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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Dwarf scarred for life

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Transmetallix
User ID: 2289444 Dec 16th 6:32 PM
After Ser Mandon (that bastard) tried to kill Tyrion and messed up his face, I thought Tyrion might die for a while. I almost cried. Anyways, Tyrion's new predicament leaves me with a few questions. Will Shae still love him? Did Shae ever love him, or was it just his money? What do you think will become of Pod, who saved Tyrion? Will he be bolder now because of his heroism, or will he be even more shy? I think he will be shyer, if that's a word.

JoryCassel
User ID: 9502963 Dec 26th 10:47 PM
oh everything's shrouded in frustrating mystery. Whatever happens to Pod though he has a place in my heart as one of the goofiest real and charming (in a warped sense) characters in fantasy LITERATURE. Oh, and Tyrion wasn't exactly a Loras Tyrell when it came to looks so if Shae really loved him i don't think her feelings would drastically change.

Emily
User ID: 2192024 Jan 11th 12:59 PM
It's a bit unfair to expect Shae to continue loving Tyrion (assuming that she did in the first place). You can be sure that if SHE was a hideous, noseless dwarf he wouldn't exactly be head over heels in love with her.

Padraig
User ID: 9913923 Jan 11th 3:36 PM
Continuing my recent trend in defending Tyrion:if he was in love with someone and she had an accident would he spurn her if she ended up ugly? He does seem to be incredibly loyal individual.

I will admit that I can't see him falling in love with an already hideous, noseless dwarf. Not that he would ever get a chance to get to know a hideous, noseless dwarf.

I�ve got to stop this;-)

labor
User ID: 9614573 Jan 11th 3:48 PM
OTOH, I could imagine falling in love with someone as ugly as Tyrion if he was also an equally interesting, brave and loyal man. With difficulty, but I could... Sure, a woman would have it even harder in his circumstances. OTOH, suprisingly, deformities aren't always 100% prohibitive even for us.

IMHO, Tyrion might not find a woman who will fall in love with him in the books, but he will find a wife who will be his true friend.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 11th 5:19 PM
Bravo Emily! Nice slam on Tyrion. During his adult life, he apparently has judged women -- for relationship purposes -- solely on the basis of how they look, so he doesn't really have the right to bitch if women do the same thing to him, huh?

On the other hand, though, there are some mitigating circumstances that make him not such a bad guy. For one thing, he apparently did have a real relationship with Tysha before Tywin twisted that all to hell. And maybe he feels that his dwarfism means that he'll never be able to marry a noble woman. He might even be right about that. His father won't let him marry a commoner or even develop a real relationship with one. So he's left with being permitted to have sex out of sight of his father and that's it. Because sex is all his father really lets him have, he picks his women based solely on sexuality. From his perspective, I'm not sure I can criticise that.

One thing about Tyrion/Tysha that has always bugged me, though. Tyrion really loved Tysha and had to watch her get ganged raped by 30 guys. Then he's ordered by Tywin to have sex with her himself. He tries not to but is "betrayed by his manhood" (or something to that effect).

Huh? First, I don't think my "manhood" would betray me if I was forced to participate in a gang rape of _any_ woman. I'd be too sickened. For a woman that I supposedly loved, it would be impossible. This is obviously a question directed solely at the guys, but did anybody else find this a little dubious?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 11th 5:27 PM
Mrm .... I have never much thought of it. I don't think one can give a ruling on it. So much depends on that key moment, on how Tyrion was affected and how he felt and just a lot of intangibles.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jan 11th 7:34 PM
Well, I am not a guy, but did Tyrion realise that it was a rape? IIRC the whole point of Tywin's little demonstration was to show Tyrion a whore "at work", not some innoncent victim. Would a gang rape of his lover destroy Tyrion's love for her? I would like to think better of him.
Tywin wanted to drive home that it was all for money, that Tyrion's love was completely misplaced and thus a double disgrace. IMHO, of course.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 11th 8:28 PM
That's the thing. You'd think he'd be unable to do it if he knew it was rape. But you'd think he'd be unable to do it if he just realized that the woman he married and loved devoutly was in fact a whore who cared nothing for him but was rather more interested in his purse.

