A mirror of the eeesite "A Song of Ice and Fire"

This is a mirror of the now defunct eesite ASOIAF webboard.

The discussions for G.R.R. Martin's awesome series "A Song of Ice and Fire" are now being held at: Current ASoIaF Webboard

You cannot post new messages to this board. Go to the Current ASoIaF Webboard for the most current discussions.

A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Jaquen H'gar

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 13th 10:41 AM
Who is Jaqen H'gar? Why was he in Westeros? When did he arrive in Westeros? Why was he in KL's dungeon? How long had he been in the dungeon? Is it possible that JH is a Faceless Man? Why would that be more probable than him being a Magician of some sort, whose powers have grown since the birth of Dany's dragons?

There are so many questions surrounding this man, and very little discussion. Interesting.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 13th 11:11 AM
Oh, it's out there. It's just spread out all over the place.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 13th 11:20 AM
I saw one thread and it was pretty short. It was primarily made up of very unlikely theories as to the who, what, when, where, and why of JH. In summary it was believed that JH is a Faceless Man, and it was proposed that JH was also Syrio Forel. Some theorized that JH was possibly there to kill Robb Stark, Melisandre, or even Thoros of Myr.

I find all of those possibilities highly unlikely, except for the Faceless Man idea.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 13th 11:33 AM
I'm fairly sure there are other discussions that were not clearly labelled as having to do with him but wandered in that direction.

However, part of the reason discussion hasn't really moved forward is that those things you consider "highly unlikely" are pretty much tapping any of the remotely-reasonable guesses. Too little is known about Jaqen H'ghar to do much better, I think.

If you've your own ideas that you find more likely, you should put them forward as a springboard for discussion. New ideas are always welcome.

BROOKLYN
User ID: 0714654 Jan 13th 1:30 PM
I think that Jaqen H'gar is a Faceless Man, and that the Faceless Men must use some kind of sorcery or magic to do what they do. When Jaqen changes faces in front of Arya, he grows a scar and his hair completely changes, all in an instant; this isn't just muscle control and makeup. Also, getting a dog to kill its owner from birth requires a lil something beyond skill at assassination. But just because Jaqen and Syrio are both from Braavos doesn't mean anything ... I don't think the ex-First Sword of Braavos would also be a Faceless Man, although admittedly we don't know enough about Braavos to be sure about this. But I just don't think Syrio and Jaqen are the same.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 13th 2:06 PM
Jaqen's from Lorath. They are both from the Free Cities, is probably what you meant.

Jaqen's change also includes a gold tooth appearing out of nowhere. It's certainly magic.

Finally, the case for Syrio=Jaqen is iffy, but it can't be discounted. I can't recall which thread it is that deals with Jaqen and Syrio, however. I don't think it particularly _matters_ whether Jaqen is Syrio or not, but the possibility is there.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Jan 13th 2:33 PM
Wow, I never even considered that Jaqen and Syrio could be one in the same. That makes for interesting reading. Good catch whoever came up with that theory.

Ummm, Has anyone already considered that Varys could be a Faceless Man? That might just open up a new can of worms.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 13th 3:05 PM
I suppose it's not impossible, but if he were you'd think he'd have used the ability to make a very complete disguise for himself when Arya spied him talking with Ilyrio. Unless, of course, there are restrictions on the way the Faceless Men do things (which is a speculation of mine, i.e. that once they abandon a face they can never resume it again and, perhaps, they can only change faces on the completion of some oathed goal/contract.)

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 13th 5:56 PM
The arguments supporting JH also being Syrio are that we did not actually see Syrio die at the hands of Mandon Moore or the Gold Cloaks, and that he knew Arya's true identity. This is very thin circumstantial evidence at best.

As Arya flees the room, Syrio is facing a member of the Kingsguard and a number of guardsmen. Syrio has cracked a few guardsmen skulls with a practice sword, and is facing Moore. From everything we have seen about Ser Mandon Moore's character, what would lead us to believe he would spare Syrio? Even if he was knocked unconscious, Moore would open Syrio's throat and be happy to have it done. The Lannister were killing anyone associated with the Starks and the "dancing master" would not be spared.

