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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Future Heroes

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Street Prophet
User ID: 0178794 		Jan 4th 3:27 PM
It's interesting reading A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings and seeing who'll be heroes, the new bad asses in A Dance of Dragons. That's the one that takes place after the five year period, right? Anyway, I think Podrick Payne will definatley be a great warrior. Think about it, you know G.R.R.M. has, Ser Payne! And even if it was from behind that boy still killed a Kingsguard, no easy task.
Next there is Arya. Well, needless to say she is already a bad ass, but if she survives she'll probably be quite a viscous wee gal. After all, she killed someone at an even younger age than the Hound.
Josmyn Peckledon will probably be another one who's name we'll see in the future. He's the young squire in A Clash of Kings who slices and dices roughly five knights even though he's only 13. He was one of the few people who were recoginized for their fighting prowess after the Siege of King's Landing. I really hope they'll be a fight between the future Ser Payne and Ser Peckledon.
Rickard is probably going to be a kind of Princess Mononoke. He's four now, right? So that means he'll be five at the end of A Storm of Swords. So by the time A Dance of Dragons rolls around he'll be ten. I can see him as a long haired savage boy dressed in skins, riding on his giant direwolf leading hosts of wildlings and wolves through the countryside.
Does anyone think we might lose Dany as a POV? I don't think she'll die, she just might become too stationary as a queen in Dorne or something so Martin might want to see her through somebody else's eyes.
Well, I can't think of any other Future Heroes right now. Does anybody else have any ideas?
Ami
User ID: 2742064 		Jan 5th 11:12 AM
Wow, I don't even remember Peckledon! I'm going to have to re-read soon.

What a cool idea for Rickon! I figured he was going to be a pain in the Stark's butts later on rather than any kind of help. You might be on to something, SP.

Tyrion, of course! I think he'll be hero by the end of the series, or die in some hugely honorable battle.
Padraig
User ID: 8290473 		Jan 5th 2:47 PM
Street Prophet, well Dany is the only ruler that we have had the benefit of a personal POV. It will be interesting to see if GRRM maintains this when she gets some power so you may be onto something. I do believe that some current POV will meet her. Maybe Arya or my personal favourite Stannis through Davos.

Your Rickon theory is as good as anything else I have read. 10 may still be a bit young to lead but you never now.

Pod as a kick-ass fighter. He would certainly be useful for Tyrion since he is very loyal. I never thought of it before. I like it.
Street Prophet
User ID: 0178794 		Jan 6th 11:53 AM
Of course it could be that Podrick Payne will have a far more important mission assigned to him by Tyrion. "Protect my Shae and my child that grows within her from all my enemies", Tyrion says on his death bed. So by the time the fourth book rolls around we have a Tyrion Jr. "Who looks like his uncle and thinks like his father." So as we see massive battles around the countryside, we have a quieter story of Payne trying to protect Shae from the Tywin's guards, the Hound, or whoever else is trying to get 'em as they walk across Westeros. Could be that Podrick Payne will be the POV in the next book. Part of me hopes not because that might mean something bad will happen to Tyrion. Hmmm.
labor
User ID: 0240854 		Feb 17th 12:23 PM
He-he, Street Prophet "looks like his uncle and thinks like his father" might very well be Tywin reborn... Anyway, I don't think that the series will span so many years that a babe yet unborn might play some role in it.

Now, I think that the Seaworth family is marked for some important things. Note that Davos together with his sons and wife make the number 9, which is apparently sacred to the First Men (i.e. a circle of 9 weirwoods, 9 spikes in Robb's crown, etc). He had 7 sons, which number is sacred to the New gods. And after the battle on the Blackwater Rush he is likely left with just 3 sons, which is a number sacred to Targaryens.

IMHO, Davos with his 3 younger sons will join Dany and after the gap his son Devan which is currently squire to Stannis will be the third knight of Dany's Queensguard (the first two being Ser Jorah and "Arstan", whom I suspect of being ser Barristan the Bold).
Zer0
User ID: 1432154 		Feb 17th 6:42 PM
It's prediction time with Zer0hour, the one with the answers (well, not really, but go with me here):

Jon Snow: Lives through the entire series as the hero of all the people. He is the closest epitome to a protagonist as we're gonna get.

Daenerys: Could be seen by some as evil, others as good. I see her as the enemy of the Baratheon/Lannister followers. After her victory, though, she will realize the Seven Kingdoms was never her place, and go back east to rule as Khaleesi of the largest and most powerful rove of Dothraki.

Tyrion: Whether he is on the Lannister's or Stark's or Targaryen's side by the end, he win die at the end of the final book as the greatest of Heroes.