But it's impossible to judge, at least for me. Too many intangibles and too many details I don't know (nor want to know.)

Emily
User ID: 2192024 Jan 12th 7:18 AM
I always assumed that Tysha acted as if she was willing to have sex for the money - rather than being a rape victim - or Tyrion would never have done it. I remember discussing this a while back, and someone suggested that Tywin had threatened Tysha with death if she didn't consent. But I don't see how any woman could look happy whilst being gang-raped, even under threat of death. Let alone a 14-year-old who shortly before had been a virgin. And I don't see how she'd be genuinely content to go along with it for the money, either. But Tyrion certainly doesn't regard himself as a rapist. We've heard the story twice now (and I'll never understand why Tyrion chose to reveal his vulnerabilities to Bronn of all people) and it's still no clearer.

Ran, I think that a boy who'd just had his life shattered by discovering his beloved was a whore would still be capable of having sex with her. It would be a means of revenge - here's your gold coin, you slut - and of saving face in front of the soldiers, and because he lacked the courage to defy his father, and because he still desired her and knew that this would be his last chance.

Jeff, I'm sure Tywin would be happy for Tyrion to marry a high-born woman - and I'm sure the woman's family (who cares how SHE feels?) would be glad of an alliance with the triumphant Lannisters. If Tywin wants a direct descendent of his to inherit, he'd better start breeding Tyrion soon. Unless he's planning on naming Tommen, but I doubt the inheritance laws could cope with passing over a legitimate son in favour of a daughter's younger son.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jan 12th 10:00 AM
Emily, I think that Tywin still harbours a hope that he might force Jaime to marry and breed. If he wanted to get heirs through Tyrion, he would have married him off long ago. Perhaps Tywin sincerely thinks that Tyrion is a bastard and no son of his.
Westeros laws, such as they are, do allow Tywin to desinherit Tyrion. And as GRRM admitted, most in Westeros would consider the eldest daughter (and her issue) the "rightful" heir after the sons... But perhaps after Tywin has a closer look at Joff, he'll see that Tommen can't inherit Casterly Rock, because he must be held in reserve for the throne.Also, it would seem that Tommen will now be getting Storm's End - what with Renly dead, and Stannis beaten and outlawed...

BTW, has anyone considered, how much easier Tyrion's life would have been if Jaime dutifully played his role of heir to Casterly Rock?

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 12th 2:06 PM
I'll echo labor's point about Tyrion. If Tywin wanted to marry Tyrion off to a noble, and was able to do so, then he would have. The fact that Tywin let's Tyrion run around as a randy bachelor says something.

Emily, I still have reservations about Tyrion's participation. The whore thing doesn't make sense. Even if she was a whore, she still married Tyrion and it doesn't make sense to assume she'd be willing to have sex with 30 guys in front of him after their marriage. It had to be forced, and Tyrion knew that.

I think his treatment of Shae is evidence of that. She's a whore, yet he has what he believes is a good relationship with her. But he is very concerned that Tywin doesn't do the same thing to her that he did to Shae. That concern wouldn't make sense if Tysha's actions were voluntary. Clearly, Tyrion was worried that Tywin would treat Shae the way he treated Tysha. And that necessarily implies coercion by Tywin. Otherwise, why worry? Shae would just say "no thank you". Tyrion knows she wouldn't have that option because Tysha didn't.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 12th 2:18 PM
Another point. Emily, I suppose some guys might become "able" due to anger at a woman -- some sort of power/punishment thing. But I think those guys are pretty sick to begin with and certainly not the majority. No matter how much I hated a woman, the thought of participating in that whole scene would have sickened me.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jan 12th 3:04 PM
Well, I don't know Jeff. If a professional whore was offered a choice between being tossed out without a copper or without any future access to Tyrion, perhaps even beaten, and "servicing" Tywin's men at apparently high rate of a silver pro man, what would she choose? And Tywin might have raised the stakes by offering her a few golden dragons as well - enough, according to the "Hedge Knight" to live comfortably for a few years, or maybe even go somewhere else and marry someone suitable...
What would Shae choose in similar situation?

