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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Loras is a genius

Next 20 Messages

Richard Kraus
User ID: 7670483 Dec 8th 6:57 PM
Although I am probably something else, because this only just occurred to me, after all this time, whereas I'm sure it was obvious to everyone else. When Loras Tyrell hears about Renly's death, he is supposed to have gone mad with rage, and killed his fellow rainbow guards who were in the tent just after Renly died. Mad rage? Why didn't he immediately ride in pursuit of Catelyn and Brienne to kill them too? Rage had nothing to do with it. He just didn't want anyone around who had actually seen Renly's corpse, which is also why he dragged the corpse away with him. That way, Stannis' army would believe that Loras was Renly when he was wearing Renly's armor. No wonder the Tyrells went over to the Lannister side so easily; Loras was already planning to fall on Stannis' rear even before the alliance with the Lannisters was made. Many of us have speculated that the Tyrells plan to betray the Lannisters. While this doesn't prove such, it suggests to me the probability that that will happen.

Swithin Dec 8th 9:22 PM
Elegant point. Have you seen Kurosawa's Kagemusha? As to Loras being a genius, it may be true yet he as of yet doesn't understand that it doesn't make him infallible. He's a master of suggestion, and may have many more talents (Renly? Do you have anything to add?), but he's acquiring power in the worst kind of way... He'll die before the age of 33, I suspect. He never was one for subtlety...

haaruk Dec 8th 10:45 PM
Coincidentally, I posted this on the >Parallels< board earlier.

Achilles. Greatest warrior of the Greeks against the Pride of Troy.

Loras Tyrell. Martin inverts the Patroclus, Achilles relationship. In Homer's Iliad the two are generally considered to be sexually involved with Achilles bisexual. Patroclus dies at the hands of Hector while wearing his lovers armor. Achilles then avenges his death in battle with Hector.

A similar but inverted scenario in ACOK. Renly and Loras, who are quite possibly lovers are allies against Stannis. Renly is killed by Stannis. Loras puts on Renly's armor and the greatest warrior of the southern forces, similar to Achilles before the walls of Troy, takes revenge against Stannis's army outside the gates of King's Landing.

Loras Tyrell. The Shadow of Achilles.

Richard Kraus
User ID: 7670483 Dec 8th 11:57 PM
Thanks, Swithin. I haven't seen _Kagemusha_, so if you could perhaps make explicit the allusion that I'm missing, I would appreciate it. :) In response to your other points, I wouldn't say it's the "worst" way. Agathocles acquired power in the worst way; the Tyrells are just bad. :) As to his dying before reaching 33, why? First, even if he is not very subtle, and I must say he seems subtle enough to me, who says subtlety is an asset in politics? Hobbes argues that it's just as easily a liability.
Haaruk, that's a very interesting point. Patroclus wore Achilles' armor to make both the Argives and the Trojans think that Achilles had rejoined the battle. After Hector kills Patroclus, he takes the armor. Achilles then acquires new armor from Hephaestus; the new shield, with its depiction of the entire world of the ancient Greeks, is especially significant. What are we to make of this? In the context of Westeros, a shield would bear a symbol, a coat-of-arms, but it is Stannis who gains a new symbol, that of the Lord of Light. Another interesting not-quite-parallel is that where Hector tries to burn the ships of the invader, Tyrion succeeds in burning Stannis' ships. What might any of this mean?
Lastly, did I somehow get the censored version of this story?:) Where does it say that Loras and Renly were having sex?:)

Swithin Dec 9th 2:12 AM
Mr. Kraus, Loras and Renly being lovers is taken as canon. It's been discussed to death elsewhere, and if you want to find a list of quotes and passages basically proving this, you could look in the Clash of Kings I topic.

Kagemusha is (in my opinion) Kurosawa's most visually stunning movie, yet another based on a very old tale. The king's brother, fearing that his attempts to fool the army into thinking that the king is always safe by riding around in his brother's armor when needed are becoming less convincing, tries to find a closer duplicate. He finds a thief whose execution is to be the next day, who is played by the same actor as the king. Eventually, the thief assumes the identity of his king, and his king's house and heritage.