Let's say that JH is Syrio and was captured. How would Syrio have gotten selected by Yoren? Ned gave Yoren pick of the dungeon and IIRC Yoren was on his way out of KL when Ned was axed.

As for him knowing Arya's true identity, he probably overheard Arya and the Bull talking. How?
JH probably followed Arya after she saved him from the fire. He owed her three lives and was looking out for. This would explain his knowing who she was and where after she was captured. AS JH always says, "A man hears, a man knows".

This is more probable, but just as thin as the theory that JH is Syrio.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 13th 6:21 PM
I think the theory would run that a Faceless Man who is knocked into unconsciousness takes on his "true" form -- the face of the person he actually is. Hence, you get Jaqen H'ghar, a Lorathi.

I think all the rest is covered elsewhere. Jaqen gets his freedom by someone (Varys? Cersei? Littlefinger?) offering to engineer it and in return getting to pick someone to assassinate (I'm guessing Robb, mostly because I'm betting on Arya meeting up with her family again, only for chaos to break loose as Robb is killed and maybe some other treachery happens and Arya being spirited away by Jaqen not realizing he's her brother's murderer.)

Who exactly did it, who knows. But it's hard to imagine a Faceless Man being imprisoned in the deepest cells just because. The only ways he could have gotten there: framed or caught. The only way he could have been caught were if his cover were blown.

Now, framed... this leads to a separate line. Jaqen was not Syrio. He was, however, the man who poisoned Jon Arryn (there's problems with this -- further down.) Hired by Varys, one would suppose, though one never knows about Cersei or Lysa with Littlefinger's help (I'm just throwing out names to show how impossible it is to come up with a satisfactory explaination of Jaqen.) After doing the deed, his employeer decided to double-cross him and stick him in prison for future use (which means someone incredibly dumb, incredibly ambitious, incredibly arrogant, or incredibly self-assured -- Lysa, Littlefinger, Cersei, and Varys)

The main problem with someone spending the coin necessary to kill Jon Arryn using a Faceless Man is ... well, why? Why bother? The man didn't have his food tasted beforehand or anything like. Anyone could have dropped a droplet of the tears of Lys into food or drink and he'd be dead. So, you've got some benefit for Ser Hugh doing it, leaving plenty of room for deciding that Jaqen must have had his cover blown (knocked out, somehow identified [Varys would be the likely culprit there], whatever.)

In any case, my personal theory in a (big) nutshell:

Jaqen may or may not have been Syrio. He was in King's Landing to scope out the scene before going after his target -- Melisandre of Asshai. His employers would be the Red Priesthood, I think, or perhaps some powerful person/group in Asshai. The reasons could be:

1) She's a heretic by the standards of the priesthood.

2) She's a zealot who stole Lightbringer from wherever it was kept

and/or . . .

3) She's a shadowbinder who should not be meddling in what she's meddling. Or something else, along those lines.

Anyhow, somehow he gets caught (knocked out as Syrio, spotted and captured as himself, etc.), whoever (Varys seems likeliest, though Cersei and Littlefinger have to be counted as well) lets him go free so long as he promises to kill someone . Robb, probably. He gets taken northwards, will make his escape at some point (loooong trip from KL to the Wall, given the wagons), then find Robb and off him before going on his way to finishing the Melisandre job.

Or something. I expect he'll kill Robb and spirit Arya away in the chaos (no doubt there'll be some other treachery which she needs rescuing from) with her never knowing until many years later that he killed her brother. Nice angst-filled situation there. "My savior, mentor, and friend murdered my brother!"

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 14th 7:04 AM
The problem I see with him being planted in the dungeons is the cover story the gave him. He did something sufficiently evil enough to make Yoren, if not scared, very weary of him. Weary enough to keep him in chains for a trip that is thousands of miles long.

Why would they tell Yoren he murdered/raped, instead of he is a thief or con man?

Jon Arryn was murdered by Maester what's his face in KL. Tyrion made him admit it, when Shagga was going to feed his manhood to the goats. So it had to be someone other than Jon Arryn.

I believe he had to have completed his job because he was on his way out of Westeros after killing those people for Arya, otherwise he would have stayed to complete his task.