Catelyn: She will die within the next couple of books trying to save Robb or another child of hers from a fatal blow.

Sansa: She will live through the entire series and be known as the next Kingslayer as she will be the hero of the people by bringing the death of Joffrey.

Arya: After traveling the eastern contenent, she finds Dany and will be the one responsible for bringing her to Westeros, known as the Bringer to the people who follow the Targaryen rule.

Bran: He will be a greater hero of them all as the one who forsees the planet's happenings past, present, and future. He will tell of the coming of Lord Snow and Mance Rayder who will free the people.

Davos: He will be known as the hero who led the navy that destroyed the Greyjoy rebellion.

Sam: Sam will be a hero when he finds Jon's body in the snow and revives him and travels with him to the Seven Kingdoms.
Malice
User ID: 9279843 		Feb 17th 7:11 PM
D'you really think that Dany will just turn back like a nice little girl? <g> Nice predictions, otherwise (who am I to say a thing, if I don't offer my own?).

OK, here they are: Catelyn, I believe, will die, along with Robb. Arya will live (this is probably wishful thinking) and become an assassin (wishful thinking again, no doubt). Sansa...this one's hard. I don't know whether or not she'll die, but like you, Zer0, I hope she poisons a certain flabby-lipped pretender to the throne...

If Jon lives, I hope he doesn't become king. He'd have to break his oaths, and that's the end of that. Martin really made me feel trapped with him during that time when he was considering running off, but now I feel it would really change his character if he somehow weasled his way out. He wouldn't be a Stark/Snow. He'd be Targaryen.

As for Daenerys, she's really gone through a lot; she oughta get the kingdom. As long as she doesn't go tipsy again and burn up people, she'll make a good queen. Heirs will undoubtedly be a problem, though (she should be thinking of them now -- I don't know why she's not).

No idea were Bran's headed. I have a hunch that he'll survive, even if all of the others die. And yes, I believe he'll have some sort of power (leaning towards a magical one).
Zer0
User ID: 1432154 		Feb 18th 8:41 AM
The thing with Daenerys is, throughout AGoT, she keeps thinking of "home." At first it's the house with the red door, then it's with Khal Drogo and the Dothraki. It wasn't until Drogo's death that she wanted to take Westeros. Truthfully, I don't think she TRULY wants the Westeros; she's never seen it and doesn't know anything of it but what she's been told. I think she believes it's her obligation as a Targaryen to do it, but she has always thought of the Eastern continent as home and may return there, leaving Westeros divided and ruled as Seven Kingdoms once again (or some amout of Kingdoms anyway).

And with Jon, are oaths more important than saving a continent? (This is a discussion elsewhere so I'll stop). What if he chases the Others into the 7 Kingdoms and all the people honor him then for it? He wouldn't have broken any oaths and he could still be a hero of the South.
Snake
User ID: 8890073 		Feb 18th 9:35 AM
Future heroes, eh?

Gendry. He will be Robert Baratheon born again and will aid Robb in his return as Ned aided Robert in the War of the Usurper.

Jon. He will command the Night's Watch against the onslaught of the Others.

Rickon. He will avenge the Starks as he will be a great fighter like his Uncle Brandon.

Arya. Perhaps she'll become a Faceless man and her first job will be to murder the exiled King in the North. What will she do?

Robert Arryn. Afetr the shocking death of his mother he will be raised by someone who'll raise him right and he'll come to the aid of the Starks and Tully's in the end.

Can't think of anymore.
Trebla
User ID: 0561484 		Feb 18th 10:29 AM
As far as Jon breaking his oaths...do you really believe there will be a wall or a Nightwatch left? IMHO if Mance doesn't destroy the wall, the Others will. That should free him from his oaths.
labor
User ID: 0067194 		Feb 18th 12:07 PM
"Now my watch begins. It will not end until my death". Whether the Wall stands or not, doesn't matter.
Nope, I don't think that Dany will go away after (if) she conquers and especially that she'll allow Westeros to fall into lots of squabbling kingdoms again. And if we didn't love Starks so much, we wouldn't even wish for such an evil thing to happen ;). 3 or 4 of the 7 kingdoms were always at war at any given time. Speak about misery.

Gendry... I really hope not. Another heroic bastard would be an overkill, IMHO. Also, he didn't show any of intelligence and leadership that Jon did.
labor
User ID: 0067194 		Feb 18th 12:25 PM
Forgotten to say who I think might become more prominent in the future, besides the Seaworths. I wouldn't say a hero, but just more noticeable.

