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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Westero's Greatest Knight

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Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 20th 10:52 AM
This does not seem to have been a topic, but is probably in some thread. Who is the greastest knight in all of Westeros?

I was thinking about this and, at first, it seemed simple. It has to be the Knight of Flowers, The Mountain, or the Kingslayer. I concluded Loras Tyrell was probably the greatest knight in Westeros since he defeated the Mountain in the Hand's Tourney.

Then I remebered that GRRM is trying to set someone else up for this honor....Brienne.

This is going to be very sexist, but there is no way in hell even some pseudo-amazon could pull that off. She won a 100 man melee,wearing full suit of plate, and not a single man could defeat her!?!? Give me a break. This bothers me more than anything else in GRRM's story. I could handle and believe that she is a warrior in the mold of Asha, but not that she is as strong and fast and more skilled than the greatest knights of the age.

I think Brienne is the worst written character and creation in this series, but it is fantasy...so I guess anything can/will happen. I am apologizing in advance for any one this offends.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 11:10 AM
Well, the problem is, we're talking a giant melee. It's not her against a hundred men. She probably knocked, all together, eight or nine men from their horses. And she defeated the Knight of Flowers who hadn't quite expected that she's willing to do the unusual.

I don't think it's particular bothersome, and I happen to know something about medieval arms, armor, and fighting. She's very tall and strong (pituitary gigantism, I think, or maybe some thyroid issues given the deformity of her face), and she's _female_. The first men who attacked her no doubt underestimated her.

Another factor for being a woman ... men are much less likely, at least in the outset, to double-team her. What does that say about their honor, that they need help to defeat her? Of course, towards the end, yes, we do see her being double-teamed -- but those are the best and the brightest, and they know what needs to be done to win. It doesn't work, but there it is.

Her gender was her greatest single advantage. It made knights hesitant or foolish, until the end, and then she more or less lucked out. Notice that, if it were real weapons, Loras would have killed her -- she never layed a hit on him with her mace as he was quite good with his shield, but he kept knocking her about with his blunted long axe.

So, I don't buy that she's more skilled than Ser Loras, Ser Jaime, or the Hound, etc. Her physical advantages (and the psychological advances that they impose) are what gave her the edge in the melee. I don't think she would have gotten past the final dozen if she Ser Brian or somesuch, rather than Brienne the Beauty. She would have been treated much rougher and been fought against more smartly.

I also think she's also an extremely _interesting_ character. I'll hazard, with apologies, that your issues with her size and strength and skill colors your opinion about the way she's characterized. She's perfectly fine as a character.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 20th 11:19 AM
I really do not see where her character can go or what she will add to the story.

How many knights and men-at-arms did she kill in Renly's tent? I know she killed one of the Rainbow Guard, and injured another fighting them at the same time. These two knew how "dangerous" she was, but still could get past her guard to even wound her. Next thing we know she will beat the crap out of a god, aka Xena. (I can't believe I put that in there since I have Xena maybe twice.)

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 11:24 AM
Oh, I didn't answer the question of greatest knight. Well, first, I've my doubts of Brienne ever being knighted, so I'll leave her off the list.

Ser Loras's defeat of the Kingslayer always struck me as rather more telling than his defeat of the Mountain. I don't really think Loras would have been able to defeat the Mountain if the match had been entirely fair, but ... who knows. He's certainly smart.

But defeating Jaime, that's quite interesting. I actually doubt Jaime's claim that he underestimated Loras, after Loras had fought his way to the final and no doubt defeated quite a few noteworthies. Indeed, he defeated three of the Kingsguard (not Barristan or Jaime, clearly) in his first three matches. I'm curious if one was Mandon Moore -- he seemed quite skilled, and even Jaime held him in high regard.

Then again, this is just jousting. On the other hand, as my previous post, if it were a _real_ battle, he would have killed Brienne. He's very, very good.

So, he's definently in the top five. I think I'd have to give the Kingslayer the edge, however, for experience. They're probably quite similar in skills -- maybe Loras even has an edge in the lance. And at the top ... mrm... Well, both Jaime and Loras are smart. I think I'd go with Gregor Clegane possibly being at the top. He's just too bloody big and powerful. Loras would be at a definite disadvantage, Jaime less so, but still.