Robb could not be the target because Yoren had pick of the dungeon and left KL BEFORE Robb rebelled in the North. Robb did not hear of Ned's execution for weeks.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 14th 7:38 AM
Actually, the Grand Maester admitted to making sure he died -- he didn't give the poison himself. He knew what it was, could have taken measures to save Jon, but he didn't. He indicated that it must have been Ser Hugh who delivered the poison, but we don't know why he's so certain.

I don't believe there was a suggestion that he was leaving directly across the sea. He offered to take Arya with him, but he didn't couch terms in time frame. He just left, noting that he had obligations to meet (like a promise give in a certain dungeon cell deep under the Red Keep . . .?)

And Ned was a prisoner for more than a week. If Yoren got his pick somewhere around then, it's entirely possible that whoever decided such matters worked the deal with Jaqen. Varys and Littlefinger, for example, saw the writing on the wall from the time of Robert's death.

Of course, I'm uncertain why Varys would be so interested in seeing Robb dead now rather than later. That's a problem.

But it's certainly a major problem for Jaqen to be in the deepest cells, an unheralded Faceless Man who has apparently killed no one (or killed Jon Arryn for someone who decided to make sure the job went right rather than saving himself a few tens of thousands of gold dragons) but is allowed to go off to the Wall.

Anyone have any ideas on how else to explain the matter? Faceless Men aren't hired casually. If he killed someone, we would probably have heard of it. The only major death was Jon Arryn, and it's very debatable that Jaqen had anything to do with it. Which is why I prefer the idea that he's after Melisandre and was scoping out the scene in KL when, somehow, he was caught.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 14th 10:10 AM
Well, I cannot say exactly what kind of business Jaqen was on.
For all I know, it might not have been a Faceless man 'assignment' at all. I mean, even if you're able to change your face at will, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can blend in easily into a foreign culture with strange habits, language, accents, etc.

Perhaps Jaqen was doing some field research in between assignments, in order to learn more about Westeros in general, now in disguise as a Lorathi.
It doesn't explain how he ended up in the dungeons, of course...

As an aside, I think we can be almost completely sure that it in fact was Ser Hugh who was behind the actual poisoning. It was confirmed by two different sources - Varys told Eddard, and Pycelle told Tyrion.
(I doubt Varys would have told Pycelle - the Grand Maester very clearly is not friendly disposed to the Spider.)

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 14th 11:08 AM
I don't know if I'd put it as "almost completely sure." Anything Varys says can be seen as suspect if it serves his own ends. If he wanted Eddard to be more careful and more suspicious of the Lannisters, using Hugh (who "tragically" met his death) to scare him would work.

Pycelle, on the other hand, only says that Varys and Cersei would confirm that it was Hugh, that he "must" have done it. We don't know his reasoning.

If Varys hired a Faceless Man to handle Jon Arryn, Hugh would be the natural "fallguy" so to speak.

Not that I buy that anyone would waste a Faceless Man's talents on a simple poisoning. I do figure that Hugh was the one who did it. But I'd be careful of how certain one should be about it.

Kevin
User ID: 0053014 Jan 14th 7:41 PM
Evidence for Hugh doing it: He was the ONLY one killed at the tourney. He was killed by Gregor who is beholden to the Lanister's. Coincidence?

Relic
User ID: 9308123 Jan 14th 7:55 PM
If Syrio and Jaqen are one and the same then we know how Jaqen ended up in prison. Nothing is really mentioned about Syrio when we last see him, facing off against a fully armored knight, but being so skilled with a blade would warrent a deep dark danky cell , and shakles all the way up to the wall. Obviously thought, we dont know if they are the same person.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 14th 7:59 PM
Lets see. The match was single-elimination, random draw to figure out who went against who.

Ser Hugh managed to draw his first match against someone he could beat. Coincidence.

That match also happened to be in the opposite position from Gregor's in the tree, so that Hugh's second match would be against the winner's second match. Coincidence.

Hugh's gorget was put on improperly, leaving his neck open to a precise lance blow. Coincidence.

