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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Bolton- hero of North or traitor to be?

Next 20 Messages

Flayed Man
User ID: 1467524 Jan 3rd 8:09 PM
Hey all, haven't been here for long time. well we did not have discussion on bolton for while well since everybody talks Roose Bolton here and there, why don't we talk about him here?

Well Roose Bolton is my infamous hero, and Right now he is hero who took Harrenhal but there is some hint that he might become a traitor. So Will he be just weirdo (he sure acts weird amongst all Lords in Westeros) who will become future hero of North, or Notorious traitor?

Mike
User ID: 0687174 Jan 3rd 8:19 PM
I am opting for traitor. He is currently tied to Lord Frey, who has already been seen to possibly be in the process of betraying the Starks. And his only son burnt Winterfell to the ground.

It would be nice if he stayed true, but it just doesn't seem like it is going to happen.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 4th 11:15 AM
A traitorous dog. At the end of ACOK, he sends lords loyal to Robb to Duskendale and someplace else. A quick look at a map tells us that it would be extremely easy for the Lannisters to cut them off, and why risk that when you're pulling back anyway. Also, I can't believe that the men of the Dreadfort would follow the Bastard to raid and burn Winterfell unless they had reason to believe that Roose would have approved.

Flayed Man
User ID: 1467524 Jan 4th 11:52 AM
Yeah something does smell fishy there..but fact is that Bolton does not love his bastard. he would be nuts to name him a heir. but I don't think Bolton will be traitor. some of his men followed BOB because BOB is a another Jamie Lannister (but crazier and more weird version of him) and his men are afraid of him so they might have done what BOB told them to do without any choice.

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Jan 4th 12:46 PM
Traitor. Along with the other reasons stated above, there is Arya's mistrust of the man. She didn't trust him even though she was surrounded by Robb's bannermen. It could be that Arya is just becoming jaded and cynical but I think that it is a hint of what is to come.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 4th 2:11 PM
Flayed, I can't believe that the Bastard could have intimidated all the men left at the Dreadfort into attacking Winterfell, the seat of the Lord of the North. Let's assume that those men did join BoB on their own. What do they thing would happen to them when Robb and Roose return with the armies of the North? If it was just BoB acting on his own with a band of ruffians, that's one thing. But we was clearly leading the men of the Dreadfort, who I don't think would have acted unless 1) Roose directly authorized the act or 2) Roose told his men to follow the Bastard's orders. The latter option is inconsistent with Roose's own professed mistrust of the Bastard, and therefore suggests that Roose lied about his relationship with the Bastard and does approve of his conduct.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 4th 2:31 PM
A telling fact: Roose gave the Bastard of Bolton a ring which _appears_ to have been a signet ring which more or less proclaimed the Bastard'ss authority in the Dreadfort.

If that's correct, the clearly Roose trusted his bastard, or he would never have given him such a symbol of his right to rule in the Dreadfort while he was away.

I'm sure Roose approves. I'm also sure that the Bastard did the attack on Winterfell on his own, since his father really wouldn't have time to react, but no doubt Roose secretly approves. I'm also sure it was he who authorized Ramsay to attack the Hornwoods.

<Enters a note to remember to ask Martin about the ring>

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Jan 4th 3:30 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure how many of Roose's men were still at the Dreadfort, but I remember reading that The BoB was gathering Sellswords and the like. Perhaps the Sellswords outnumbered Roose's men, and either overwhelmed them. Thus Ramsay could have taken the Signet ring that his father left to some one else who was supposed to act as Castellan. It's something that may be a possibility. Think about it, Ramsay could have walked into the Dreadfort and taken it with a small force of men just as easily as Theon could have walked into Winterfell. Theon didn't and came under banners of war, but he could have walked right up to Winterfell and taken it, just like the "Dreadfort" men walked up behind Ser Rodrik. Neither fortress suspected, nor were prepared for the treachery.

ab

Flayed Man
User ID: 1467524 Jan 4th 7:27 PM
exactly dirji. Mr martin told me that BOB has his own man and SOME of his father's men. most likely his own men intimidated ROOSE's men.