IMHO, it was certainly possible for 13-year-old Tyrion to believe that what was going on with Tysha wasn't a rape, but her normal trade.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 13th 10:54 AM
Labor, once Tysha married Tywin, she was no longer a "professional whore" by definition.

In any case, your scenario does involve compulsion by Tywin. He forcibly dissolves the marriage, forces her not to see Tyrion any more, and threatens beatings. You're not arguing that this turn of events was something Tysha _wanted_, are you? I think its very clear that Tyrion blamed Tywin, not Tysha, for what happened.

But even if you're right, and Tyrion somehow overlooks all the closeness he had with Tysha and believes she is and was just a whore, wouldn't he be completely broken-hearted and feeling betrayed? After all, its very evidence that the pain is still with him after all these years. Could he really look upon Tysha as just another whore at that point? I can't see that, which is why I don't find the scene very credible.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jan 16th 10:09 AM
All interesting points. Overall, I'd say Tysha probably ISN'T a whore, because of Jaime's infamous 'Loved by one' sentense.

But it is a marginal thing. How much could Tyrion realise of the story? Could he really think clearly at that point? I imagine a young boy who went through a trauma wouldn't be the best of observers, especially if Tywin told Tysha he'd kill/beat her if she'd cry.

mmm... also, if she WERE a whore, wouldn't Jaime have wondered what happened to her? wouldn't he have a meeting arranged to pay her, etc?

Padraig
User ID: 8193053 Jan 17th 3:19 PM
This does seem by far the most unsavoury thing Tyrion has been involved in.

The only extenuating circumstances were his age and his fear towards his father. He had to watch how many men have sex with Tysha? I don't think he could really know what he was doing by the time it was his turn. I do think looking back he hates himself for what he did. Especially since now he understands it more. And he hates his father not only because he forced him but because of his own guilt.

Chokeslame
User ID: 0171704 Jan 22nd 1:50 PM
I am interested in the discussion of Pod. I think he, not Shae, will provide a critical point to Tyrion's character. First of all, he is the first person to be unswervingly LOYAL to Tyrion with no ulterior motive. (Shae: Money, Bronn:Money, knighthood). What offers did Tyrion make Pod:nothing. Yet this shy kid kills one of the Kingsguard to save him. Why? I think this loyalty will transform Tyrion, perhaps setting him against his own family. Much like Beauty and the Beast (which Martin wrote for) Tyrion's exterior ugliness only seeks to further contrast and showcase the good person he is within.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jan 23rd 5:37 AM
I like Pod. I admire Martin's minor characters. People like the Blackfish, Pod, Bronn, Brienne or Luwin(sp?), get relatively little 'stage time' but have a great impact.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 2nd 11:15 AM
In another thread Ran wrote: " If part of Tywin's dislike of Tyrion has to do with Lady Joanna dying giving him birth, it could have been a partly because Tywin's own mother died
a lingering death over some years after some severe damage/illness in giving him birth."

Well, IMHO, Tywin just loved his wife very strongly and his dislike of Tyrion mainly stems not from Tyrion's physical deficiency, but from the fact that Joanna died birthing him. Remember the passage where Catelyn ruminates how some life went out of her father after the death of his beloved wife Lady Minisa?
Well there is much more than a little life gone out of Tywin too - his never smiling or laughing, for instance looks like a very strange mannerism. It isn't like he needed such gimmicks to impress people, so it is likely a result of genuine emotional (ubelievable as it may seem) trauma.
Also like Lord Hoster, Tywin never remarried... even when Jaime becoming a White Sword made such step quite necessary.

I further think that despite appearances Tywin actually loves his children in proportion to their resemblance (outer and inner) to late Lady Joanna. I guess that Jaime is most like her in character for instance - IMHO a cold, calculating and introverted person like Tywin would be attracted to someone easy-going, rash and passionate...

Poor Tyrion of course has drawn the worst cards - his very existance constantly reminds Tywin of Joanna's death, he likely isn't looking much like his mother and in character he strongly resembles Tywin himself, although considerably humanized.
BTW, I also think that Tywin hopes that Tyrion is a bastard because it is too painful for him to feel himself partly responsible for Joanna's death.