Loras's situation and motive might be different, but I could see how after his lover's death he could want to assume Renly's identity, along with all the symbols of virility associated. Being the leader of an army at age seventeen isn't a bad incentive, either. His fatal flaw is that he's taking too many risks. It worked for Alexander, but Loras is not Alexander. Alexander was a God thrice over, and I'll be quite pissed if this parallel continues.

Haaruk, the Achilles parallel kicks ass. I wonder if GRRM has been reading some Gene Wolfe lately...

haaruk Dec 9th 4:09 AM
Richard, in ACOK there are some veiled and some not so veiled allusions to Renly's sexual preferences. Mostly from Stannis.

Richard
User ID: 7670483 Dec 9th 5:32 AM
I realize it's been widely discussed, and I recall Stannis' remarks, but Stannis is not what I'd call an objective source on Renly. The thing of it is, if Renly and Loras were lovers, then Loras' reaction to Renly's death could be more believably ascribed to a heartbroken frenzy. Since I'm arguing that it was actually the result of calculated murder for political reasons, I'm less inclined to believe that Loras and Renly were lovers just on the word of Stannis, of all people.
When Catelyn was in the Vale in aGoT, she is much more explicit about saying that Lyn Corbray, one of Lysa's suitors, is gay. She says nothing of the kind when she visits Renly. She might not know, but.... I prefer the idea of Loras as a calculating power-monger.:) After all, if the Tyrell's are motivated just by loyalty to Renly's ghost, they won't last a minute against the Lannisters.:)
And please, Swithin, just Richard, okay? :)

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 9th 9:06 AM
Richard;

Of all people, you should in fact believe Stannis above all others. This is a man obsessed with truth, justice and correctness.

Just witness the aCoK prologue, where he dictates the letter about the incest. He moves to strike Robert as 'beloved' brother, as well as naming Jaime _Ser_, only for the reason that this is the truth. Stannis would not say what he did about Renly, unless he was certain about it's validity.

Richard
User ID: 7670483 Dec 9th 7:00 PM
True enough, but Stannis, it should be noted, does not explicitly say that Renly is gay, he only implies it. Also, if memory serves, Stannis says nothing about Loras in this regard. Now, it isn't clear how exactly like Medieval Europe Westeros is in regard to attitudes toward homosexuality, but if it is basically similar, than one would think that Stannis, had he any concrete knowledge about Renly, would say so explicitly for propaganda reasons. Because he only implies it, he may only suspect, or he may just want to insult Renly. After all, I wouldn't consider it lying to call someone, oh, a bastard, for example, if the person's parents are married; it's just an insult, not a lie, per se. :) Also, is there any textual evidence other than that from Stannis?
This is not to say that I necessarily think Renly is straight. I am inclined to think, however, and I'm reluctant to bring this up, that people might be jumping to conclusions about Loras simply because he's called the knight of flowers. I mean, the evidence, or lack thereof, that Robb, for instance, might be gay, is no weaker than for Loras. After all, Robb's attachment to Theon, which Theon sees as fraternal, might well be something else. Also, Robb seems rather disinterested in women, especially for a teen-age male. And yet, while I realize there has been some speculation about Robb, his being gay is hardly considered "canonical," even though the evidence no more lacking than for Loras.
I am more inclined to think that both Robb and Loras are perhaps like Xenophon's Cyrus, who was so focused on winning and on achieving power that sex and romance simply don't appeal to him.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 10th 9:29 AM
Richard;

I don't think Stannis is the kind of guy who would use his knowledge (such as it is) in pure propaganda measures. Well did he spread the word about Cersei and Jaime's incest, but that was necessary to highlight that his claim was the best. Renly had no better claim than him in the first place, so he would not need to propagandate Renly for that.

Besides, unless he had proof, people would just call it petty slander. Which, BTW, was the reason that he didn't go to Robert with his suspicion about Cersei and Jaime - he needed proof.

Padraig
User ID: 9600383 Dec 10th 3:17 PM
Richard the main arguments for Loras been gay are what Stannis said, his close relationship with Renly, his killing of the two Rainbow Guard and Mace Tyrells claim that Margarey is still a virgin. Renly was married to her for a good time. Each could be explained away but taken together I think there is a strong chance that he is gay.

And Robb? Well he hasn't had a chance to hang out with young women because he is too busy upholding the Stark honour to worry about such "minor" things as his own pleasure. Can't say for sure of course either way but i'd be very surprised if i've got things backwards.