Gregor, Hugh's second round opponent, happens to be a psycho who likes to kill people and also happens to be able to hit just about any target he cares to. Coincidence.

Yeah, I think it could be coincidence. ;)

There's no way that Gregor could have killed Hugh if the gorget was put on right. He could have seriously hurt him, maybe, but not kill him. So right there is the big chance that would have made rigging everything (which one would have to assume, one supposes) pointless.

If he was eliminated but not killed, they'd have to hope he took part in the melee to try to kill him. And even then there'd be a chance that they'd fail.

You know, it seems to me they would have had an easier time of it if they just had someone stab him in his tent or on a street or something. Why wait until the tourney to kill him?

Anyhow, it could easily be coincidence. I'm not saying it definently is, but it definently could be. Then it'd be a red herring to distract us, is all.

Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Jan 15th 1:39 AM
Perhaps Styrio beat off his opponents, fled, and changed his disguise. He was still trying to escape the Red Keep, and was attacked by Red Cloaks again, but this time in his real appearance (probably looked raggedy). Beat more off, but was overwhelmed by numbers, capured, and put into the Black Hole of Calcutta.

I liked Styrio, and wouldn't be surprised if he popped up next to Arya, and said that he'd escaped and followed her trail because he was still nominally under Stark employment. Perhaps he's an honorable murderer (oxymoron), and wants to see his charge safely back to her family.

and they all lived happily ever after. **sob** **sob** I think I'm going to cry.

ab

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 15th 9:39 AM
Ran;

Are you suggesting that Varys told Pycelle?

If so, that'd bottom out my argument pretty fast, since Pycelle wouldn't be an 'independent' source longer.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 15th 11:51 AM
Well, Pycelle does hold Varys up as one of the persons who could confirm it was Hugh. I don't think I should speculate on why, but he certainly must have some reason to think Varys would know -- either because Varys's reputation, or Varys did tell him, or something.

One hint may be the fact that, in GoT, Pycelle looks closely at Varys just after Varys mentions the tears of Lys in connection with an attempt on Dany's life. This has always suggested to me a certain suspicion. Maybe he figures Varys got Hugh to do it at Cersei's request? Or maybe Varys is just smugly gloating over the fact that he can drop a hint about the tears of Lys to Pycelle's discomfiture?

