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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Who Do You Want Dead? II

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Emily
User ID: 0617234 Aug 13th 7:03 AM
Well, we're obviously all homicidal maniacs, because the first topic is full. I can't be bothered to copy the last few posts, but at the moment we're arguing about whether Asha deserves to die.

Kyle
User ID: 0589754 Aug 13th 7:57 AM
I hope nobody dies, they are all too interesting and I already miss the characters who have died already too much. Can't they all just get along?

labor
User ID: 8479113 Aug 13th 11:27 AM

I liked the discussion about Asha, so I decided to copy a few last posts:

Doc
User ID: 0770504
Aug 11th 2:04 AM
I think she just did it because it amused her and she's a hideous b*#ch ... My pardons. But whatever her motivation, toying with him in that manner, and making an enormous public joke of him was inexcusable. True, he's a bad guy. But overall, I don't think she's any better, and it strikes me on the raw to have someone strung along like that. Anyhow. Are there at least no arguments on the others?

Emily
User ID: 0617234
Aug 13th 6:58 AM

Doc, about Asha: the only way for a woman to make it in the Iron Isles is to be manlier than thou, so you shouldn't criticise her for it. And I think she had reasons other than amusement for her behaviour with Theon. She was, after all, her father's eldest child and right-hand man/woman. He
was a spoiled brat who'd spent ten years being nurtured by their enemies. Yet he strolled in and behaved as if he owned the place. She had to act quickly to establish her position as heir.

Anyway, Asha treated her brother a lot better than I would have done in her place. When he was swaying drunkenly on the rope-bridge, I'd have given him a shove off rather than a helping hand. And I sure as hell wouldn't have risked a journey to Winterfell to beg him 'for the sake of the mother who bore us both' to save his own skin.

About the rest of your list - yes, I'm sure I can come up with a few arguments :) Why aren't Jaime and Theon on it? And why do you want to destroy the entire city of Quarth? At least they let women keep their own property after marriage.

labor
User ID: 8479113 Aug 13th 12:44 PM

Well, IMHO if any character is really bitchy in the series, Doc, it is Theon. You may find lots of unflattering epithets for Asha, but that's really not one of them.

Also, even leaving alone the fact that Theon came to take away her hard won position by the sole (dubious) virtue of being a male and his silly conceited behaviour, he doesn't care about his family. Theon only thinks about how he could use them for his own aggrandizment. He feels no loyality towards them, no connection. He can't be bothered to spare a day (sic!) to visit their gravely ill mother. He only sees all his other relatives as potential rivals for power and glory.

I really don't see why anyone would think that Asha should have welcomed Theon with open arms or that her treatment of him makes her evil. IMHO it was richly deserved.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Aug 13th 2:10 PM
I would like to see Gregor Clegane get his just desserts.

Kristin Aug 13th 2:42 PM
I'm with labor and Emily here. Theon had been in the Iron Islands for at least two weeks (while walking past the ship that brought him, he recalls that it had tried to leave a fortnight ago) before he ran into "Esgred", and he _still_ hadn't learned a thing about anyone. Had he bothered to spend some time with his father's shipwright (and wouldn't that be a sensible thing for a prince of the Iron Islands to do?) Asha wouldn't have been able to fool him. She says so herself.

Maester Ching
User ID: 9070813 Aug 13th 2:45 PM
I want ALL Tyrells,Redwines,and Rowans DIE!!!!
Well.. except Loras and Marge..

Min
User ID: 9433023 Aug 13th 4:34 PM
We have a slight difference of opinions here, dear Maester. I do not wish general death to the tyrells or any other family. But it would be fun to see the treacherous bastard Loras DiCaprio die...
*evil grin*

Donald S. Crankshaw
User ID: 9802413 Aug 14th 3:15 PM
I vote for Varys. Oh, and Illyrio, too.

After that, it's fairly standard: Joffrey, Cersei, Gregor, and the Ramsay Snow/Bolton. I don't know of anyone else I _really_ want dead, although there are a few others I won't grieve.

