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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Sandor & Tyrion

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Ami
User ID: 8666863 Dec 14th 11:46 AM
Sandor hates Tyrion, not quite as much as his brother but there is definately so serious animosity thrown Tyrion's way. And it goes beyond the battle at Blackwater, we see a bit of this at the beginning of GoT at Winterfell when Sandor picks on him. But Tyrion seems totally indifferent toward Sandor, and in fact, recognizes that he needs him to lead a sortie duing the battle. We don't have a whole lot of clues and I'm hoping GRRM touches on it later, but I was thinking maybe he's envious that Tyrion truly enjoys life despite his disfigurement. I love Tyrion's quote to Jon "Never forget what you are for the world surely will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you." Sandor could've used that advice when he was young ;) (but then we wouldn't have such a great character to discuss.)
Or could it be some conflict at the Rock that has yet to be revealed?
Any thoughts?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Dec 14th 1:43 PM
Perhaps Sandor is taking his duties of serving as Joffrey's shield beyond mere physical defense.
After all, Joffrey is said to be fond of his dog, Tyrion and Joff have never gotten along, and Tyrion has a sharp tongue and a nimble wit, whereas Joff is sadly lacking in both departments.

I even think it was hinted early in aGoT (the scene you refer to, Ami) that Sandor has served as Joff's verbal defense against Tyrion before as well.
Tyrion thinking; 'They always played this mummer's farce' (or something to that effect).

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 14th 3:58 PM
I think Sandor struck at Tyrion because Tyrion, as a disfigured dwarf, was an easy target. Simple cruelty, really. Plus, knowing Sandor's loathing of knighhood and nobility, it must have pleased him to be able to take free shots at a Lannister.

Snake
User ID: 9286933 Dec 14th 6:39 PM
But Sandor mentioned that he should have killed the Imp years ago. Why is that?

haaruk Dec 15th 0:23 AM
Ami is correct in her assessment. Tyrion loves life. Despite his physical deformities and the jibes of the populace he squeezes every morsel of passion from each moment and each day. Cercei is correct. Tyrion wants to be loved. The little man has a large capacity to give and receive the same. Sandor hates his life. Except when he's using his sword. The antithesis of how Tyrion approaches his situation. Sandor is jealous of how Tyrion has adjusted to his physical shortcomings. Without self pity and recrimination. That is why Sandor says "I want him burned". He wants to adjusts Tyrions circumstances to his level and say "I told you so, life and everyone in it is crap". He does not understand how Tyrion has adapted.

The idea that he is just being cruel is completely superficial.

Street Prophet
User ID: 1934244 Dec 15th 0:48 AM
I don't know, that "I should have killed him years ago" seems to imply that a real conflict of interests occurred some years ago. Sandor thinks Tyrion did something (real or imagined) to inflict some grievance on him.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 15th 8:10 AM
Haaruk, I don't disagree with the motives you provide for Sandor. But I'm a little mystified as to why this doesn't qualify as cruelty. Snador's miserable, and he wants to see Tyrion miserable. To hurt Tyrion worse than Sandor himself has been hurt. That makes him feel better, at least on the surface. I think the exchanges between Sandor and Tyrion show that Sandor enjoys putting Tyrion down -- its not like he does it out of a mere sense of duty. To me, hurting other people for your own enjoyment is the definition of cruelty.

haaruk
User ID: 0645514 Dec 15th 9:56 AM
Point well made. I concur.

Chris Greenway
User ID: 9510053 Dec 18th 9:04 PM
Part of the reason that Tyrion can enjoy life despite his deformities is that unlike Sandor he was born with them. Sandor had to adjust to being disfigured after Gregor burned him. Just on that. Where on earth were Sandor's parents when Gregor did that?

Ser Benjen
User ID: 7726333 Dec 18th 10:49 PM
I think Sandor said that a number of guards had to be called in to pull Gregor off of Sandor at the time of the attack.

Ami
User ID: 8666863 Dec 19th 1:32 AM
Sandor has had 22/23 years to adjust to his deformity. He hasn't done it yet. Instead of taking that event and saying, "I'm going to be a better knight than any other", he decided to hate knights and become the monster that everyone said he was, or treated him like he was.
My point being that Sandor could have enjoyed life every bit as much as Tyrion, he chose not to.