I don't know. But I do find it interesting. Like I've always said, I've always thought this whole mess surrounding the assassination was the murkiest and most complex of the mysteries presented to us.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 13th 10:41 AM Who is Jaqen H'gar? Why was he in Westeros? When did he arrive in Westeros? Why was he in KL's dungeon? How long had he been in the dungeon? Is it possible that JH is a Faceless Man? Why would that be more probable than him being a Magician of some sort, whose powers have grown since the birth of Dany's dragons? There are so many questions surrounding this man, and very little discussion. Interesting.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 13th 11:11 AM Oh, it's out there. It's just spread out all over the place.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 13th 11:20 AM I saw one thread and it was pretty short. It was primarily made up of very unlikely theories as to the who, what, when, where, and why of JH. In summary it was believed that JH is a Faceless Man, and it was proposed that JH was also Syrio Forel. Some theorized that JH was possibly there to kill Robb Stark, Melisandre, or even Thoros of Myr. I find all of those possibilities highly unlikely, except for the Faceless Man idea.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 13th 11:33 AM I'm fairly sure there are other discussions that were not clearly labelled as having to do with him but wandered in that direction. However, part of the reason discussion hasn't really moved forward is that those things you consider "highly unlikely" are pretty much tapping any of the remotely-reasonable guesses. Too little is known about Jaqen H'ghar to do much better, I think. If you've your own ideas that you find more likely, you should put them forward as a springboard for discussion. New ideas are always welcome.
BROOKLYN User ID: 0714654	Jan 13th 1:30 PM I think that Jaqen H'gar is a Faceless Man, and that the Faceless Men must use some kind of sorcery or magic to do what they do. When Jaqen changes faces in front of Arya, he grows a scar and his hair completely changes, all in an instant; this isn't just muscle control and makeup. Also, getting a dog to kill its owner from birth requires a lil something beyond skill at assassination. But just because Jaqen and Syrio are both from Braavos doesn't mean anything ... I don't think the ex-First Sword of Braavos would also be a Faceless Man, although admittedly we don't know enough about Braavos to be sure about this. But I just don't think Syrio and Jaqen are the same.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 13th 2:06 PM Jaqen's from Lorath. They are both from the Free Cities, is probably what you meant. Jaqen's change also includes a gold tooth appearing out of nowhere. It's certainly magic. Finally, the case for Syrio=Jaqen is iffy, but it can't be discounted. I can't recall which thread it is that deals with Jaqen and Syrio, however. I don't think it particularly _matters_ whether Jaqen is Syrio or not, but the possibility is there.
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Jan 13th 2:33 PM Wow, I never even considered that Jaqen and Syrio could be one in the same. That makes for interesting reading. Good catch whoever came up with that theory. Ummm, Has anyone already considered that Varys could be a Faceless Man? That might just open up a new can of worms. ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 13th 3:05 PM I suppose it's not impossible, but if he were you'd think he'd have used the ability to make a very complete disguise for himself when Arya spied him talking with Ilyrio. Unless, of course, there are restrictions on the way the Faceless Men do things (which is a speculation of mine, i.e. that once they abandon a face they can never resume it again and, perhaps, they can only change faces on the completion of some oathed goal/contract.)
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 13th 5:56 PM The arguments supporting JH also being Syrio are that we did not actually see Syrio die at the hands of Mandon Moore or the Gold Cloaks, and that he knew Arya's true identity. This is very thin circumstantial evidence at best. As Arya flees the room, Syrio is facing a member of the Kingsguard and a number of guardsmen. Syrio has cracked a few guardsmen skulls with a practice sword, and is facing Moore. From everything we have seen about Ser Mandon Moore's character, what would lead us to believe he would spare Syrio? Even if he was knocked unconscious, Moore would open Syrio's throat and be happy to have it done. The Lannister were killing anyone associated with the Starks and the "dancing master" would not be spared. Let's say that JH is Syrio and was captured. How would Syrio have gotten selected by Yoren? Ned gave Yoren pick of the dungeon and IIRC Yoren was on his way out of KL when Ned was axed. As for him knowing Arya's true identity, he probably overheard Arya and the Bull talking. How? JH probably followed Arya after she saved him from the fire. He owed her three lives and was looking out for. This would explain his knowing who she was and where after she was captured. AS JH always says, "A man hears, a man knows". This is more probable, but just as thin as the theory that JH is Syrio.