Moreta
User ID: 8346323 Aug 16th 1:57 PM
I might grieve if Jaime Lannister died...he's an interesting character :)

Min
User ID: 9433023 Aug 16th 3:38 PM
I think there are two sides from which to approach the topic: Wanting some characters dead as characters does not necessarily mean wanting these characters disappear from the story. Villains are the spice of a story. As far as I can think, Loras is the only one for me who fits in both criterias.
But even for the first category onely, I cannot _really_ think of anyone I seriously would want dead. I am just too goodhearted for this world (any of both worlds), I think :-)
Loras is just the one who annoys me most. The one I hate most... Gregor, I think. As nearly everyone. :-)

As for Varys, Donald: I think it will turn out that he belongs to the good guys after all. And Jaime... well, I think he will change... somehow.

Donald S. Crankshaw
User ID: 9802413 Aug 16th 4:29 PM
I still think Varys is evil... but I spent enough time arguing it on the Varys topic under A Storm of Swords, so I won't repeat it here. Suffice it to say that if I'm right, he's right up there with Gregor and the BoB.

Doc
User ID: 0770504 Aug 17th 2:24 PM
Ahum.

I agree, on reflection, that I was rash in my judgment of Asha. Clearly, Theon has always been a whiny little runt, and it was folly to think otherwise.

However, I'd like to point out that far from leaving Theon out, I have the ENTIRE GREYJOY CLAN (well, their main characters, at any rate) on my hit list. Simply growing up in a cruel wasteland gives no one leave to go raping, pillaging, murdering and thieving from one's own sworn liegelord, no matter how that came to pass.

And, for my part, I don't think there's enough evidence yet, against either Varys, Illyrio, or Sandor to convict them and send them to execution. I don't agree with killing Sandor, because he has his own honor, of a sort, and it's more real, more honest, than that of most men in Westeros.

Daniel R. Baker
User ID: 1425064 Aug 17th 3:45 PM
I really, really, want to see Theon dead. (He may be dead already, the last chapter isn't really clear on that, but being stomped on by a horse is certainly potentially fatal). I was overjoyed the minute he let Bolton pass the gates, because I knew immediately that his "rescuers" would betray him, even though I thought it was Reek rather than Bolton in the lead.

If Theon is dead already, then I'll settle for Gregor Clegane or the Bastard of Bolton. I'm pretty hard to shock these days, but what happened to poor Lady Hornwood really caught me off balance and made me shudder. She seemed such a nice and inoffensive lady, and it really never occurred to me something so horrible would befall her. Gregor, of course, requires no explanation.

Even so, I prefer honest, out-and-out naked villainy, like that of Bolton or Clegane, to the stupid, simpering, backstabbing actions of Theon. Bolton or Clegane generate clean hatred; Theon generates disgust.

Daniel R. Baker
User ID: 1425064 Aug 18th 8:55 AM
P.S.: When we discuss characters we want to see dead, I'm thinking about characters that I would actually do in myself if Ice were in my hands. I like Asha, but I can understand the point of view of those who think she's a baiting hag. I might agree if I didn't think Theon had it all coming to him. But I certainly could not kill Asha with Ice. I'm not even sure I could bring myself to kill Joffrey, horrible though he is; he's awfully young. But I would behead Theon, Bolton, or Gregor without a second thought.

Moreta
User ID: 9565813 Aug 18th 1:56 PM
Daniel, I agree, that what happened to Lady Hornwood caught me off guard. She was a nice lady. I think GRRM's point is that every one is fair game hence Ned.

I wouldn't behead Theon but I'd flay him within an inch of his bones. I loathe him but I'd behead Gregor easily.

Doc
User ID: 0770504 Aug 20th 2:31 AM
If it comes down to wielding Ice myself, I don't know that I could do it. Call me craven, if you must, but it's not in me to take the life from a man or woman, ANY man or woman.

It's the idea of having a human being's blood on my hands for the rest of my life that terrifies me. An old uncle of mine was in this elite class of Marines, and was sent abroad to kill. After coming home, the memory of thirty-two men who would never again kiss their mother, hold their children, or embrace their wives haunts him.

Wethers
User ID: 2205324 Aug 21st 1:29 AM
I'm with you Doc, but that's probably due to a relatively affluent, settled, 20th century upbringing. If I grew up in the SOIF world ... who knows.

Jon couldn't kill Ygritte, but he justifies it to Qhorin by saying that there was no evil in her. I'm guessing he would whack Joff without hesitation.