But I expect the Hound will do for Gregor, eventually. Others ... well, how about Bronn? He's quite good (Tyrion even claimed he's as good as Jaime, though I have my doubts), and he's been knighted no doubt after the Blackwater (among the six hundred others who were.) And then you've got Barristan, who's getting a bit old, but he's still quite fine.

A lot of people are expecting Ser Garlan the Gallant (elder brother of Loras) to be extremely good, though I wouldn't know about that. We know he's not a gloryhound, so we can't measure his reputation through tournaments.

On the other hand, Martin tells us that the martial accomplishments and deeds rattled off at the end of CoK (when the Tyrells come into the throne room after the great victory) includes both deeds on the Blackwater and past merits, so one imagines that Garlan has managed something at least.

I'm skeptical of him being a better knight than Loras or Jaime or even Barristan, but the possibility remains I guess. Also that epithet, the Gallant, might be telling -- you rarely get one unless you're a knight of some merit, but then again, he might just be extremely gallant.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 20th 11:30 AM
I would have to agree that Garlan is probably very good. Who would Loras have been competing/training with, if not is older brother?

As far as Bronn, how would he fare if you put him in plate mail? Probably not so well. I would suggest he may be the best swordsman we have seen thus far.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 20th 11:34 AM
BTW, I understand this is your board. I like it very much, it is well maintained and easy to use.
Why doesn't it link to the "So Spake Martin" site? Isn't that yours as well?

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 20th 11:34 AM
Rhoe;

Brienne killed none of the Rainbow Guard, and actually fought only one - Emmon Cuy.
However, she killed two men-at-arms while fighting all three of them together, with Cuy in armor, and Brienne without it.

Had Catelyn not interfered, it is rather likely that Brienne would have been killed by Cuy.

Cuy and Royce were later slain by Loras.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 20th 11:38 AM
As for greatest knight...I suppose I have to ask for circumstances again - what weapons are to be used; mounted or afoot, etc.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 11:38 AM
She didn't kill any of the Rainbow Guard, actually. Ser Emmon Cuy (the Yellow) stumbled over Renly's body and that gave Brienne the opportunity to break the axe he had been using. Then a man-at-arms tried to use a torch, thrusting it at her back, but her cloak was soaked with blood .. . and he lost the hand, the idiot.

The most she did was hold off Emmon Cuy and a man-at-arms, all fighting with swords, but these are rather cramped confines and she _did_ retreat before them (meaning she's not got much of an edge against one good-to-quite-good Rainbow Guard and one anonymous man-at-arms.)

She finally did manage to kill the man-at-arms, of course, but then Ser Emmon definently had the upper hand (he was pressing her hard) and it took Catelyn and poor Ser Robar to save her.

So, she hacked off the hand of a stupid man-at-arms, killed an anonymous no-body, and barely managed to escape a Rainbow Guard of uncertain skill (one can presume he was good -- but how good is a question. Not all of the Kingsguard are anywhere near the level of Jaime, and maybe only one besides Jaime (Mandon Moore) was equal to Barristan.)

Anyhow, no, wasn't too impressed. Your estimation of Bronn is quite good, of course -- he'll never be any good with a lance, I imagine, so it's the sword that matters most with him.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 11:41 AM
Dropping that Bronn suggestion (msotly just tossing out names), I'd say best knight would be based on all-around ability. A guy who's the best in the sword but stinks at everything else is worse than the guy who's only second best in everything.

So, the most versatile knights would be Jaime (masterful swordsman and a champion jouster), Loras (champion jouster and apparently quite good in the melee, though one admits we've no idea of his swordsmanship -- I expect quite good), Barristan (former champion jouster, formerly the best swordsman in Westeros), Gregor (may not be especially _skillful_ with the sword, but he's quite powerful and has reach -- though a smart opponent can negate it -- and of course he's a great jouster.)

Of course, only Loras or Barristan would be on _my_ Kingsguard. I wouldn't trust Jaime or Gregor as far as I could throw them.