His parents could've been running figures for their house for all we know, there are a number of reasons why they wouldn't have been there, don't you think? Parents can't be w/their children every second of the day.

Ami
User ID: 8666863 Dec 19th 1:37 AM
That came off a little pointedly, Chris, I certainly didn't mean it that way ;)

Padraig
User ID: 9593383 Dec 19th 5:35 AM
Ami, I agree with you that Sandor choose to be who he is today. We all choose who we become. But in a family that managed to produce a Gregor its not surprising that Sandor choose what he did. Things were stacked against him.

It shows what an extraordinary character Tyrion is that he choose to be kinder. He did have some help from Jaime though. I just hope Tyrion doen't let the current hard times destroy what he has become.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Dec 19th 1:44 PM
Ami, what was crucial for Sandor's decision to develop in the direction he had, was that no one even reprimanded Gregor for Sandor's burning. More, their father lied that the burning was accidential!
Why? Was he so fond of Gregor that he wouldn't give him his? In fact, such an attack could very well be a sufficient cause to desinherit Gregor, IMHO. I don't really understand the elder Clegane and think that if he really was murdered by Gregor, as seems likely, then he had it coming.

Regardless, Tyrion's situation always was far worse than Sandor's - he is not only ugly, but physically handicapped as well. Yet he managed to enjoy life despite having such cruel and abusive relatives as Tywin and Cersei. It may be that Jaime made the difference (do we know that no one was ready to care for Sandor, though?), but it is also possible, that Tyrion is just internally stronger of the two.
That realisation is what made Sandor hostile to Tyrion, IMHO. And when Tyrion showed physical bravery as well (despite his handicaps!), Sandor could no longer delude himself on this count. Tyrion succeeded in rising about his limitations, where Sandor failed when faced with his (i.e. fire).

Yup, I also hope that Tyrion manages to hang to his humanity. He is more like Tywin than either of them is willing to admit... which is additionally why they don't get along. That scene where "he reached for his father's voice and found it" was very creepy and I really hope that it wasn't a foreshadowing.

Padraig
User ID: 2372774 Dec 20th 1:50 PM
Almost agree with you totally Labor (I�m in a picky mood it seems). I think it is debatable whether Sandor or Tyrion had the worse childhood. Tyrion had more disadvantages but at least he was never physcially abused by a monster like Gregor. And while Tywin didn�t treat Tyrion well I do believe that he gave him all the training and education that a �normal� Lannister boy would expect to get.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your points on Sandor, the voice and who is stronger.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 20th 3:50 PM
I agree as well, labor. The point about Sandor resenting Tyrion because of Tyrion's strength in the face of adversity was very well put.

haaruk Dec 29th 9:54 PM
Sandor and Tyrion both have a need and desire for companionship. Sandor denied that fact until Sansa arrived. Tyrion is almost a puppy when in love. How will the parallel influences of Shae and Sansa affect the attitudes of the men towards each other? Does Sandor truly hate Tyrion or is he redirecting his self loathing? Will what happens to Shae and Sansa determine the course of their future actions?

Byron
User ID: 0240854 Dec 30th 1:54 AM
I'm not sure where some people have gotten the idea that Tyrion loves life. He has a sardonic sense of humor, but I don't think that's the same as loving life. He hates Tywin and Cersei. He desperately needs companionship (his "affliction", according to Cersei), but the only women he gets that from are prostitutes. He generally feels inferior to Jaime, and is jealous of his father's favoritism. I think Tyrion is actually pretty miserable. I agree he's internally strong and confident in what he does well, but to say he's living up life is a bit of a misstatement.

Sir Galahad
User ID: 0798784 Dec 30th 3:30 AM

Byron: Perhaps he has passion for life but lacks fulfillment or contentment.

His sly remarks are obvious defense mechanisms but somtimes, I get the impression he's really laughing inside.