As for my hit list, I have a few additions to the usual litany. It would be even longer, except some (Viserys Targaryen, Mandon Moore, Reek, Alar Deem, Aerys II) are already dead. Besides it takes too long as it is to repeat all these every time when I'm about to go to sleep.

20. Boros Blount
19. Alester Florent
18. Little Walder (well, we'll give him 5 years teenage rehab to change his ways)
17. Amory Lorch
16. Magister Illyrio
15. Robert Arryn (see Little Walder, above, but make it 10 years)
14. Xaro Xhoan Daxos
13. Grand Maester Pycelle
12. Randyll Tarly
11. Pyat Pree
10. Meryn Trant
9. Raff the Sweetling/The Tickler/and the rest of G. Clegane's men
8. Tywin Lannister (give him Viserys' golden crown)
7. Loras Tyrell (no real reason)
6. Cersei Lannister (well, just castrate Jaime to punish her)
5. Theon Greyjoy (and pretty much the rest of the on-screen Iron Isle reavers other than Asha, who just needs some community service work)
4. Ramsay Snow/Bolton (let's see a little direwolf-dispensed revenge)
3. Gregor Clegane (how about a little taste of wildfire to even up childhood debts)
2. Joffrey (let Belwas tear him limb from limb)
1. Petyr Baelish (use a dull, rusty saw on this %$*#^*$, not Valyrian steel ... better yet, flay him first ... very slowly)

*Takes a deep breath*
*Tactfully wipes froth from mouth*

Screw upbringing - the rain will wash my hands clean afterwards.

out

Wethers

Doc
User ID: 0770504 Aug 21st 6:15 PM
Do you know, Wethers, I think you and I will get along juuuust fine :)
At least, we are of the same opinion on Robert Arryn (altho I don't know that I'd even give him any time to mature, first) ... Dany's treacherous trio, Loras Tyrell (for the same reason, oddly enough), and most of all --- LITTLEFINGER.
Everybody seems to want him dead, but nobody seems to understand how much he NEEDS to be first. Pain. I see much Pain in Littlefinger's future. And I, not being the inducer, will revel in it when the time comes ...

Oh, and I think you missed Ser Ilyn Payne.

Wethers
User ID: 2205324 Aug 21st 9:44 PM
Done

Ilyn Payne and Janos Slynt, Ned's murderers. The Night's Watch is better than Janos deserves.