A hypothetical bastard daughter of Tyrion's by Tysha. Yup, I know ;).

Pod Payne. He seems like a good fighter. No, he didn't beat Ser Mandon in any kind of fight, but he survived the battle and the fight on the bridge of ships unscatched at twelve (or early 13). And having Tyrion for a master he is bound to learn a lot.

Josmyn Peckledon. He will be the next boy-wonder fighter after Loras.

Larence Snow, Lord Hornwood's bastard (just a hunch).

Gendry, who might become a very good fighter. maybe he will even make a knight and marry Arya.

Olyvar Frey. He will be that rarest creature, a loyal Frey and will remain with the Starks even through theri defeat.

Either Tyta or Alyx Frey. I think one of them will marry Tyrion.

A young Lannister. Maybe even Tyrek.

Dickon Tarly.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 18th 12:47 PM
Gendry has revealed both perception, pragmatism, and leadership in the time we've seen him. There's some thread or other where I quoted a good half-dozen or more such instances.

He certainly was the one largely in charge after the death of Yoren, and showed a very sensible approach in how to carry himself. He's also relatively perceptive -- no one else seems to have noticed that Arya was a girl.

I'm not paricularly certain that Jon has shown himself as more intelligent, nor with more leadership quality.

I suppose one might argue that another heroic trueborn will be 'one too many'? I don't see what makes bastards so different from everyone else. ;) Certainly, he's the only bastard we've come across directly who hasn't had the benefit of some level of interaction with the nobility -- he's more a heroic everyman (ala Davos) then a heroic bastard.
labor
User ID: 0798784 		Feb 18th 4:09 PM
I am all for Gendry as a "heroic everyman". IMHO, he could make a good fighter or even knight. I am against Gendry "Robert reborn", Lord of Storm's End and King of Westeros. But then, I have said so often enough, IIRC.
Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 		Feb 19th 2:25 AM
Totally forgot about Dickon actually. He might turn out to be a nasty piece of work. Wasn't there a young boy who served under Stannis on Dragonstone? He was a young lordling with his symbol of a seahorse as I recall. I don't have the book with me right now though. Was he leader of the myrmen or something? He was a little plump too. I hate to think someone with such a cool symbol and neat sounding soldiers would turn out to be a dud in the hero department in later novels. Does this ring any bells with anyone? What was his name? Was it something Valyrian?
labor
User ID: 0798784 		Feb 19th 3:08 AM
The elegant extremely fair-haired (silver?) Lord with a sea-horse as his coat-of-arms was Lord Velaryon. His House is of Valyrian origin and 3 times provided brides for Targaryens, although one wonders by what methods did they manage to conserve their physical appearance and keep their blood relatively pure. He was commanding a ship during the battle on the Blackwater and most likely was armored in plate-and-mail, so his chances of survival would be rather slim.

The plump 14-year-old was Lord Bar Emmon. His arms was a swordfish and he is most likely dead because he was the one stupid enough to ram the hulk full of wildfire during the battle on the Blackwater.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 19th 5:24 AM
Probably by a fair amount of close marriage -- if not brothers to sisters, then cousins. And there might have been an infusion of Targaryen blood in that direction.

I'm not certain if Lord Bar Emmon was actually the captain of Swordfish. Davos thinks of him about three times, once to think to himself that he had grave doubts, once to note the captain was unable to keep Swordfish in close formation, once to note he was over-eager to ram something with that massive ram of his. But you'd think mentioning that part of the reason for his grave doubts was the boy's age would make sense.

And going back to Gendry, I don't see a problem with him as Lord of Storm's End, though it'd be much for him to become king. It certainly never even crossed my mind. As to 'Robert reborn' ... possibly.

Somewhat better than Robert in some senses -- Robert's good-hearted nature and courage, Robert's rough charisma, but none of Robert's quicksilver moods, madness, or gluttony. Though one would imagine he'll never be quite the warrior that Robert was (then again, it depends on what he does over the 5 year gap) nor will he be quite as acceptable to others to follow as a noble raised to it would be.

Which, of course, is why he'll need a wife with a good head for figures. ;)
labor
User ID: 0798784 		Feb 19th 4:20 PM
What I would hate about Gendry's rise to lordship, is an undisguised "blood will tell" attitude. Gendry (Edric Storm) is a son of the Great Lord and a fierce warrior, so although his origins were kept secret from him and he was raised as a commoner, without the least necessary training/education, he'll be the same.

BTW, look at Joff and maybe Robert Arryn to see what kind of offspring one gets if a _woman_ actually dares to be adulterous...