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 13th 6:21 PM I think the theory would run that a Faceless Man who is knocked into unconsciousness takes on his "true" form -- the face of the person he actually is. Hence, you get Jaqen H'ghar, a Lorathi. I think all the rest is covered elsewhere. Jaqen gets his freedom by someone (Varys? Cersei? Littlefinger?) offering to engineer it and in return getting to pick someone to assassinate (I'm guessing Robb, mostly because I'm betting on Arya meeting up with her family again, only for chaos to break loose as Robb is killed and maybe some other treachery happens and Arya being spirited away by Jaqen not realizing he's her brother's murderer.) Who exactly did it, who knows. But it's hard to imagine a Faceless Man being imprisoned in the deepest cells just because. The only ways he could have gotten there: framed or caught. The only way he could have been caught were if his cover were blown. Now, framed... this leads to a separate line. Jaqen was not Syrio. He was, however, the man who poisoned Jon Arryn (there's problems with this -- further down.) Hired by Varys, one would suppose, though one never knows about Cersei or Lysa with Littlefinger's help (I'm just throwing out names to show how impossible it is to come up with a satisfactory explaination of Jaqen.) After doing the deed, his employeer decided to double-cross him and stick him in prison for future use (which means someone incredibly dumb, incredibly ambitious, incredibly arrogant, or incredibly self-assured -- Lysa, Littlefinger, Cersei, and Varys) The main problem with someone spending the coin necessary to kill Jon Arryn using a Faceless Man is ... well, why? Why bother? The man didn't have his food tasted beforehand or anything like. Anyone could have dropped a droplet of the tears of Lys into food or drink and he'd be dead. So, you've got some benefit for Ser Hugh doing it, leaving plenty of room for deciding that Jaqen must have had his cover blown (knocked out, somehow identified [Varys would be the likely culprit there], whatever.) In any case, my personal theory in a (big) nutshell: Jaqen may or may not have been Syrio. He was in King's Landing to scope out the scene before going after his target -- Melisandre of Asshai. His employers would be the Red Priesthood, I think, or perhaps some powerful person/group in Asshai. The reasons could be: 1) She's a heretic by the standards of the priesthood. 2) She's a zealot who stole Lightbringer from wherever it was kept and/or . . . 3) She's a shadowbinder who should not be meddling in what she's meddling. Or something else, along those lines. Anyhow, somehow he gets caught (knocked out as Syrio, spotted and captured as himself, etc.), whoever (Varys seems likeliest, though Cersei and Littlefinger have to be counted as well) lets him go free so long as he promises to kill someone . Robb, probably. He gets taken northwards, will make his escape at some point (loooong trip from KL to the Wall, given the wagons), then find Robb and off him before going on his way to finishing the Melisandre job. Or something. I expect he'll kill Robb and spirit Arya away in the chaos (no doubt there'll be some other treachery which she needs rescuing from) with her never knowing until many years later that he killed her brother. Nice angst-filled situation there. "My savior, mentor, and friend murdered my brother!"
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 14th 7:04 AM The problem I see with him being planted in the dungeons is the cover story the gave him. He did something sufficiently evil enough to make Yoren, if not scared, very weary of him. Weary enough to keep him in chains for a trip that is thousands of miles long. Why would they tell Yoren he murdered/raped, instead of he is a thief or con man? Jon Arryn was murdered by Maester what's his face in KL. Tyrion made him admit it, when Shagga was going to feed his manhood to the goats. So it had to be someone other than Jon Arryn. I believe he had to have completed his job because he was on his way out of Westeros after killing those people for Arya, otherwise he would have stayed to complete his task. Robb could not be the target because Yoren had pick of the dungeon and left KL BEFORE Robb rebelled in the North. Robb did not hear of Ned's execution for weeks.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 14th 7:38 AM Actually, the Grand Maester admitted to making sure he died -- he didn't give the poison himself. He knew what it was, could have taken measures to save Jon, but he didn't. He indicated that it must have been Ser Hugh who delivered the poison, but we don't know why he's so certain. I don't believe there was a suggestion that he was leaving directly across the sea. He offered to take Arya with him, but he didn't couch terms in time frame. He just left, noting that he had obligations to meet (like a promise give in a certain dungeon cell deep under the Red Keep . . .?) And Ned was a prisoner for more than a week. If Yoren got his pick somewhere around then, it's entirely possible that whoever decided such matters worked the deal with Jaqen. Varys and Littlefinger, for example, saw the writing on the wall from the time of Robert's death. Of course, I'm uncertain why Varys would be so interested in seeing Robb dead now rather than later. That's a problem. But it's certainly a major problem for Jaqen to be in the deepest cells, an unheralded Faceless Man who has apparently killed no one (or killed Jon Arryn for someone who decided to make sure the job went right rather than saving himself a few tens of thousands of gold dragons) but is allowed to go off to the Wall. Anyone have any ideas on how else to explain the matter? Faceless Men aren't hired casually. If he killed someone, we would probably have heard of it. The only major death was Jon Arryn, and it's very debatable that Jaqen had anything to do with it. Which is why I prefer the idea that he's after Melisandre and was scoping out the scene in KL when, somehow, he was caught.