out

Wethers

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Emily User ID: 0617234	Aug 13th 7:03 AM Well, we're obviously all homicidal maniacs, because the first topic is full. I can't be bothered to copy the last few posts, but at the moment we're arguing about whether Asha deserves to die.
Kyle User ID: 0589754	Aug 13th 7:57 AM I hope nobody dies, they are all too interesting and I already miss the characters who have died already too much. Can't they all just get along?
labor User ID: 8479113	Aug 13th 11:27 AM I liked the discussion about Asha, so I decided to copy a few last posts: Doc User ID: 0770504 Aug 11th 2:04 AM I think she just did it because it amused her and she's a hideous b*#ch ... My pardons. But whatever her motivation, toying with him in that manner, and making an enormous public joke of him was inexcusable. True, he's a bad guy. But overall, I don't think she's any better, and it strikes me on the raw to have someone strung along like that. Anyhow. Are there at least no arguments on the others? Emily User ID: 0617234 Aug 13th 6:58 AM Doc, about Asha: the only way for a woman to make it in the Iron Isles is to be manlier than thou, so you shouldn't criticise her for it. And I think she had reasons other than amusement for her behaviour with Theon. She was, after all, her father's eldest child and right-hand man/woman. He was a spoiled brat who'd spent ten years being nurtured by their enemies. Yet he strolled in and behaved as if he owned the place. She had to act quickly to establish her position as heir. Anyway, Asha treated her brother a lot better than I would have done in her place. When he was swaying drunkenly on the rope-bridge, I'd have given him a shove off rather than a helping hand. And I sure as hell wouldn't have risked a journey to Winterfell to beg him 'for the sake of the mother who bore us both' to save his own skin. About the rest of your list - yes, I'm sure I can come up with a few arguments :) Why aren't Jaime and Theon on it? And why do you want to destroy the entire city of Quarth? At least they let women keep their own property after marriage.
labor User ID: 8479113	Aug 13th 12:44 PM Well, IMHO if any character is really bitchy in the series, Doc, it is Theon. You may find lots of unflattering epithets for Asha, but that's really not one of them. Also, even leaving alone the fact that Theon came to take away her hard won position by the sole (dubious) virtue of being a male and his silly conceited behaviour, he doesn't care about his family. Theon only thinks about how he could use them for his own aggrandizment. He feels no loyality towards them, no connection. He can't be bothered to spare a day (sic!) to visit their gravely ill mother. He only sees all his other relatives as potential rivals for power and glory. I really don't see why anyone would think that Asha should have welcomed Theon with open arms or that her treatment of him makes her evil. IMHO it was richly deserved.
Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Aug 13th 2:10 PM I would like to see Gregor Clegane get his just desserts.
Kristin	Aug 13th 2:42 PM I'm with labor and Emily here. Theon had been in the Iron Islands for at least two weeks (while walking past the ship that brought him, he recalls that it had tried to leave a fortnight ago) before he ran into "Esgred", and he _still_ hadn't learned a thing about anyone. Had he bothered to spend some time with his father's shipwright (and wouldn't that be a sensible thing for a prince of the Iron Islands to do?) Asha wouldn't have been able to fool him. She says so herself.
Maester Ching User ID: 9070813	Aug 13th 2:45 PM I want ALL Tyrells,Redwines,and Rowans DIE!!!! Well.. except Loras and Marge..
Min User ID: 9433023	Aug 13th 4:34 PM We have a slight difference of opinions here, dear Maester. I do not wish general death to the tyrells or any other family. But it would be fun to see the treacherous bastard Loras DiCaprio die... evil grin
Donald S. Crankshaw User ID: 9802413	Aug 14th 3:15 PM I vote for Varys. Oh, and Illyrio, too. After that, it's fairly standard: Joffrey, Cersei, Gregor, and the Ramsay Snow/Bolton. I don't know of anyone else I _really_ want dead, although there are a few others I won't grieve.
Moreta User ID: 8346323	Aug 16th 1:57 PM I might grieve if Jaime Lannister died...he's an interesting character :)
Min User ID: 9433023	Aug 16th 3:38 PM I think there are two sides from which to approach the topic: Wanting some characters dead as characters does not necessarily mean wanting these characters disappear from the story. Villains are the spice of a story. As far as I can think, Loras is the only one for me who fits in both criterias. But even for the first category onely, I cannot _really_ think of anyone I seriously would want dead. I am just too goodhearted for this world (any of both worlds), I think :-) Loras is just the one who annoys me most. The one I hate most... Gregor, I think. As nearly everyone. :-) As for Varys, Donald: I think it will turn out that he belongs to the good guys after all. And Jaime... well, I think he will change... somehow.
Donald S. Crankshaw User ID: 9802413	Aug 16th 4:29 PM I still think Varys is evil... but I spent enough time arguing it on the Varys topic under A Storm of Swords, so I won't repeat it here. Suffice it to say that if I'm right, he's right up there with Gregor and the BoB.