Not only don't I see Robert as admirable (actually he was a weak, foolish, vain and extremely egocentric man with a superficially "good heart", IMHO), and thus don't think that Robert himself would be capable of rising to lordship on his own merits. I.e. I wouldn't see "Robert reborn" as a blessing.
But I am also wary of the massive "heritage" component in ASOIAF. It has often grown rather unbearable in some other series. I.e. only people of certain bloodlines mattered or even the bloodline decided whether the person would be good or evil, etc. It is a trap I am afraid ASOIAF might fall into.
Abundance of "good" Starks and "evil" Lannisters is a worrisome enough indication. Even young Lannisters seem either rather evil (i.e. Joff, Lancel) or nonentities (Tommen, Myrcella). The fact that the Lannisters never were especially honorable - i.e. "The Hedge Knight" where Baratheon fights for Dunk and Lannisters don't is another step in this direction.

But if the Baratheon bastards turn out to be quite accomplished heroes while the Lannister ones treacherous scum, I'd say that the trap snapped shut.
Ran
User ID: 0867924 		Feb 19th 4:57 PM
Hrm ... adultery necessarily meaning bad children?

On the other hand, Daeron II might very probably have been the Dragonknight's son by his sister, and Daeron was certainly a brilliant diplomat and beloved king. I think it's moderately overboard to try to draw conclusions about what adultery leads to from two (and possibly three) examples.

I'm not certain that one can argue this thing about bastard -> great lord. I mean, if Stannis and so on are out of the running, Robert's bastards are entirely possible as choices, and Gendry appears to be the eldest male bastard. I'm not certain I see any problem with this. Should medieval inheritance customs be entirely bypassed simply because for most of his life he did not keep noble company?

The fierce warrior thing ... well, he _is_ fierce. He has that ferocious aspect about him. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have Robert's laughing fierceness (at least, I don't recall him laughing in berserk fury at any point -- something which Robert's ancestor, the Laughing Storm, exhibited as well.) And, as I said, I never expect him to be anything like his father as a warrior.

On the other hand, if he learns to be competent with the physical assets he has (size, strength, no doubt endurance -- all the things that made Robert so devastating a fighter in the melee), I don't see a cause for complaint. One presumes he'll be trained in fighting over that five year period. Or, if not, it'll probably something unexpected.

Your painting of Robert is also rather excessive. He was worn down by the throne and by his wife. He wasn't really meant to be a king -- something that Donal Noye on the Wall held as truth.

He was clearly a very admirable man in many ways -- he could have killed Barristan Selmy, he could have wreaked even more havoc on the Iron Islands than he needed to to end the rebellion, but he had a distinct generosity in him. That it ran out of control in the treasury is a fault.

But, again, I rather qualify the "Robert reborn" issue. He won't be exactly as Robert was. Perhaps he'll be more quarrelsome and slower to forget insults. Perhaps he'll be less generous of spirit. But he'll almost certainly not sure in all (or even most) of Robert's faults. He'll have his own set of them -- not being acknowledged and recieving the benefits of it being one of those problems in the future.


Really, this is excessive, this trying to link behavior across generations. How about Manfred Dondarrion, the vain, petty ancestor of the heroic Lord Beric?

Lord Lannister clearly wasn't interested in risking his life for a hedge knight he doesn't know who has brought down the ire of the Targaryens. Otho Bracken spoke the words that most everyone else was thinking. I can't say I blame them very much. Lord Caron and Lord Swann, on the other hand, showed themselves rather insenstive, making private jokes. At least the Grey Lion kept his peace.

Orys Baratheon, on the other hand, saw it as a great big game -- something for glory, for amusement. _And_ as a way to tweak Maekar's nose (it appears that, for whatever reason, he had something against Maekar.) Not exactly the most honorable or altruistic reasons to join combat. Not that that takes away from the fact that he did take the part of a man in need.

Martin has shown a very keen awareness of making both good and bad seeds appear in most of the houses. I certainly haven't seen anything at all like some bias for bastards -- indeed, I fully expect Edric Storm to turn out badly -- or "blood will tell."

Although, of course, to some degree the way one is raised is extremely important to how one turns out. It doesn't apply in Gendry's case, but there are other factors there.
labor
User ID: 0798784 		Feb 19th 5:20 PM
I am not aware of any medieval inheritance customs, Ran, which would grant a bastard who wasn't anknowledged by his father any inheritance rights to the father's lands/incomes.

And we have yet to see an evil Stark, too, just so there is a real diversity. A few evil/cowardly Baratheon bastards would be nice. And/or more decent Lannisters, etc. So far the only really diverse family seems to be Targaryens...
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