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 14th 10:10 AM Well, I cannot say exactly what kind of business Jaqen was on. For all I know, it might not have been a Faceless man 'assignment' at all. I mean, even if you're able to change your face at will, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can blend in easily into a foreign culture with strange habits, language, accents, etc. Perhaps Jaqen was doing some field research in between assignments, in order to learn more about Westeros in general, now in disguise as a Lorathi. It doesn't explain how he ended up in the dungeons, of course... As an aside, I think we can be almost completely sure that it in fact was Ser Hugh who was behind the actual poisoning. It was confirmed by two different sources - Varys told Eddard, and Pycelle told Tyrion. (I doubt Varys would have told Pycelle - the Grand Maester very clearly is not friendly disposed to the Spider.)
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 14th 11:08 AM I don't know if I'd put it as "almost completely sure." Anything Varys says can be seen as suspect if it serves his own ends. If he wanted Eddard to be more careful and more suspicious of the Lannisters, using Hugh (who "tragically" met his death) to scare him would work. Pycelle, on the other hand, only says that Varys and Cersei would confirm that it was Hugh, that he "must" have done it. We don't know his reasoning. If Varys hired a Faceless Man to handle Jon Arryn, Hugh would be the natural "fallguy" so to speak. Not that I buy that anyone would waste a Faceless Man's talents on a simple poisoning. I do figure that Hugh was the one who did it. But I'd be careful of how certain one should be about it.
Kevin User ID: 0053014	Jan 14th 7:41 PM Evidence for Hugh doing it: He was the ONLY one killed at the tourney. He was killed by Gregor who is beholden to the Lanister's. Coincidence?
Relic User ID: 9308123	Jan 14th 7:55 PM If Syrio and Jaqen are one and the same then we know how Jaqen ended up in prison. Nothing is really mentioned about Syrio when we last see him, facing off against a fully armored knight, but being so skilled with a blade would warrent a deep dark danky cell , and shakles all the way up to the wall. Obviously thought, we dont know if they are the same person.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 14th 7:59 PM Lets see. The match was single-elimination, random draw to figure out who went against who. Ser Hugh managed to draw his first match against someone he could beat. Coincidence. That match also happened to be in the opposite position from Gregor's in the tree, so that Hugh's second match would be against the winner's second match. Coincidence. Hugh's gorget was put on improperly, leaving his neck open to a precise lance blow. Coincidence. Gregor, Hugh's second round opponent, happens to be a psycho who likes to kill people and also happens to be able to hit just about any target he cares to. Coincidence. Yeah, I think it could be coincidence. ;) There's no way that Gregor could have killed Hugh if the gorget was put on right. He could have seriously hurt him, maybe, but not kill him. So right there is the big chance that would have made rigging everything (which one would have to assume, one supposes) pointless. If he was eliminated but not killed, they'd have to hope he took part in the melee to try to kill him. And even then there'd be a chance that they'd fail. You know, it seems to me they would have had an easier time of it if they just had someone stab him in his tent or on a street or something. Why wait until the tourney to kill him? Anyhow, it could easily be coincidence. I'm not saying it definently is, but it definently could be. Then it'd be a red herring to distract us, is all.
Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Jan 15th 1:39 AM Perhaps Styrio beat off his opponents, fled, and changed his disguise. He was still trying to escape the Red Keep, and was attacked by Red Cloaks again, but this time in his real appearance (probably looked raggedy). Beat more off, but was overwhelmed by numbers, capured, and put into the Black Hole of Calcutta. I liked Styrio, and wouldn't be surprised if he popped up next to Arya, and said that he'd escaped and followed her trail because he was still nominally under Stark employment. Perhaps he's an honorable murderer (oxymoron), and wants to see his charge safely back to her family. and they all lived happily ever after. sob sob I think I'm going to cry. ab
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 15th 9:39 AM Ran; Are you suggesting that Varys told Pycelle? If so, that'd bottom out my argument pretty fast, since Pycelle wouldn't be an 'independent' source longer.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 15th 11:51 AM Well, Pycelle does hold Varys up as one of the persons who could confirm it was Hugh. I don't think I should speculate on why, but he certainly must have some reason to think Varys would know -- either because Varys's reputation, or Varys did tell him, or something. One hint may be the fact that, in GoT, Pycelle looks closely at Varys just after Varys mentions the tears of Lys in connection with an attempt on Dany's life. This has always suggested to me a certain suspicion. Maybe he figures Varys got Hugh to do it at Cersei's request? Or maybe Varys is just smugly gloating over the fact that he can drop a hint about the tears of Lys to Pycelle's discomfiture? I don't know. But I do find it interesting. Like I've always said, I've always thought this whole mess surrounding the assassination was the murkiest and most complex of the mysteries presented to us.