But Roose rode with NED at the war of Robert, and very few who survived and those who survived, NED consider them as "friends" and I don't remember NED ever bad mouth bolton like saying "hmm that guy cannot be trusted ect". Ned might have admitted that Roose acts weird but I don't think Roose will act so weird that he is going to betray young dire wolf

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 4th 7:39 PM
Ned thought of how Roose Bolton argued that Barristan Selmy's throat should have been slit after the battle, while he was lying wounded. I do believe that would have turned Ned's stomach, the idea of killing a wounded and valiant foe who was simply keeping his oaths. Good thing that Robert agreed with him.

I have a feeling that Bolton was somewhat distasteful to Ned -- as everyone sane/good would find him, at the least, distasteful -- but Ned never had the occassion in the books to think about Bolton. It just never came up. He had no reason to think Bolton was a traitor, at the least, at that stage in things.

It's only Bolton's recent behavior, and the fact that Rodrik Cassel more than admitted that Roose would no doubt fight for the Hornwood lands through his bastard's relatively false and illegitimate claim, that shows that people were probably well aware that he was creepy and more interested in him and his than, necessarily, the peace and justice of the North.

BTW, as an aside, when did Martin say this? Was it a mail? You wouldn't still have it, would you?

Relic
User ID: 9328513 Jan 4th 7:44 PM
Most people agree that Bolton is looking more and more the traitor. Now assuming that we are right, what are his motivations? Has he been planning this for awhile, or just making the MOST of his positioning? And most importantly,how in the world would Robb recover from this?

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Jan 4th 9:43 PM
Traitor, defintely. A guy who wants to kill a honorable man like Barristan Selmy wouldn't hesitate to betray a honorable king like Robb.

I think Roose Bolton He probably had the motivation a long time ago but waited until the time was right. He strikes me as a cautious man who would not act until it was in his favor. So he saw an opening and he couldn't resist not taking it.

To me, Robb won't recover from it. Bolton's more likely climbing in bed with the Freys...and there's that vision of a wolf king dead in ACOK. The Starks will rise again like the phoenix, but first they have to suffer a serious downfall like Robb's death.

Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Jan 5th 0:13 AM
Regarding Bolton and Selmy. I don't remember the passage, but emotions run high in the heat of battle, or when under duress. Look at lord Karstark, he'd kill anything in Lannister colors right now, even if it were a page.

It doesn't seem in Roose's best interest to betray Robb. I don't think any Southron army would bother to march North to help him.

As for the Freys, they're up to their same old games. Playing both ends against the middle. They's choose the side that is most favorable to them at any given time. I think their house is destined to fall.

ab

SIR GALAHAD
User ID: 0276214 Jan 5th 1:52 AM
I don't have an opinion on Roose Bolton either way right now.

He's a great character and a bit eerie with all
those leeches over him.

Hope he stays around for a while and doesn't
get killed off too soon by the Hand of GRRM

Ami
User ID: 2742064 Jan 5th 11:06 AM
Hey, FM, nice to hear from you again!

I have to agree - traitor - for reason listed above, and my main reason, like Kevin, is because Arya didn't even trust him.

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Jan 5th 12:05 PM
Another bit of foreshadowing was when Cat told Robb that he shouldn't blindly trust his bannermen. She suggested that one or more would turn given the opportunity.

If you couple all the foreshadowing with the evidence we have, Bolton will bolt.

Anon
User ID: 2205324 Jan 5th 1:13 PM
Ramsay has definitely been in favour with Roose prior to the war (witness clothes, armour and ring - more than is necessary to uphold the honour of the House in public).

Whether Roose planned to take advantage of the strife, or is merely reacting to events is unclear. On the one hand he left 600 well armed men behind (more than Winterfell ever would?), on the other he cannot have forseen events, and, as Tywin Lannister attests, he is a "cautious man". Whatever his intentions, it is clear that conflict is helpful for his purposes - "one king can be terrible, but four?"

Whether Walder Frey is in on it is unclear. He's elderly, Ryman is Robb's man, Emmon is Tywin's, and the next of Walder's sons is Aenys (Does anyone know which sister Roose wed?). Could we see a Bolton-backed usurpation by Aenys?

Even if Bolton takes Moat Cailin, I can't see how he can consolidate his position without substatial Lannister aid. The native lords must probably be made to kneel through force. Manderly, the most powerful is an implacable foe, and has already received overtures from Tywin. Add Ironmen, and accomplishing this with only 12k looks near impossible. I hope he does though, I like him.

