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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Rulers

Transmetallix
User ID: 1105234 Dec 14th 1:03 PM
Hey, I'm new to this board. With five characters in aCoK clashing to be king, who do you think has the best claim to heir to the throne? Who do you think would make the best king, or in Daenerys' case, queen? I think Stannis has the right to be king, or queen if there's something we don't know about him. Joff's a bastard, Renly's dead, Robb's ancestors never ruled the kingdom, and the
Targaryen's were overthrown. Even though he has the right, I think Daenerys would make a better ruler. She should let Robb rule the north, because I don't think the Northmen would accept a ruler who wasn't a Stark.

Ami
User ID: 8666863 Dec 14th 1:59 PM
Salutations, Trans; it is ok if I call you Trans, isn't it?

Well, I think Dany has best claim despite the fact that they were overthrown, BUT, since she's barren her heir issue is a real problem. Under current political conditions, of course, Stannis has the right claim, however, he's a big jerk and doesn't deserve it! Haha!

You should read through SansaVI, just in the last few days Haaruk posted a really cool theory for those (as he put it) belong to the Aegon-is-still-alive Club. And if you've got the time you really should read through as many as the threads as you can, there are a plethora of great and wacky theories and ideas to be had.

;)

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Dec 14th 2:30 PM
Interesting question. It really depends on how you look at Robert's Rebellion and the patriarchal system, I guess.

There are those who think Aerys II Targaryen was a horrible king (which I'm sure he was) and Robert was the rightful ruler after Rhaegar died. To these folks, Robert ruled and died, and Joffrey was his heir. The fact that Joff and Tommen are not Robert's children is hardly accepted as common knowledge. Even if it were, according to what GRRM has implied, bastard sons (Edric Storm, Gendry) have no birthright to anything, and thus Stannis is the lawful heir. Of course not many people like Stannis.

There are those who think the Targeryen throne was Usurped by Robert and belonged to the Targaryen heir. Which was Viserys for a time. Now...Well, there has never been a female heir or ruler in Westeros, yet.

If I lived there and knew what I do now, I'd support Dany. Although she is young and unexperienced I think Dany would do well. She has that whole patriarchal thing going against her, but I think her Dragons could change some people's minds about all that.

Keep in mind that Rhaenyra Targaryen tried to claim the throne in the time of Aegon II(129-131). She claimed that she, being the oldest remaining child, was the rightful heir. That brought about the whole "Dance of the Dragons" thing, and I think both Rhaenyra and Aegon II died in that conflict. Only Jon stands in Dany's way as a possible heir. His heritage is very questionable, though, and his subsequent oaths stand in his way, for now.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Dec 14th 3:53 PM
Well, actually Westeros isn't so extremely patriarchal. According to an email from GRRM an eldest daughter would be regarded as a lawful heir after the sons by "most" in Westeros, not only on the Iron Isles (I.e. Theon's talk with Aeron Damphair).

It is worth noting that it were Rhaenyra's sons Aegon III and Viserys II (he is Aegon III's son in Appendix to AGOT, but Martin changed his mind since, because otherwise Prince Baelor Breakspear couldn't be as old as he was in the "Hedge Knight")who ruled after the dust of "Dance of the Dragons" settled.
Also the formal part of Robert Baratheon's claim to the throne again apparently rested on him being the descendant of an eldest Targaryen daughter.

And at the Great Council Prince Daeron's (the Drunken) daughter was passed over for the Iron Throne because she was _feeble-minded_, not only merely female.
Of course, Targaryens seldom had that kind of problems, what with their brother-to-sister marriages. OTOH in such situation a male got to sit the Iron Throne, eldest child or no... In fact, ironically, it seems that Targaryens mainly had problems when they allowed a daughter to marry out of House - i.e. Rhaenyra, Baratheons, etc...

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 14th 3:56 PM
Who has the "right" to be sovereign and who would be the "best sovereign". Very different questions, but both interesting.

I guess Stannis has the right over Danaerys. The Targaryen's got their throne through conquest and so did Robert. Robert was recognized as King by the other great houses, so that's as official as it gets. He's dead, so Stannis should be King.

He'd be a pretty lousy King, though. Limiting it to the heads of major houses, I'd say maybe Doran Martell. He seems to be the kind of guy who keeps his nose out of other folk's business. Robert Arryn - not. Edmure Tully - too immature. Tywin Lannister - too tyrannical and uncaring of the small folk. Mace Tyrell - seems a bit of a dandy. Robb Stark - like Danaerys, too inexperienced. So Martell it is.