Doc User ID: 0770504	Aug 17th 2:24 PM Ahum. I agree, on reflection, that I was rash in my judgment of Asha. Clearly, Theon has always been a whiny little runt, and it was folly to think otherwise. However, I'd like to point out that far from leaving Theon out, I have the ENTIRE GREYJOY CLAN (well, their main characters, at any rate) on my hit list. Simply growing up in a cruel wasteland gives no one leave to go raping, pillaging, murdering and thieving from one's own sworn liegelord, no matter how that came to pass. And, for my part, I don't think there's enough evidence yet, against either Varys, Illyrio, or Sandor to convict them and send them to execution. I don't agree with killing Sandor, because he has his own honor, of a sort, and it's more real, more honest, than that of most men in Westeros.
Daniel R. Baker User ID: 1425064	Aug 17th 3:45 PM I really, really, want to see Theon dead. (He may be dead already, the last chapter isn't really clear on that, but being stomped on by a horse is certainly potentially fatal). I was overjoyed the minute he let Bolton pass the gates, because I knew immediately that his "rescuers" would betray him, even though I thought it was Reek rather than Bolton in the lead. If Theon is dead already, then I'll settle for Gregor Clegane or the Bastard of Bolton. I'm pretty hard to shock these days, but what happened to poor Lady Hornwood really caught me off balance and made me shudder. She seemed such a nice and inoffensive lady, and it really never occurred to me something so horrible would befall her. Gregor, of course, requires no explanation. Even so, I prefer honest, out-and-out naked villainy, like that of Bolton or Clegane, to the stupid, simpering, backstabbing actions of Theon. Bolton or Clegane generate clean hatred; Theon generates disgust.
Daniel R. Baker User ID: 1425064	Aug 18th 8:55 AM P.S.: When we discuss characters we want to see dead, I'm thinking about characters that I would actually do in myself if Ice were in my hands. I like Asha, but I can understand the point of view of those who think she's a baiting hag. I might agree if I didn't think Theon had it all coming to him. But I certainly could not kill Asha with Ice. I'm not even sure I could bring myself to kill Joffrey, horrible though he is; he's awfully young. But I would behead Theon, Bolton, or Gregor without a second thought.
Moreta User ID: 9565813	Aug 18th 1:56 PM Daniel, I agree, that what happened to Lady Hornwood caught me off guard. She was a nice lady. I think GRRM's point is that every one is fair game hence Ned. I wouldn't behead Theon but I'd flay him within an inch of his bones. I loathe him but I'd behead Gregor easily.
Doc User ID: 0770504	Aug 20th 2:31 AM If it comes down to wielding Ice myself, I don't know that I could do it. Call me craven, if you must, but it's not in me to take the life from a man or woman, ANY man or woman. It's the idea of having a human being's blood on my hands for the rest of my life that terrifies me. An old uncle of mine was in this elite class of Marines, and was sent abroad to kill. After coming home, the memory of thirty-two men who would never again kiss their mother, hold their children, or embrace their wives haunts him.
Wethers User ID: 2205324	Aug 21st 1:29 AM I'm with you Doc, but that's probably due to a relatively affluent, settled, 20th century upbringing. If I grew up in the SOIF world ... who knows. Jon couldn't kill Ygritte, but he justifies it to Qhorin by saying that there was no evil in her. I'm guessing he would whack Joff without hesitation. As for my hit list, I have a few additions to the usual litany. It would be even longer, except some (Viserys Targaryen, Mandon Moore, Reek, Alar Deem, Aerys II) are already dead. Besides it takes too long as it is to repeat all these every time when I'm about to go to sleep. 20. Boros Blount 19. Alester Florent 18. Little Walder (well, we'll give him 5 years teenage rehab to change his ways) 17. Amory Lorch 16. Magister Illyrio 15. Robert Arryn (see Little Walder, above, but make it 10 years) 14. Xaro Xhoan Daxos 13. Grand Maester Pycelle 12. Randyll Tarly 11. Pyat Pree 10. Meryn Trant 9. Raff the Sweetling/The Tickler/and the rest of G. Clegane's men 8. Tywin Lannister (give him Viserys' golden crown) 7. Loras Tyrell (no real reason) 6. Cersei Lannister (well, just castrate Jaime to punish her) 5. Theon Greyjoy (and pretty much the rest of the on-screen Iron Isle reavers other than Asha, who just needs some community service work) 4. Ramsay Snow/Bolton (let's see a little direwolf-dispensed revenge) 3. Gregor Clegane (how about a little taste of wildfire to even up childhood debts) 2. Joffrey (let Belwas tear him limb from limb) 1. Petyr Baelish (use a dull, rusty saw on this %$#^$, not Valyrian steel ... better yet, flay him first ... very slowly) Takes a deep breath Tactfully wipes froth from mouth Screw upbringing - the rain will wash my hands clean afterwards. out Wethers
Doc User ID: 0770504	Aug 21st 6:15 PM Do you know, Wethers, I think you and I will get along juuuust fine :) At least, we are of the same opinion on Robert Arryn (altho I don't know that I'd even give him any time to mature, first) ... Dany's treacherous trio, Loras Tyrell (for the same reason, oddly enough), and most of all --- LITTLEFINGER. Everybody seems to want him dead, but nobody seems to understand how much he NEEDS to be first. Pain. I see much Pain in Littlefinger's future. And I, not being the inducer, will revel in it when the time comes ... Oh, and I think you missed Ser Ilyn Payne.
Wethers User ID: 2205324	Aug 21st 9:44 PM Done Ilyn Payne and Janos Slynt, Ned's murderers. The Night's Watch is better than Janos deserves. out Wethers