strength.

Related to that is the issue of fast-twitch muscle fibers. The fact is that men have them in a much higher concentration than do women. That also will make the man much faster in muscle movement even when compared to a woman of _equal_ strength. I just can't see any woman, even a 6'9" woman, overcoming those biological realities.
Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 		Jan 31st 2:13 PM
What if Brienne is a hermaphrodite? Could that be a plausible explanation for her physical gifts? That she is a man in all respects but has the sex organs of a female, and maybe a teeny tiny peter down there.

How's that for a looney theory....or is it?!?!?!?
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Jan 31st 2:33 PM
But what, exactly, does she have to overcome? Again, we're looking at the context of the melee.

The melee is all about hitting a person and knocking them off. Brienne probably outweighs Loras by a hundred pounds (or more). And it's not mass gone to fat -- like one of the Manderlys -- which would be a detriment, but a reasonably well distributed and toned physique which has all the advantages of mass (hard to move from where it is) but none of the particular penalties of it if it's wasted.

Could we expect a person like Loras to knock a 6'9", 250+ pound person in good physical condition from a horse with ease? No.

Did he manage to do the above? Nope, which is what we'd expect to see. He rained down blow after blow on her, but while he's got good muscle endurance and reasonable strength, he wasn't quite able to rock her off her horse. This has partly to do with her horsemanship -- she kept a good seat and seemed able to keep Loras from getting her horse to make any movements that would mess with that -- and partly to do with her mass (250+ pound person+ 50-65 pound armor).

In the end, I find it entirely feasible she won. Not because of PCism, but because of the qualities she brought to the melee (gender kept her relatively safe for awhile, and that size and mass certainly helps, and then she certainly can't be called unskilled.) I've pointed out before that if it were a real battle, she'd have been killed -- Loras totally controlled that fight.

In fact, look at the whole thing. She defeats Red Ronnet (we don't know how, precisely, though there's a reference to her morningstar being wielded to deadly effect.) Then two men attack her, and she and her horse show extremely good co-ordination -- she hits one guy in the face when he's caught by surprise, and the other is hit by the horse's steel-shod hoof. And then Loras ... who, as I said, controlled the fight. Never once was hit, while raining down blows and then disarming her.

Brienne isn't in Loras' league, clearly. I suppose I'll reassess things and say that I'd put her in the top 100 without any particular reservation, but I don't find her to be a fantastical creation or PCness.

Rhoe,

I kind of considered it as a possibility. I don't know how I feel about the thought. It kind of gives a distinct ... weirdness to things. I'd stick it as a very vague sorta-maybe kind of thing . Certainly, if it were true, it'd certainly explain the win in the melee -- but there are other, more supportable ways to do the same, I guess.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Jan 31st 4:30 PM
Found an interesting article by a published Ph.D in exercise physiology, Dr. Stephen Seiler. You can read it at:

http://www.krs.hia.no/~stephens/gender.htm

There's some differences from the information Jeff responded to (an issue which isn't addressed, and I'm looking to see if I can find anything more dealing with these issues), mainly having to do with musculature. These differences may be because this essay on the subject seems to have been written in 1996 or perhaps even earlier.

Still, though it's just one report, there are some rather interesting conclusions. Not at all definitive, but it at least provides one way to look at it.

I think the most important thing to note would be the Muscle Strength and Power bit. Taking into account size and bodyfat differences between the genders, only a 5% difference was shown between the genders as far as power goes.

While this was a measure of lower body strength (done on a bicycle ergometer), applying the same principles to the figures provided for upper body strength (women on average 60% weaker) suggests something like a 15-20% difference (rough figure because I'm trying to approximate the differences in body fat distribution in the upper body between men and women) in power output between men and women.

What this means? Well, yes, there's certainly a distinct difference in power outputs, though it hinges overwhelmingly with maximal oxygen consumption.

But this issue gets interesting because of how it applies to Brienne. She clearly shows glandular problems (impacting size, build, bodyfat distribution, facial features, etc.) and probably some increased levels of testosterone production (impacting musculature, reduced body fat.)

She's the sort of abnormal who is not precisely the same as the male average standard, but comes closer than women generally can. Since controlled tests tend to try to choose subjects who fit sort norm ranges, the fact is that they can't take reasonably into account highly unusual and irregular patterns.

Also, as a reminder, this is just one essay. Can't draw any real lasting conclusions, but it's a bit of scientific support.

I think the most important factor to determine Brienne's skill and such has to do with a difference between the studies and reports Jeff's seen and this one. Dr. Seiler states that there is no appreciable difference between male and female skeletal muscle, with the distribution of slow and fast muscle fiber being the same (within certain margins of error.)

On the other hand, other reports seem to suggest that men have a higher concentration of the fast muscle fiber than women.

So ... this would make a big difference. However, even if the report is off on the soft/fast fiber distribution issue, these are drawing from more normalized cases. But Brienne doesn't fall into norms, one can presume, because of the obvious glandular and probable hormonal abnormalities that led to the described physique.

These differences, primarily having to do with hormone balances (i.e., increased testosterone levels) would effect development through life -- and would, I believe, impact the density and proportion of slow and fast muscle fibre, bringing it closer in line with standard male physique.

So ... Brienne's certainly in a position where one might consider her 'beyond the best.' She's sort of a natural example of what a woman might become if taking maximal and optimal amounts of anabolic steroids.