Emperor Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Dec 14th 11:52 PM
ME!!!!! Nuff said.

ab

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Dec 15th 0:08 AM
Okay, sorry, I felt a little dilusional there. But you have to admit, Emperor Dirjj accomplished quite a bit in his short reign.

I think the the person who most deserves to be ruler of the 7 Kingdoms is Robb Stark. Age and experience don't matter a whole lot, the Kings Hand is Chief Councillor and Prime Minister. As long as both King and Hand aren't both young and inexperienced, then things would be fine. Also, is Robb were to choose a powerful and respected Southron as Hand, then the whole Kingdom would unite behind him with no qualms. Here are some of my reasons why Robb Stark is the legitimate ruler:

10. His ancestors ruled the entire North (half the area of Westeros) as King, then as Warden

09. He has First Man blood through his father and Andal blood through his mother

08. He's Eddards son, and no one has a bad thing to say about him.

07. He's a chip of the old block (Eddard). Eddards men would die for him because of their reverence and respect for him, that can't be said about any other Westron Lordling. Him being Eddard, so they would do like wise for Robb.

06. I'm not sure if it was official or not, but he was basically King Robert's God-son.

05. If he's not now, then he will be likened to the Young Dragon.

04. He's got two sisters and two brothers that he can marry off to form alliances. Tully's are already Kin.

03. He's still got Theon as his ace in the hole and that may still work out in his favor

02. He's older than Joff, so would be in a better position to wed Dany.

01. If you can't have Emperor Dirjj, who else could you want?

ab

Moreta
User ID: 9565813 Dec 15th 3:48 AM
Robb Stark's just too much alike his father and we all know how his father ended up. He's a good fighter and honorable. Just too honorable to be king. Seems like to me that whoever gets to be the ruler has to give up some honor.

Otherwise I'd love the idea of Robb marrying Dany because it'd be so perfect...

It's obvious that the North is the ice and the South is fire. One of my friends pointed out that fire and ice don't mix well so that might mean there will be two realms at the end. Bran rules the North and Dany rules the South.

Aerian
User ID: 0512724 Dec 15th 5:37 AM
What if Robb (eventually) marrys Dany, and ends up being king... however during ASoS Tyrion defects from the Lannisters, because Cersei has convinced Tywin that his head would look better on a pole than his body, taking the children (Myrcella, and Tommen) with him. During the five year interval Tyrion becomes a trusted councilor, Myrcella marries her Dornish princeling (still in Robbs camp), and has a son. In the fourth book, Dany arrives on the scene, and thinks it wise to marry Robb who has alliances with the Tullys, and the Martells. However since Dany is barren they adopt Mycella's child. The Stark/Dany/Tully/Martell (guided by Tyrion) alliance then grinds the Pride of Casterly Rock into metaphorical gravel. The Tyrells desert the Lannisters, Tommen marries Maegary, who fled Joff with the rest of her family, cementing High Garden behind Dany and Robb. Afterwords, Howland Reed aid Robb in driving the Ironmen and BOB (Asha bludgeoned him into subission, and he liked it) from Winterfell. The Redwyne's fleet and the dragons give Dragon Stone a thorough spring cleaning. The realm is now united behind Dany and Robb, who are guided by Tyrion's wise council. Sansa (with her faithful Hound) Arya, and Nymeria wander back to KL (after adventures I can't even imagine, except that the were very exciting), after a tearful reunion they all leave again to huntdown Joff, they then dispatch the little rotter very slowly. Every thing is in place for all hell to break loose at beginning of book five with an Other invasion.

Jeff
User ID: 0227464 Dec 15th 8:04 AM
Former Emperor Dirjj, it is no wonder that you are no longer in power. Theon is Robb's "ace in the hole"???? I suppose that might be true, but Robb probably didn't expect it to be the hole on which he sits. ;-)

Actually, I think Eddard would have made a great King. Had he been King, he would have had the power to protect his position. For starters, there would have been no Lannisters in Casterly Rock. Eddard was not the type of guy to win a Machiavellian power struggle. As a King, though, I think he would have been well-respected by all and been good for the people of Westeros.

Padraig
User ID: 9579203 Dec 15th 2:28 PM
I agree with what Jeff said. It was Robert's ineffective rule that left a power vacumn in Westeros which invited all kinds of corrupted people to take advantage. If Robert had been a strong ruler like Ned was in the North then Westeros would not have the problems that is has.

OTOH I don't actually think Stannis would be a bad king either. Unfortunately for him he has too many enemies who are unwilling to accept him on the throne. He would have been hard but fair in his own way. He would not have been as good as Ned because he would make too many enemies. Too inflexible.

I resist the idea that Dany will become queen. I do admit she has a lot of potential even though I was very worried by her behaviour in her last few chapters of aGoT. In aCoK she seems to have steadied herself.