Padraig
User ID: 9600383 Dec 10th 3:55 PM
Richard, the main reasons to believe Renly was gay are Stannis's hint, his close relationship with Loras, Loras's killing of the two rainbow guard and considering how long Renly was married Mace Tyrell's assertion that Margarey was still a virgin. Individually one could explain each one but taken as a whole I think there is a strong possibility that he is gay.

And Robb? Well he is too busy being a good Stark to think about such minor things as himself. We've never even seen him with another young woman. I'd be very surprised if I have things backwards. Its a pity because I liked your theory.

Padraig
User ID: 9600383 Dec 10th 3:57 PM
Can I post here?

Padraig
User ID: 9600383 Dec 10th 3:58 PM
Can I post here?

Padraig
User ID: 9600383 Dec 10th 3:59 PM
Can I post here?

Padraig
User ID: 1125704 Dec 11th 10:58 AM
Embarrasing. And again embarrasing;-) I couldn't see any of these posts and now they are all here

haaruk Dec 12th 10:40 AM
Richard, whether Renly was gay or not. And whatever sexual orientation Loras adheres to, the fact is the youngest male Tyrell is a phenomenon. A physical and mental prodigy who plays for keeps and may already be skilled in the game of thrones. Loras does not take his martial skills for granted. He seems to always be looking for an edge. A means to bend both the odds and the terms of conflict to his advantage. Your assessment of Mace Tyrell's offspring from the perspective of character I believe is accurate.

Mr. Mystery Dec 13th 12:30 PM
Mr. Mystery says that Loras is the Knoght of Losers and will die a horrible death at the hands of Stannis!

Snake
User ID: 9286933 Dec 13th 11:05 PM
Tywin thought up the Renly's ghost not Loras.

Ran
User ID: 8075153 Dec 14th 7:03 AM
I don't think one can say that unequivocally.

It would fit Tywin to come up with such a plan. On the other hand, all indications say it could fit Loras to do it as well. Either one goes with the idea that he decided to extract vengeance by taking on the guise of his dead king/friend/lover(?) or he made a calculated decision to make the greatest possible military impact on Stannis (i.e., Richard Kraus' idea.)

I don't know. I prefer the idea of Loras. It makes it rather more personal, doesn't it?