Anon
User ID: 2205324 Jan 5th 1:17 PM
P.S. Is aSoS fininshed yet? I hope there isn't as much fuss about deadlines as there was with a CoK.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 5th 1:22 PM
Well, Martin has said that he's close to the deadline and is working on wrapping it up in time. The way he says it suggests he's not really more behind than he ought to be -- more like the usual sort of 'last-minute overdrive' most people get when approaching a deadline.

If it's done, I wouldn't know it. I don't quite think he's sent the MS in -- for some reason I imagine he'll mail many of the folk who maintain sites and the like with the information -- but he may be doing his own proofing and making minor corrections and revisions to the otherwise completed MS.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jan 5th 2:22 PM
Anon, the next heir after Ser Ryman is his son Edwyn, not Aenys. As to whether Ryman is Robb's man - that's a question, isn't it? IIRC, he has been riding with Robb for a while, but will he remain with him through serious adversity and likely defeat? BTW, I think that Ser Ryman, Black Walder, etc. are already en route to the Twins with Ser Stevron's body.
The Freys try to be always on the winning side and/or on the side which offers them most. It is now most unlikely that Robb will hold on in the Riverlands. We know how the rank-and-file Freys see Robb's chances after Lannister-Tyrell alliance (i.e. Ser Aenys's and Co. little talk with Bolton). If Tywin by now corrected his mistake from AGOT and approached Lord Walder, I think the Freys might have turned.
BTW, Bolton may now offer the Freys lands (there will be many lands without heirs or inherited by marriageable women in the North) and offices in the North, while Lannisters can offer them marriage alliances, offices and squireships/fostering at the court. What can Robb offer them?

As to how Bolton might kick out the Ironborn and subdue the North - Moat Cailin is only formidable from the south. If one finds the way to circumvent it however - for instance by sailing directly to White Harbor, the Ironborn might be in for some lively entertainment. And yes, Manderly is an implacable foe for the moment, but will he remain so, if Bolton offers him Hornwood lands, while the Lannisters hold his son hostage?

Yes, Bolton can't make it without Lannister support, IMHO. However their support will likely consist of defeating and killing Robb and taking as many of his lords/their heirs captive as they can. This way there will be very few lords to oppose Bolton in the North - and those mostly old men, women and children and those with their sons/fathers/brothers/husbands hostages to the Lannisters to guarantee their good behaviour. Freys will, IMHO follow Bolton into the North and fight for him there.