Besides, he has Shae now . .. awwww. :D

Padraig
User ID: 9593383 Dec 30th 8:45 AM
For how long though will he have Shae, Sir Galahad? I agree though. He has a passion for life and tries to make the best of what he has got. People like Cersei and his father do continue to make him miserable but he doesn't let that stop him. And he doesn't want to be alone. So if no high-born lady is willing to put up with him then a whore will do. He hasn't given up on life by a long shot. He feels pain because he _lives_

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Ami User ID: 8666863	Dec 14th 11:46 AM Sandor hates Tyrion, not quite as much as his brother but there is definately so serious animosity thrown Tyrion's way. And it goes beyond the battle at Blackwater, we see a bit of this at the beginning of GoT at Winterfell when Sandor picks on him. But Tyrion seems totally indifferent toward Sandor, and in fact, recognizes that he needs him to lead a sortie duing the battle. We don't have a whole lot of clues and I'm hoping GRRM touches on it later, but I was thinking maybe he's envious that Tyrion truly enjoys life despite his disfigurement. I love Tyrion's quote to Jon "Never forget what you are for the world surely will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you." Sandor could've used that advice when he was young ;) (but then we wouldn't have such a great character to discuss.) Or could it be some conflict at the Rock that has yet to be revealed? Any thoughts?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Dec 14th 1:43 PM Perhaps Sandor is taking his duties of serving as Joffrey's shield beyond mere physical defense. After all, Joffrey is said to be fond of his dog, Tyrion and Joff have never gotten along, and Tyrion has a sharp tongue and a nimble wit, whereas Joff is sadly lacking in both departments. I even think it was hinted early in aGoT (the scene you refer to, Ami) that Sandor has served as Joff's verbal defense against Tyrion before as well. Tyrion thinking; 'They always played this mummer's farce' (or something to that effect).
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 14th 3:58 PM I think Sandor struck at Tyrion because Tyrion, as a disfigured dwarf, was an easy target. Simple cruelty, really. Plus, knowing Sandor's loathing of knighhood and nobility, it must have pleased him to be able to take free shots at a Lannister.
Snake User ID: 9286933	Dec 14th 6:39 PM But Sandor mentioned that he should have killed the Imp years ago. Why is that?
haaruk	Dec 15th 0:23 AM Ami is correct in her assessment. Tyrion loves life. Despite his physical deformities and the jibes of the populace he squeezes every morsel of passion from each moment and each day. Cercei is correct. Tyrion wants to be loved. The little man has a large capacity to give and receive the same. Sandor hates his life. Except when he's using his sword. The antithesis of how Tyrion approaches his situation. Sandor is jealous of how Tyrion has adjusted to his physical shortcomings. Without self pity and recrimination. That is why Sandor says "I want him burned". He wants to adjusts Tyrions circumstances to his level and say "I told you so, life and everyone in it is crap". He does not understand how Tyrion has adapted. The idea that he is just being cruel is completely superficial.
Street Prophet User ID: 1934244	Dec 15th 0:48 AM I don't know, that "I should have killed him years ago" seems to imply that a real conflict of interests occurred some years ago. Sandor thinks Tyrion did something (real or imagined) to inflict some grievance on him.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 15th 8:10 AM Haaruk, I don't disagree with the motives you provide for Sandor. But I'm a little mystified as to why this doesn't qualify as cruelty. Snador's miserable, and he wants to see Tyrion miserable. To hurt Tyrion worse than Sandor himself has been hurt. That makes him feel better, at least on the surface. I think the exchanges between Sandor and Tyrion show that Sandor enjoys putting Tyrion down -- its not like he does it out of a mere sense of duty. To me, hurting other people for your own enjoyment is the definition of cruelty.
haaruk User ID: 0645514	Dec 15th 9:56 AM Point well made. I concur.
Chris Greenway User ID: 9510053	Dec 18th 9:04 PM Part of the reason that Tyrion can enjoy life despite his deformities is that unlike Sandor he was born with them. Sandor had to adjust to being disfigured after Gregor burned him. Just on that. Where on earth were Sandor's parents when Gregor did that?
Ser Benjen User ID: 7726333	Dec 18th 10:49 PM I think Sandor said that a number of guards had to be called in to pull Gregor off of Sandor at the time of the attack.