Next 20 Messages

Richard Kraus User ID: 7670483	Dec 8th 6:57 PM Although I am probably something else, because this only just occurred to me, after all this time, whereas I'm sure it was obvious to everyone else. When Loras Tyrell hears about Renly's death, he is supposed to have gone mad with rage, and killed his fellow rainbow guards who were in the tent just after Renly died. Mad rage? Why didn't he immediately ride in pursuit of Catelyn and Brienne to kill them too? Rage had nothing to do with it. He just didn't want anyone around who had actually seen Renly's corpse, which is also why he dragged the corpse away with him. That way, Stannis' army would believe that Loras was Renly when he was wearing Renly's armor. No wonder the Tyrells went over to the Lannister side so easily; Loras was already planning to fall on Stannis' rear even before the alliance with the Lannisters was made. Many of us have speculated that the Tyrells plan to betray the Lannisters. While this doesn't prove such, it suggests to me the probability that that will happen.
Swithin	Dec 8th 9:22 PM Elegant point. Have you seen Kurosawa's Kagemusha? As to Loras being a genius, it may be true yet he as of yet doesn't understand that it doesn't make him infallible. He's a master of suggestion, and may have many more talents (Renly? Do you have anything to add?), but he's acquiring power in the worst kind of way... He'll die before the age of 33, I suspect. He never was one for subtlety...
haaruk	Dec 8th 10:45 PM Coincidentally, I posted this on the >Parallels< board earlier. Achilles. Greatest warrior of the Greeks against the Pride of Troy. Loras Tyrell. Martin inverts the Patroclus, Achilles relationship. In Homer's Iliad the two are generally considered to be sexually involved with Achilles bisexual. Patroclus dies at the hands of Hector while wearing his lovers armor. Achilles then avenges his death in battle with Hector. A similar but inverted scenario in ACOK. Renly and Loras, who are quite possibly lovers are allies against Stannis. Renly is killed by Stannis. Loras puts on Renly's armor and the greatest warrior of the southern forces, similar to Achilles before the walls of Troy, takes revenge against Stannis's army outside the gates of King's Landing. Loras Tyrell. The Shadow of Achilles.
Richard Kraus User ID: 7670483	Dec 8th 11:57 PM Thanks, Swithin. I haven't seen _Kagemusha_, so if you could perhaps make explicit the allusion that I'm missing, I would appreciate it. :) In response to your other points, I wouldn't say it's the "worst" way. Agathocles acquired power in the worst way; the Tyrells are just bad. :) As to his dying before reaching 33, why? First, even if he is not very subtle, and I must say he seems subtle enough to me, who says subtlety is an asset in politics? Hobbes argues that it's just as easily a liability. Haaruk, that's a very interesting point. Patroclus wore Achilles' armor to make both the Argives and the Trojans think that Achilles had rejoined the battle. After Hector kills Patroclus, he takes the armor. Achilles then acquires new armor from Hephaestus; the new shield, with its depiction of the entire world of the ancient Greeks, is especially significant. What are we to make of this? In the context of Westeros, a shield would bear a symbol, a coat-of-arms, but it is Stannis who gains a new symbol, that of the Lord of Light. Another interesting not-quite-parallel is that where Hector tries to burn the ships of the invader, Tyrion succeeds in burning Stannis' ships. What might any of this mean? Lastly, did I somehow get the censored version of this story?:) Where does it say that Loras and Renly were having sex?:)
Swithin	Dec 9th 2:12 AM Mr. Kraus, Loras and Renly being lovers is taken as canon. It's been discussed to death elsewhere, and if you want to find a list of quotes and passages basically proving this, you could look in the Clash of Kings I topic. Kagemusha is (in my opinion) Kurosawa's most visually stunning movie, yet another based on a very old tale. The king's brother, fearing that his attempts to fool the army into thinking that the king is always safe by riding around in his brother's armor when needed are becoming less convincing, tries to find a closer duplicate. He finds a thief whose execution is to be the next day, who is played by the same actor as the king. Eventually, the thief assumes the identity of his king, and his king's house and heritage. Loras's situation and motive might be different, but I could see how after his lover's death he could want to assume Renly's identity, along with all the symbols of virility associated. Being the leader of an army at age seventeen isn't a bad incentive, either. His fatal flaw is that he's taking too many risks. It worked for Alexander, but Loras is not Alexander. Alexander was a God thrice over, and I'll be quite pissed if this parallel continues. Haaruk, the Achilles parallel kicks ass. I wonder if GRRM has been reading some Gene Wolfe lately...
haaruk	Dec 9th 4:09 AM Richard, in ACOK there are some veiled and some not so veiled allusions to Renly's sexual preferences. Mostly from Stannis.
Richard User ID: 7670483	Dec 9th 5:32 AM I realize it's been widely discussed, and I recall Stannis' remarks, but Stannis is not what I'd call an objective source on Renly. The thing of it is, if Renly and Loras were lovers, then Loras' reaction to Renly's death could be more believably ascribed to a heartbroken frenzy. Since I'm arguing that it was actually the result of calculated murder for political reasons, I'm less inclined to believe that Loras and Renly were lovers just on the word of Stannis, of all people. When Catelyn was in the Vale in aGoT, she is much more explicit about saying that Lyn Corbray, one of Lysa's suitors, is gay. She says nothing of the kind when she visits Renly. She might not know, but.... I prefer the idea of Loras as a calculating power-monger.:) After all, if the Tyrell's are motivated just by loyalty to Renly's ghost, they won't last a minute against the Lannisters.:) And please, Swithin, just Richard, okay? :)