So there. A thorough romanticization of one of the most repugnant characters in the series.

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Transmetallix User ID: 2289444	Dec 16th 6:32 PM After Ser Mandon (that bastard) tried to kill Tyrion and messed up his face, I thought Tyrion might die for a while. I almost cried. Anyways, Tyrion's new predicament leaves me with a few questions. Will Shae still love him? Did Shae ever love him, or was it just his money? What do you think will become of Pod, who saved Tyrion? Will he be bolder now because of his heroism, or will he be even more shy? I think he will be shyer, if that's a word.
JoryCassel User ID: 9502963	Dec 26th 10:47 PM oh everything's shrouded in frustrating mystery. Whatever happens to Pod though he has a place in my heart as one of the goofiest real and charming (in a warped sense) characters in fantasy LITERATURE. Oh, and Tyrion wasn't exactly a Loras Tyrell when it came to looks so if Shae really loved him i don't think her feelings would drastically change.
Emily User ID: 2192024	Jan 11th 12:59 PM It's a bit unfair to expect Shae to continue loving Tyrion (assuming that she did in the first place). You can be sure that if SHE was a hideous, noseless dwarf he wouldn't exactly be head over heels in love with her.
Padraig User ID: 9913923	Jan 11th 3:36 PM Continuing my recent trend in defending Tyrion:if he was in love with someone and she had an accident would he spurn her if she ended up ugly? He does seem to be incredibly loyal individual. I will admit that I can't see him falling in love with an already hideous, noseless dwarf. Not that he would ever get a chance to get to know a hideous, noseless dwarf. I�ve got to stop this;-)
labor User ID: 9614573	Jan 11th 3:48 PM OTOH, I could imagine falling in love with someone as ugly as Tyrion if he was also an equally interesting, brave and loyal man. With difficulty, but I could... Sure, a woman would have it even harder in his circumstances. OTOH, suprisingly, deformities aren't always 100% prohibitive even for us. IMHO, Tyrion might not find a woman who will fall in love with him in the books, but he will find a wife who will be his true friend.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 11th 5:19 PM Bravo Emily! Nice slam on Tyrion. During his adult life, he apparently has judged women -- for relationship purposes -- solely on the basis of how they look, so he doesn't really have the right to bitch if women do the same thing to him, huh? On the other hand, though, there are some mitigating circumstances that make him not such a bad guy. For one thing, he apparently did have a real relationship with Tysha before Tywin twisted that all to hell. And maybe he feels that his dwarfism means that he'll never be able to marry a noble woman. He might even be right about that. His father won't let him marry a commoner or even develop a real relationship with one. So he's left with being permitted to have sex out of sight of his father and that's it. Because sex is all his father really lets him have, he picks his women based solely on sexuality. From his perspective, I'm not sure I can criticise that. One thing about Tyrion/Tysha that has always bugged me, though. Tyrion really loved Tysha and had to watch her get ganged raped by 30 guys. Then he's ordered by Tywin to have sex with her himself. He tries not to but is "betrayed by his manhood" (or something to that effect). Huh? First, I don't think my "manhood" would betray me if I was forced to participate in a gang rape of _any_ woman. I'd be too sickened. For a woman that I supposedly loved, it would be impossible. This is obviously a question directed solely at the guys, but did anybody else find this a little dubious?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 11th 5:27 PM Mrm .... I have never much thought of it. I don't think one can give a ruling on it. So much depends on that key moment, on how Tyrion was affected and how he felt and just a lot of intangibles.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jan 11th 7:34 PM Well, I am not a guy, but did Tyrion realise that it was a rape? IIRC the whole point of Tywin's little demonstration was to show Tyrion a whore "at work", not some innoncent victim. Would a gang rape of his lover destroy Tyrion's love for her? I would like to think better of him. Tywin wanted to drive home that it was all for money, that Tyrion's love was completely misplaced and thus a double disgrace. IMHO, of course.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 11th 8:28 PM That's the thing. You'd think he'd be unable to do it if he knew it was rape. But you'd think he'd be unable to do it if he just realized that the woman he married and loved devoutly was in fact a whore who cared nothing for him but was rather more interested in his purse. But it's impossible to judge, at least for me. Too many intangibles and too many details I don't know (nor want to know.)