Ami User ID: 8666863	Dec 19th 1:32 AM Sandor has had 22/23 years to adjust to his deformity. He hasn't done it yet. Instead of taking that event and saying, "I'm going to be a better knight than any other", he decided to hate knights and become the monster that everyone said he was, or treated him like he was. My point being that Sandor could have enjoyed life every bit as much as Tyrion, he chose not to. His parents could've been running figures for their house for all we know, there are a number of reasons why they wouldn't have been there, don't you think? Parents can't be w/their children every second of the day.
Ami User ID: 8666863	Dec 19th 1:37 AM That came off a little pointedly, Chris, I certainly didn't mean it that way ;)
Padraig User ID: 9593383	Dec 19th 5:35 AM Ami, I agree with you that Sandor choose to be who he is today. We all choose who we become. But in a family that managed to produce a Gregor its not surprising that Sandor choose what he did. Things were stacked against him. It shows what an extraordinary character Tyrion is that he choose to be kinder. He did have some help from Jaime though. I just hope Tyrion doen't let the current hard times destroy what he has become.
labor User ID: 8479113	Dec 19th 1:44 PM Ami, what was crucial for Sandor's decision to develop in the direction he had, was that no one even reprimanded Gregor for Sandor's burning. More, their father lied that the burning was accidential! Why? Was he so fond of Gregor that he wouldn't give him his? In fact, such an attack could very well be a sufficient cause to desinherit Gregor, IMHO. I don't really understand the elder Clegane and think that if he really was murdered by Gregor, as seems likely, then he had it coming. Regardless, Tyrion's situation always was far worse than Sandor's - he is not only ugly, but physically handicapped as well. Yet he managed to enjoy life despite having such cruel and abusive relatives as Tywin and Cersei. It may be that Jaime made the difference (do we know that no one was ready to care for Sandor, though?), but it is also possible, that Tyrion is just internally stronger of the two. That realisation is what made Sandor hostile to Tyrion, IMHO. And when Tyrion showed physical bravery as well (despite his handicaps!), Sandor could no longer delude himself on this count. Tyrion succeeded in rising about his limitations, where Sandor failed when faced with his (i.e. fire). Yup, I also hope that Tyrion manages to hang to his humanity. He is more like Tywin than either of them is willing to admit... which is additionally why they don't get along. That scene where "he reached for his father's voice and found it" was very creepy and I really hope that it wasn't a foreshadowing.
Padraig User ID: 2372774	Dec 20th 1:50 PM Almost agree with you totally Labor (I�m in a picky mood it seems). I think it is debatable whether Sandor or Tyrion had the worse childhood. Tyrion had more disadvantages but at least he was never physcially abused by a monster like Gregor. And while Tywin didn�t treat Tyrion well I do believe that he gave him all the training and education that a �normal� Lannister boy would expect to get. I think you hit the nail on the head with your points on Sandor, the voice and who is stronger.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 20th 3:50 PM I agree as well, labor. The point about Sandor resenting Tyrion because of Tyrion's strength in the face of adversity was very well put.
haaruk	Dec 29th 9:54 PM Sandor and Tyrion both have a need and desire for companionship. Sandor denied that fact until Sansa arrived. Tyrion is almost a puppy when in love. How will the parallel influences of Shae and Sansa affect the attitudes of the men towards each other? Does Sandor truly hate Tyrion or is he redirecting his self loathing? Will what happens to Shae and Sansa determine the course of their future actions?
Byron User ID: 0240854	Dec 30th 1:54 AM I'm not sure where some people have gotten the idea that Tyrion loves life. He has a sardonic sense of humor, but I don't think that's the same as loving life. He hates Tywin and Cersei. He desperately needs companionship (his "affliction", according to Cersei), but the only women he gets that from are prostitutes. He generally feels inferior to Jaime, and is jealous of his father's favoritism. I think Tyrion is actually pretty miserable. I agree he's internally strong and confident in what he does well, but to say he's living up life is a bit of a misstatement.
Sir Galahad User ID: 0798784	Dec 30th 3:30 AM Byron: Perhaps he has passion for life but lacks fulfillment or contentment. His sly remarks are obvious defense mechanisms but somtimes, I get the impression he's really laughing inside. Besides, he has Shae now . .. awwww. :D
Padraig User ID: 9593383	Dec 30th 8:45 AM For how long though will he have Shae, Sir Galahad? I agree though. He has a passion for life and tries to make the best of what he has got. People like Cersei and his father do continue to make him miserable but he doesn't let that stop him. And he doesn't want to be alone. So if no high-born lady is willing to put up with him then a whore will do. He hasn't given up on life by a long shot. He feels pain because he _lives_