Next 20 Messages

Flayed Man User ID: 1467524	Jan 3rd 8:09 PM Hey all, haven't been here for long time. well we did not have discussion on bolton for while well since everybody talks Roose Bolton here and there, why don't we talk about him here? Well Roose Bolton is my infamous hero, and Right now he is hero who took Harrenhal but there is some hint that he might become a traitor. So Will he be just weirdo (he sure acts weird amongst all Lords in Westeros) who will become future hero of North, or Notorious traitor?
Mike User ID: 0687174	Jan 3rd 8:19 PM I am opting for traitor. He is currently tied to Lord Frey, who has already been seen to possibly be in the process of betraying the Starks. And his only son burnt Winterfell to the ground. It would be nice if he stayed true, but it just doesn't seem like it is going to happen.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 4th 11:15 AM A traitorous dog. At the end of ACOK, he sends lords loyal to Robb to Duskendale and someplace else. A quick look at a map tells us that it would be extremely easy for the Lannisters to cut them off, and why risk that when you're pulling back anyway. Also, I can't believe that the men of the Dreadfort would follow the Bastard to raid and burn Winterfell unless they had reason to believe that Roose would have approved.
Flayed Man User ID: 1467524	Jan 4th 11:52 AM Yeah something does smell fishy there..but fact is that Bolton does not love his bastard. he would be nuts to name him a heir. but I don't think Bolton will be traitor. some of his men followed BOB because BOB is a another Jamie Lannister (but crazier and more weird version of him) and his men are afraid of him so they might have done what BOB told them to do without any choice.
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Jan 4th 12:46 PM Traitor. Along with the other reasons stated above, there is Arya's mistrust of the man. She didn't trust him even though she was surrounded by Robb's bannermen. It could be that Arya is just becoming jaded and cynical but I think that it is a hint of what is to come.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 4th 2:11 PM Flayed, I can't believe that the Bastard could have intimidated all the men left at the Dreadfort into attacking Winterfell, the seat of the Lord of the North. Let's assume that those men did join BoB on their own. What do they thing would happen to them when Robb and Roose return with the armies of the North? If it was just BoB acting on his own with a band of ruffians, that's one thing. But we was clearly leading the men of the Dreadfort, who I don't think would have acted unless 1) Roose directly authorized the act or 2) Roose told his men to follow the Bastard's orders. The latter option is inconsistent with Roose's own professed mistrust of the Bastard, and therefore suggests that Roose lied about his relationship with the Bastard and does approve of his conduct.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 4th 2:31 PM A telling fact: Roose gave the Bastard of Bolton a ring which _appears_ to have been a signet ring which more or less proclaimed the Bastard'ss authority in the Dreadfort. If that's correct, the clearly Roose trusted his bastard, or he would never have given him such a symbol of his right to rule in the Dreadfort while he was away. I'm sure Roose approves. I'm also sure that the Bastard did the attack on Winterfell on his own, since his father really wouldn't have time to react, but no doubt Roose secretly approves. I'm also sure it was he who authorized Ramsay to attack the Hornwoods. <Enters a note to remember to ask Martin about the ring>
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Jan 4th 3:30 PM Hmm, I'm not sure how many of Roose's men were still at the Dreadfort, but I remember reading that The BoB was gathering Sellswords and the like. Perhaps the Sellswords outnumbered Roose's men, and either overwhelmed them. Thus Ramsay could have taken the Signet ring that his father left to some one else who was supposed to act as Castellan. It's something that may be a possibility. Think about it, Ramsay could have walked into the Dreadfort and taken it with a small force of men just as easily as Theon could have walked into Winterfell. Theon didn't and came under banners of war, but he could have walked right up to Winterfell and taken it, just like the "Dreadfort" men walked up behind Ser Rodrik. Neither fortress suspected, nor were prepared for the treachery. ab
Flayed Man User ID: 1467524	Jan 4th 7:27 PM exactly dirji. Mr martin told me that BOB has his own man and SOME of his father's men. most likely his own men intimidated ROOSE's men. But Roose rode with NED at the war of Robert, and very few who survived and those who survived, NED consider them as "friends" and I don't remember NED ever bad mouth bolton like saying "hmm that guy cannot be trusted ect". Ned might have admitted that Roose acts weird but I don't think Roose will act so weird that he is going to betray young dire wolf
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 4th 7:39 PM Ned thought of how Roose Bolton argued that Barristan Selmy's throat should have been slit after the battle, while he was lying wounded. I do believe that would have turned Ned's stomach, the idea of killing a wounded and valiant foe who was simply keeping his oaths. Good thing that Robert agreed with him. I have a feeling that Bolton was somewhat distasteful to Ned -- as everyone sane/good would find him, at the least, distasteful -- but Ned never had the occassion in the books to think about Bolton. It just never came up. He had no reason to think Bolton was a traitor, at the least, at that stage in things. It's only Bolton's recent behavior, and the fact that Rodrik Cassel more than admitted that Roose would no doubt fight for the Hornwood lands through his bastard's relatively false and illegitimate claim, that shows that people were probably well aware that he was creepy and more interested in him and his than, necessarily, the peace and justice of the North. BTW, as an aside, when did Martin say this? Was it a mail? You wouldn't still have it, would you?