Emily User ID: 2192024	Jan 12th 7:18 AM I always assumed that Tysha acted as if she was willing to have sex for the money - rather than being a rape victim - or Tyrion would never have done it. I remember discussing this a while back, and someone suggested that Tywin had threatened Tysha with death if she didn't consent. But I don't see how any woman could look happy whilst being gang-raped, even under threat of death. Let alone a 14-year-old who shortly before had been a virgin. And I don't see how she'd be genuinely content to go along with it for the money, either. But Tyrion certainly doesn't regard himself as a rapist. We've heard the story twice now (and I'll never understand why Tyrion chose to reveal his vulnerabilities to Bronn of all people) and it's still no clearer. Ran, I think that a boy who'd just had his life shattered by discovering his beloved was a whore would still be capable of having sex with her. It would be a means of revenge - here's your gold coin, you slut - and of saving face in front of the soldiers, and because he lacked the courage to defy his father, and because he still desired her and knew that this would be his last chance. Jeff, I'm sure Tywin would be happy for Tyrion to marry a high-born woman - and I'm sure the woman's family (who cares how SHE feels?) would be glad of an alliance with the triumphant Lannisters. If Tywin wants a direct descendent of his to inherit, he'd better start breeding Tyrion soon. Unless he's planning on naming Tommen, but I doubt the inheritance laws could cope with passing over a legitimate son in favour of a daughter's younger son.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jan 12th 10:00 AM Emily, I think that Tywin still harbours a hope that he might force Jaime to marry and breed. If he wanted to get heirs through Tyrion, he would have married him off long ago. Perhaps Tywin sincerely thinks that Tyrion is a bastard and no son of his. Westeros laws, such as they are, do allow Tywin to desinherit Tyrion. And as GRRM admitted, most in Westeros would consider the eldest daughter (and her issue) the "rightful" heir after the sons... But perhaps after Tywin has a closer look at Joff, he'll see that Tommen can't inherit Casterly Rock, because he must be held in reserve for the throne.Also, it would seem that Tommen will now be getting Storm's End - what with Renly dead, and Stannis beaten and outlawed... BTW, has anyone considered, how much easier Tyrion's life would have been if Jaime dutifully played his role of heir to Casterly Rock?
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 12th 2:06 PM I'll echo labor's point about Tyrion. If Tywin wanted to marry Tyrion off to a noble, and was able to do so, then he would have. The fact that Tywin let's Tyrion run around as a randy bachelor says something. Emily, I still have reservations about Tyrion's participation. The whore thing doesn't make sense. Even if she was a whore, she still married Tyrion and it doesn't make sense to assume she'd be willing to have sex with 30 guys in front of him after their marriage. It had to be forced, and Tyrion knew that. I think his treatment of Shae is evidence of that. She's a whore, yet he has what he believes is a good relationship with her. But he is very concerned that Tywin doesn't do the same thing to her that he did to Shae. That concern wouldn't make sense if Tysha's actions were voluntary. Clearly, Tyrion was worried that Tywin would treat Shae the way he treated Tysha. And that necessarily implies coercion by Tywin. Otherwise, why worry? Shae would just say "no thank you". Tyrion knows she wouldn't have that option because Tysha didn't.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 12th 2:18 PM Another point. Emily, I suppose some guys might become "able" due to anger at a woman -- some sort of power/punishment thing. But I think those guys are pretty sick to begin with and certainly not the majority. No matter how much I hated a woman, the thought of participating in that whole scene would have sickened me.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jan 12th 3:04 PM Well, I don't know Jeff. If a professional whore was offered a choice between being tossed out without a copper or without any future access to Tyrion, perhaps even beaten, and "servicing" Tywin's men at apparently high rate of a silver pro man, what would she choose? And Tywin might have raised the stakes by offering her a few golden dragons as well - enough, according to the "Hedge Knight" to live comfortably for a few years, or maybe even go somewhere else and marry someone suitable... What would Shae choose in similar situation? IMHO, it was certainly possible for 13-year-old Tyrion to believe that what was going on with Tysha wasn't a rape, but her normal trade.