Of course, the glandular and hormonal problems have some obvious and unobvious effects. The least obvious, but the most troublesome, is the fact that she'll be lucky to make it much past 40. Hearts tend to give out in such cases.
Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 		Jan 31st 6:17 PM
For a while when I was a fencer I had been beaten by one or two people much smaller than me with less reach and less muscles. Nevertheless their strength was their automatic response to parry and thrust. I needed more time to check their moves, I was not as well trained. One of my fencing masters was a woman who was much smaller than my Israeli and Hungarian master, but again her quickness and accuracy were due more to her ability to think fast and act on instinct rather than reach and muscle.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Feb 1st 9:46 AM
Ran, you're correct that the differences are smaller in terms of lower body strength. Upper body is where the men have the big advantage. I rather liked the hermaphrodite thing -- maybe she's not a pure hermaphrodite but is at least incapable of having kids. That makes it more believable to me.

Ran, we may be closer than I thought. As far as the melee, I can see her winning through a combination of very good luck -- in terms of not having to fight many guys - and skill. Certainly, winning a one-on-one melee with Loras seems within the realm of possibility given the scenario you presented. I can accept her being superior to the average knight -- maybe at the "very good" level or the low end of the top 100. I still picture a woman that size being very slow but I can accept a unique individual being able to minimize that gender-typing.

Street, if it were fencing I would be much more acceptable of Brienne's prowess because fencing does not involve heavy armor and the heavy weapons needed to affect someone wearing such armor. So, quickness with a very light weapon can overcome a strength advantage.

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 		Feb 2nd 1:53 AM
That's true Jeff, that's true.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Feb 2nd 9:41 AM
Ran, this might sound dumb but I attended a pro basketball game last night and they also had some members of the local women's pro team in attendance as well. Now, almost every (maybe all) male pro -- regardless of height -- can dunk a ball. There was a 5'7" guy who won the NBA dunking contest a few years ago. It was amazing seeing a man that small get that high up through sheer leg strength. I've _never_ seen any woman of any height dunk, though supposedly there's some 7'3" polish woman who may be able to dunk. They just don't have the power to get off the ground, and its in leg strength where women come closest to men.

Okay, I realize this is purely anecdotal and bears little relation to fighting. But its this sort daily observation that make me so skeptical about even rough approzimations of physical ability. BTW, no need to point out the analytical flaws in making this comparison. I know they're there. Maybe I'm just making an excuse for my apparent sexism. :-)
Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 		Feb 2nd 11:17 AM
A couple of years ago there was a lady in the NCAA who supposedly could dunk. I never saw her actually do it, but she was close on the attempts I saw in a practice situation with no one trying to defend the goal. Even in the most ideal circumstances, she was unable to accomplish it.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 2nd 11:55 AM
My favorite article on the whole mess with women's basketball was the one that asked, essentially, "Who the hell cares about dunking?"

The showboating involved certainly doesn't support the idea of basketball as a team sport. I think the early 70's was the high point of basketball, myself, though I must admit a fondness for the early-to-mid 80's.

But, to stay on topic, I'm not sure if it ought to be an issue whether these women can dunk or not. There's the difference in oxygen consumption, and then there's the fact that women tend to have more fat-to-muscle ratios than men, even in top form.
So, unless all these women look more like men with long hair, you can't expect them to jump.

On the other hand, Brienne's description is pretty close to masculine. Again, there are hormonal and glandular things going on which you'll not find in any female atheletes (though you once got close, re: anabolic steroid abuse among women.) And the reason for not finding it is that it tends _not_ to be helpful overall. Their hearts give out too easily (which, right there, probably denies any who are interested in sports a chance to partake in organized events), their bones are often weak, they may have strength and size but no speed, etc.

That Brienne is unique, of course, can't be denied. The combination of glandular and hormonal inbalances leading to size, strength, relative speed, and decent health probably hasn't happened before (though I couldn't say with any certainity.) That's not to say it never did or never could, however. With the right roll of the dice, someone coming out like Brienne probably isn't unlikely.
Jeff
User ID: 1536664 		Feb 2nd 12:58 PM
Good points, Ran. It sounds like what you're saying is that Brienne is unique not only in Westeros, but also unique to any woman we've seen in the RL. Excessive male hormones, whatever. So I guess that's my problem. Everyone else in Westeros -- magic aside -- seems to be like us. Nothing says Martin can't invent a Brienne, but it seems out of keeping with the strong element of realism present in the rest of the story.

BTW, there are a lot of women in the RL whose for whom an unbiased description may sound a lot like a man. Martina Navratilova always struck me as masculine, and there are a lot of other female athletes that appear much more masculine than the typical woman. But even those women still don't dunk and are decidely outmatched by high performing men.

I agree about the basketball. Dunks are okay, but they count no more than a nice 15 foot jump shot, the shooting of which appears to be a lost art.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 2nd 1:28 PM
Which is why Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were my favorite players in the NBA. Great shooters, great passers, great team players, great leaders.

Remarkable trivia: Magic's playing basketball for a Swedish team, in Sweden. Or at least several games with them. Damned if I didn't find out too late to get tickets to a game in Gothenburg.

Back to topic, hrm... Is Gregor Clegane all that probable? How many 7'8"+ men are muscled like oxen? I haven't seen them yet, but I can't say it couldn't happen. Same with Brienne. A 15-year-old virtuso defeating experienced, talented champions in their prime is kind of improbable as well -- but, hey, could happen. Has happened, in some sports.
Padraig
User ID: 2052144 		Feb 3rd 12:32 PM
Brienne has no brothers has she?
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 3rd 12:51 PM
I doubt it, since it's not mentioned in the text or the appendixes and it would sort of take away something from the character, but I suppose it might be possible. At least, she might have had a brother who died young or some such.
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