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 9th 9:06 AM Richard; Of all people, you should in fact believe Stannis above all others. This is a man obsessed with truth, justice and correctness. Just witness the aCoK prologue, where he dictates the letter about the incest. He moves to strike Robert as 'beloved' brother, as well as naming Jaime _Ser_, only for the reason that this is the truth. Stannis would not say what he did about Renly, unless he was certain about it's validity.
Richard User ID: 7670483	Dec 9th 7:00 PM True enough, but Stannis, it should be noted, does not explicitly say that Renly is gay, he only implies it. Also, if memory serves, Stannis says nothing about Loras in this regard. Now, it isn't clear how exactly like Medieval Europe Westeros is in regard to attitudes toward homosexuality, but if it is basically similar, than one would think that Stannis, had he any concrete knowledge about Renly, would say so explicitly for propaganda reasons. Because he only implies it, he may only suspect, or he may just want to insult Renly. After all, I wouldn't consider it lying to call someone, oh, a bastard, for example, if the person's parents are married; it's just an insult, not a lie, per se. :) Also, is there any textual evidence other than that from Stannis? This is not to say that I necessarily think Renly is straight. I am inclined to think, however, and I'm reluctant to bring this up, that people might be jumping to conclusions about Loras simply because he's called the knight of flowers. I mean, the evidence, or lack thereof, that Robb, for instance, might be gay, is no weaker than for Loras. After all, Robb's attachment to Theon, which Theon sees as fraternal, might well be something else. Also, Robb seems rather disinterested in women, especially for a teen-age male. And yet, while I realize there has been some speculation about Robb, his being gay is hardly considered "canonical," even though the evidence no more lacking than for Loras. I am more inclined to think that both Robb and Loras are perhaps like Xenophon's Cyrus, who was so focused on winning and on achieving power that sex and romance simply don't appeal to him.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 10th 9:29 AM Richard; I don't think Stannis is the kind of guy who would use his knowledge (such as it is) in pure propaganda measures. Well did he spread the word about Cersei and Jaime's incest, but that was necessary to highlight that his claim was the best. Renly had no better claim than him in the first place, so he would not need to propagandate Renly for that. Besides, unless he had proof, people would just call it petty slander. Which, BTW, was the reason that he didn't go to Robert with his suspicion about Cersei and Jaime - he needed proof.
Padraig User ID: 9600383	Dec 10th 3:17 PM Richard the main arguments for Loras been gay are what Stannis said, his close relationship with Renly, his killing of the two Rainbow Guard and Mace Tyrells claim that Margarey is still a virgin. Renly was married to her for a good time. Each could be explained away but taken together I think there is a strong chance that he is gay. And Robb? Well he hasn't had a chance to hang out with young women because he is too busy upholding the Stark honour to worry about such "minor" things as his own pleasure. Can't say for sure of course either way but i'd be very surprised if i've got things backwards.
Padraig User ID: 9600383	Dec 10th 3:55 PM Richard, the main reasons to believe Renly was gay are Stannis's hint, his close relationship with Loras, Loras's killing of the two rainbow guard and considering how long Renly was married Mace Tyrell's assertion that Margarey was still a virgin. Individually one could explain each one but taken as a whole I think there is a strong possibility that he is gay. And Robb? Well he is too busy being a good Stark to think about such minor things as himself. We've never even seen him with another young woman. I'd be very surprised if I have things backwards. Its a pity because I liked your theory.
Padraig User ID: 9600383	Dec 10th 3:57 PM Can I post here?
Padraig User ID: 9600383	Dec 10th 3:58 PM Can I post here?
Padraig User ID: 9600383	Dec 10th 3:59 PM Can I post here?
Padraig User ID: 1125704	Dec 11th 10:58 AM Embarrasing. And again embarrasing;-) I couldn't see any of these posts and now they are all here
haaruk	Dec 12th 10:40 AM Richard, whether Renly was gay or not. And whatever sexual orientation Loras adheres to, the fact is the youngest male Tyrell is a phenomenon. A physical and mental prodigy who plays for keeps and may already be skilled in the game of thrones. Loras does not take his martial skills for granted. He seems to always be looking for an edge. A means to bend both the odds and the terms of conflict to his advantage. Your assessment of Mace Tyrell's offspring from the perspective of character I believe is accurate.
Mr. Mystery	Dec 13th 12:30 PM Mr. Mystery says that Loras is the Knoght of Losers and will die a horrible death at the hands of Stannis!
Snake User ID: 9286933	Dec 13th 11:05 PM Tywin thought up the Renly's ghost not Loras.
Ran User ID: 8075153	Dec 14th 7:03 AM I don't think one can say that unequivocally. It would fit Tywin to come up with such a plan. On the other hand, all indications say it could fit Loras to do it as well. Either one goes with the idea that he decided to extract vengeance by taking on the guise of his dead king/friend/lover(?) or he made a calculated decision to make the greatest possible military impact on Stannis (i.e., Richard Kraus' idea.) I don't know. I prefer the idea of Loras. It makes it rather more personal, doesn't it?