Relic User ID: 9328513	Jan 4th 7:44 PM Most people agree that Bolton is looking more and more the traitor. Now assuming that we are right, what are his motivations? Has he been planning this for awhile, or just making the MOST of his positioning? And most importantly,how in the world would Robb recover from this?
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Jan 4th 9:43 PM Traitor, defintely. A guy who wants to kill a honorable man like Barristan Selmy wouldn't hesitate to betray a honorable king like Robb. I think Roose Bolton He probably had the motivation a long time ago but waited until the time was right. He strikes me as a cautious man who would not act until it was in his favor. So he saw an opening and he couldn't resist not taking it. To me, Robb won't recover from it. Bolton's more likely climbing in bed with the Freys...and there's that vision of a wolf king dead in ACOK. The Starks will rise again like the phoenix, but first they have to suffer a serious downfall like Robb's death.
Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Jan 5th 0:13 AM Regarding Bolton and Selmy. I don't remember the passage, but emotions run high in the heat of battle, or when under duress. Look at lord Karstark, he'd kill anything in Lannister colors right now, even if it were a page. It doesn't seem in Roose's best interest to betray Robb. I don't think any Southron army would bother to march North to help him. As for the Freys, they're up to their same old games. Playing both ends against the middle. They's choose the side that is most favorable to them at any given time. I think their house is destined to fall. ab
SIR GALAHAD User ID: 0276214	Jan 5th 1:52 AM I don't have an opinion on Roose Bolton either way right now. He's a great character and a bit eerie with all those leeches over him. Hope he stays around for a while and doesn't get killed off too soon by the Hand of GRRM
Ami User ID: 2742064	Jan 5th 11:06 AM Hey, FM, nice to hear from you again! I have to agree - traitor - for reason listed above, and my main reason, like Kevin, is because Arya didn't even trust him.
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Jan 5th 12:05 PM Another bit of foreshadowing was when Cat told Robb that he shouldn't blindly trust his bannermen. She suggested that one or more would turn given the opportunity. If you couple all the foreshadowing with the evidence we have, Bolton will bolt.
Anon User ID: 2205324	Jan 5th 1:13 PM Ramsay has definitely been in favour with Roose prior to the war (witness clothes, armour and ring - more than is necessary to uphold the honour of the House in public). Whether Roose planned to take advantage of the strife, or is merely reacting to events is unclear. On the one hand he left 600 well armed men behind (more than Winterfell ever would?), on the other he cannot have forseen events, and, as Tywin Lannister attests, he is a "cautious man". Whatever his intentions, it is clear that conflict is helpful for his purposes - "one king can be terrible, but four?" Whether Walder Frey is in on it is unclear. He's elderly, Ryman is Robb's man, Emmon is Tywin's, and the next of Walder's sons is Aenys (Does anyone know which sister Roose wed?). Could we see a Bolton-backed usurpation by Aenys? Even if Bolton takes Moat Cailin, I can't see how he can consolidate his position without substatial Lannister aid. The native lords must probably be made to kneel through force. Manderly, the most powerful is an implacable foe, and has already received overtures from Tywin. Add Ironmen, and accomplishing this with only 12k looks near impossible. I hope he does though, I like him.
Anon User ID: 2205324	Jan 5th 1:17 PM P.S. Is aSoS fininshed yet? I hope there isn't as much fuss about deadlines as there was with a CoK.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 5th 1:22 PM Well, Martin has said that he's close to the deadline and is working on wrapping it up in time. The way he says it suggests he's not really more behind than he ought to be -- more like the usual sort of 'last-minute overdrive' most people get when approaching a deadline. If it's done, I wouldn't know it. I don't quite think he's sent the MS in -- for some reason I imagine he'll mail many of the folk who maintain sites and the like with the information -- but he may be doing his own proofing and making minor corrections and revisions to the otherwise completed MS.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jan 5th 2:22 PM Anon, the next heir after Ser Ryman is his son Edwyn, not Aenys. As to whether Ryman is Robb's man - that's a question, isn't it? IIRC, he has been riding with Robb for a while, but will he remain with him through serious adversity and likely defeat? BTW, I think that Ser Ryman, Black Walder, etc. are already en route to the Twins with Ser Stevron's body. The Freys try to be always on the winning side and/or on the side which offers them most. It is now most unlikely that Robb will hold on in the Riverlands. We know how the rank-and-file Freys see Robb's chances after Lannister-Tyrell alliance (i.e. Ser Aenys's and Co. little talk with Bolton). If Tywin by now corrected his mistake from AGOT and approached Lord Walder, I think the Freys might have turned. BTW, Bolton may now offer the Freys lands (there will be many lands without heirs or inherited by marriageable women in the North) and offices in the North, while Lannisters can offer them marriage alliances, offices and squireships/fostering at the court. What can Robb offer them? As to how Bolton might kick out the Ironborn and subdue the North - Moat Cailin is only formidable from the south. If one finds the way to circumvent it however - for instance by sailing directly to White Harbor, the Ironborn might be in for some lively entertainment. And yes, Manderly is an implacable foe for the moment, but will he remain so, if Bolton offers him Hornwood lands, while the Lannisters hold his son hostage? Yes, Bolton can't make it without Lannister support, IMHO. However their support will likely consist of defeating and killing Robb and taking as many of his lords/their heirs captive as they can. This way there will be very few lords to oppose Bolton in the North - and those mostly old men, women and children and those with their sons/fathers/brothers/husbands hostages to the Lannisters to guarantee their good behaviour. Freys will, IMHO follow Bolton into the North and fight for him there.