Transmetallix User ID: 1105234	Dec 14th 1:03 PM Hey, I'm new to this board. With five characters in aCoK clashing to be king, who do you think has the best claim to heir to the throne? Who do you think would make the best king, or in Daenerys' case, queen? I think Stannis has the right to be king, or queen if there's something we don't know about him. Joff's a bastard, Renly's dead, Robb's ancestors never ruled the kingdom, and the Targaryen's were overthrown. Even though he has the right, I think Daenerys would make a better ruler. She should let Robb rule the north, because I don't think the Northmen would accept a ruler who wasn't a Stark.
Ami User ID: 8666863	Dec 14th 1:59 PM Salutations, Trans; it is ok if I call you Trans, isn't it? Well, I think Dany has best claim despite the fact that they were overthrown, BUT, since she's barren her heir issue is a real problem. Under current political conditions, of course, Stannis has the right claim, however, he's a big jerk and doesn't deserve it! Haha! You should read through SansaVI, just in the last few days Haaruk posted a really cool theory for those (as he put it) belong to the Aegon-is-still-alive Club. And if you've got the time you really should read through as many as the threads as you can, there are a plethora of great and wacky theories and ideas to be had. ;)
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Dec 14th 2:30 PM Interesting question. It really depends on how you look at Robert's Rebellion and the patriarchal system, I guess. There are those who think Aerys II Targaryen was a horrible king (which I'm sure he was) and Robert was the rightful ruler after Rhaegar died. To these folks, Robert ruled and died, and Joffrey was his heir. The fact that Joff and Tommen are not Robert's children is hardly accepted as common knowledge. Even if it were, according to what GRRM has implied, bastard sons (Edric Storm, Gendry) have no birthright to anything, and thus Stannis is the lawful heir. Of course not many people like Stannis. There are those who think the Targeryen throne was Usurped by Robert and belonged to the Targaryen heir. Which was Viserys for a time. Now...Well, there has never been a female heir or ruler in Westeros, yet. If I lived there and knew what I do now, I'd support Dany. Although she is young and unexperienced I think Dany would do well. She has that whole patriarchal thing going against her, but I think her Dragons could change some people's minds about all that. Keep in mind that Rhaenyra Targaryen tried to claim the throne in the time of Aegon II(129-131). She claimed that she, being the oldest remaining child, was the rightful heir. That brought about the whole "Dance of the Dragons" thing, and I think both Rhaenyra and Aegon II died in that conflict. Only Jon stands in Dany's way as a possible heir. His heritage is very questionable, though, and his subsequent oaths stand in his way, for now.
labor User ID: 8479113	Dec 14th 3:53 PM Well, actually Westeros isn't so extremely patriarchal. According to an email from GRRM an eldest daughter would be regarded as a lawful heir after the sons by "most" in Westeros, not only on the Iron Isles (I.e. Theon's talk with Aeron Damphair). It is worth noting that it were Rhaenyra's sons Aegon III and Viserys II (he is Aegon III's son in Appendix to AGOT, but Martin changed his mind since, because otherwise Prince Baelor Breakspear couldn't be as old as he was in the "Hedge Knight")who ruled after the dust of "Dance of the Dragons" settled. Also the formal part of Robert Baratheon's claim to the throne again apparently rested on him being the descendant of an eldest Targaryen daughter. And at the Great Council Prince Daeron's (the Drunken) daughter was passed over for the Iron Throne because she was _feeble-minded_, not only merely female. Of course, Targaryens seldom had that kind of problems, what with their brother-to-sister marriages. OTOH in such situation a male got to sit the Iron Throne, eldest child or no... In fact, ironically, it seems that Targaryens mainly had problems when they allowed a daughter to marry out of House - i.e. Rhaenyra, Baratheons, etc...
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 14th 3:56 PM Who has the "right" to be sovereign and who would be the "best sovereign". Very different questions, but both interesting. I guess Stannis has the right over Danaerys. The Targaryen's got their throne through conquest and so did Robert. Robert was recognized as King by the other great houses, so that's as official as it gets. He's dead, so Stannis should be King. He'd be a pretty lousy King, though. Limiting it to the heads of major houses, I'd say maybe Doran Martell. He seems to be the kind of guy who keeps his nose out of other folk's business. Robert Arryn - not. Edmure Tully - too immature. Tywin Lannister - too tyrannical and uncaring of the small folk. Mace Tyrell - seems a bit of a dandy. Robb Stark - like Danaerys, too inexperienced. So Martell it is.
Emperor Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Dec 14th 11:52 PM ME!!!!! Nuff said. ab