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 13th 10:54 AM Labor, once Tysha married Tywin, she was no longer a "professional whore" by definition. In any case, your scenario does involve compulsion by Tywin. He forcibly dissolves the marriage, forces her not to see Tyrion any more, and threatens beatings. You're not arguing that this turn of events was something Tysha _wanted_, are you? I think its very clear that Tyrion blamed Tywin, not Tysha, for what happened. But even if you're right, and Tyrion somehow overlooks all the closeness he had with Tysha and believes she is and was just a whore, wouldn't he be completely broken-hearted and feeling betrayed? After all, its very evidence that the pain is still with him after all these years. Could he really look upon Tysha as just another whore at that point? I can't see that, which is why I don't find the scene very credible.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jan 16th 10:09 AM All interesting points. Overall, I'd say Tysha probably ISN'T a whore, because of Jaime's infamous 'Loved by one' sentense. But it is a marginal thing. How much could Tyrion realise of the story? Could he really think clearly at that point? I imagine a young boy who went through a trauma wouldn't be the best of observers, especially if Tywin told Tysha he'd kill/beat her if she'd cry. mmm... also, if she WERE a whore, wouldn't Jaime have wondered what happened to her? wouldn't he have a meeting arranged to pay her, etc?
Padraig User ID: 8193053	Jan 17th 3:19 PM This does seem by far the most unsavoury thing Tyrion has been involved in. The only extenuating circumstances were his age and his fear towards his father. He had to watch how many men have sex with Tysha? I don't think he could really know what he was doing by the time it was his turn. I do think looking back he hates himself for what he did. Especially since now he understands it more. And he hates his father not only because he forced him but because of his own guilt.
Chokeslame User ID: 0171704	Jan 22nd 1:50 PM I am interested in the discussion of Pod. I think he, not Shae, will provide a critical point to Tyrion's character. First of all, he is the first person to be unswervingly LOYAL to Tyrion with no ulterior motive. (Shae: Money, Bronn:Money, knighthood). What offers did Tyrion make Pod:nothing. Yet this shy kid kills one of the Kingsguard to save him. Why? I think this loyalty will transform Tyrion, perhaps setting him against his own family. Much like Beauty and the Beast (which Martin wrote for) Tyrion's exterior ugliness only seeks to further contrast and showcase the good person he is within.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jan 23rd 5:37 AM I like Pod. I admire Martin's minor characters. People like the Blackfish, Pod, Bronn, Brienne or Luwin(sp?), get relatively little 'stage time' but have a great impact.
labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 2nd 11:15 AM In another thread Ran wrote: " If part of Tywin's dislike of Tyrion has to do with Lady Joanna dying giving him birth, it could have been a partly because Tywin's own mother died a lingering death over some years after some severe damage/illness in giving him birth." Well, IMHO, Tywin just loved his wife very strongly and his dislike of Tyrion mainly stems not from Tyrion's physical deficiency, but from the fact that Joanna died birthing him. Remember the passage where Catelyn ruminates how some life went out of her father after the death of his beloved wife Lady Minisa? Well there is much more than a little life gone out of Tywin too - his never smiling or laughing, for instance looks like a very strange mannerism. It isn't like he needed such gimmicks to impress people, so it is likely a result of genuine emotional (ubelievable as it may seem) trauma. Also like Lord Hoster, Tywin never remarried... even when Jaime becoming a White Sword made such step quite necessary. I further think that despite appearances Tywin actually loves his children in proportion to their resemblance (outer and inner) to late Lady Joanna. I guess that Jaime is most like her in character for instance - IMHO a cold, calculating and introverted person like Tywin would be attracted to someone easy-going, rash and passionate... Poor Tyrion of course has drawn the worst cards - his very existance constantly reminds Tywin of Joanna's death, he likely isn't looking much like his mother and in character he strongly resembles Tywin himself, although considerably humanized. BTW, I also think that Tywin hopes that Tyrion is a bastard because it is too painful for him to feel himself partly responsible for Joanna's death. So there. A thorough romanticization of one of the most repugnant characters in the series.