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Dec 15th 0:08 AM Okay, sorry, I felt a little dilusional there. But you have to admit, Emperor Dirjj accomplished quite a bit in his short reign. I think the the person who most deserves to be ruler of the 7 Kingdoms is Robb Stark. Age and experience don't matter a whole lot, the Kings Hand is Chief Councillor and Prime Minister. As long as both King and Hand aren't both young and inexperienced, then things would be fine. Also, is Robb were to choose a powerful and respected Southron as Hand, then the whole Kingdom would unite behind him with no qualms. Here are some of my reasons why Robb Stark is the legitimate ruler: 10. His ancestors ruled the entire North (half the area of Westeros) as King, then as Warden 09. He has First Man blood through his father and Andal blood through his mother 08. He's Eddards son, and no one has a bad thing to say about him. 07. He's a chip of the old block (Eddard). Eddards men would die for him because of their reverence and respect for him, that can't be said about any other Westron Lordling. Him being Eddard, so they would do like wise for Robb. 06. I'm not sure if it was official or not, but he was basically King Robert's God-son. 05. If he's not now, then he will be likened to the Young Dragon. 04. He's got two sisters and two brothers that he can marry off to form alliances. Tully's are already Kin. 03. He's still got Theon as his ace in the hole and that may still work out in his favor 02. He's older than Joff, so would be in a better position to wed Dany. 01. If you can't have Emperor Dirjj, who else could you want? ab
Moreta User ID: 9565813	Dec 15th 3:48 AM Robb Stark's just too much alike his father and we all know how his father ended up. He's a good fighter and honorable. Just too honorable to be king. Seems like to me that whoever gets to be the ruler has to give up some honor. Otherwise I'd love the idea of Robb marrying Dany because it'd be so perfect... It's obvious that the North is the ice and the South is fire. One of my friends pointed out that fire and ice don't mix well so that might mean there will be two realms at the end. Bran rules the North and Dany rules the South.
Aerian User ID: 0512724	Dec 15th 5:37 AM What if Robb (eventually) marrys Dany, and ends up being king... however during ASoS Tyrion defects from the Lannisters, because Cersei has convinced Tywin that his head would look better on a pole than his body, taking the children (Myrcella, and Tommen) with him. During the five year interval Tyrion becomes a trusted councilor, Myrcella marries her Dornish princeling (still in Robbs camp), and has a son. In the fourth book, Dany arrives on the scene, and thinks it wise to marry Robb who has alliances with the Tullys, and the Martells. However since Dany is barren they adopt Mycella's child. The Stark/Dany/Tully/Martell (guided by Tyrion) alliance then grinds the Pride of Casterly Rock into metaphorical gravel. The Tyrells desert the Lannisters, Tommen marries Maegary, who fled Joff with the rest of her family, cementing High Garden behind Dany and Robb. Afterwords, Howland Reed aid Robb in driving the Ironmen and BOB (Asha bludgeoned him into subission, and he liked it) from Winterfell. The Redwyne's fleet and the dragons give Dragon Stone a thorough spring cleaning. The realm is now united behind Dany and Robb, who are guided by Tyrion's wise council. Sansa (with her faithful Hound) Arya, and Nymeria wander back to KL (after adventures I can't even imagine, except that the were very exciting), after a tearful reunion they all leave again to huntdown Joff, they then dispatch the little rotter very slowly. Every thing is in place for all hell to break loose at beginning of book five with an Other invasion.
Jeff User ID: 0227464	Dec 15th 8:04 AM Former Emperor Dirjj, it is no wonder that you are no longer in power. Theon is Robb's "ace in the hole"???? I suppose that might be true, but Robb probably didn't expect it to be the hole on which he sits. ;-) Actually, I think Eddard would have made a great King. Had he been King, he would have had the power to protect his position. For starters, there would have been no Lannisters in Casterly Rock. Eddard was not the type of guy to win a Machiavellian power struggle. As a King, though, I think he would have been well-respected by all and been good for the people of Westeros.
Padraig User ID: 9579203	Dec 15th 2:28 PM I agree with what Jeff said. It was Robert's ineffective rule that left a power vacumn in Westeros which invited all kinds of corrupted people to take advantage. If Robert had been a strong ruler like Ned was in the North then Westeros would not have the problems that is has. OTOH I don't actually think Stannis would be a bad king either. Unfortunately for him he has too many enemies who are unwilling to accept him on the throne. He would have been hard but fair in his own way. He would not have been as good as Ned because he would make too many enemies. Too inflexible. I resist the idea that Dany will become queen. I do admit she has a lot of potential even though I was very worried by her behaviour in her last few chapters of aGoT. In aCoK she seems to have steadied herself.