Omer
User ID: 9551723 Jan 20th 11:52 AM
Yeah, I seem to agree with what you falks said about Brienne and Bronn. I like both, btw.

I have three top knights:
(The Hound does't count, cause he's no knight)

1. The Mountain that Rides - He's simply huge. And he maintained his position in a fight against his brother after falling off a horse.

2. The Kingslayer - Jaime's a magnificent fighter by all accounts, and has more experience than

3. The Knight of the Flower - Loras won against Jaime, true enough, but I somehow doubt he'll be able to do it again.
2. Kingslayer -

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 20th 12:16 PM
Well, there's Balon Swann...he was said to be good with a lance, better with a mace, and expert with the bow. (Tyrion's assessment)

I don't know how 'knightly' the bow and the mace is considered, though...

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 20th 12:31 PM
What about Dondarrion? Where doe she stack up?

I don't think you have to be a capable swordsman as long as you make up for it with axe or mace. They all make you dead, and I am sure there is completely different techniques.

Anon
User ID: 2205324 Jan 20th 12:59 PM
Also Addam Marbrand, Jorah Mormont and Strongboar.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 20th 2:37 PM
Jorah Mormont is not a great Tourney Knight. He has admitted as much. He was successful in a Tourney once, but that was all.

Probably is better in battle. He did take on a few Dothraki and did ok.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 2:43 PM
Balon Swann isn't bad at all. Quite good. I don't think he's anything like top 10, but maybe top 25.

Dondarrion's a question -- the girls seemed to consider him a champion-type of guy, but that's more because he wsa handsome and dashing. On the other hand, all these successful raids and ambushes show a keen mind for such things and don't specifically speak on skill. I imagine he's above average, but how much so I couldn't say.

Addam Marbrand is certainly said to be quite good, but how much is hyperbole ... I'd call him above average and leave it an open question. Strongboar's more known for his strength and all, I imagine, and I don't expect him to be exceptional.

As to Jorah, I've always considered him at best above average. Armor is what saved him from being killed. He was entirely outmatched by Drogo's bloodrider. He was nothing special with the lance, save that one time.

Other forgotten knights of some skill: Bronze Yohn Royce (a tourneyer of some repute), Lord Jason Mallister (killed several of Rhaegar's bannermen on the Trident), Ser Lyn Corbray (claimed he was the best swordsman present in the Vale, though he may or may not have been counting Vardis Egen, and of course he might be exaggerating), Red Ronnet Connington (one of the final 20 contestants in the great melee at Bitterbridge).

All of them are probably in the above-average to the quite good range, but I'm not sure where they'd place. Bronze Yohn might make top 20 status, and maybe Red Ronnet, but Mallister and Corbray are hard to judge.

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Jan 20th 3:09 PM
The Old Kingsguard was pretty good, beyond great. I'm not certain of how skilled or versatile Oswell Whent, Jonothor Darry, Gerold Hightower, and Prince Lewyn of Dorne were. BUT I do know that Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, and Jaime Lannister can be called great.

How about Rhaegar Targaryen? Dead but he won that huge tournament. Brandon Stark?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 3:30 PM
Well, if we're talking dead men, the Sword of the Morning was the greatest knight alive at the time of Robert's War. Catelyn herself called him the deadliest of the Kingsguard. I'm pretty sure the White Bull, Gerold Hightower, was a great one -- though going old, as Barristan is now.

And Barristan certainly was pretty bloody good, but Dayne was better. Can't forget Prince Lewyn -- Barristan mentions him with the White Bull and the Sword of the Morning as men he highly respected and was proud to serve with, so one suspects that he was pretty good too.

Darry and Whent were probably well above average, but I don't know if they were in the Barristan/Jaime/Arthur category or even the same level as the White Bull.

Rhaegar ... tough to say. I think he was exceptional. Was he better than Ser Arthur? I have my doubts, but he must have been relatively close. One wonders how much he was inspired (ala Ser Jorah at Lannisport) by Lyanna.

Other great, dead knights: Robert was almost certainly knighted (then again, as a man who became lord while still in his minority(?), I guess it's possible that he wasn't.) He was probably not much of a jouster, but certainly a fearsome melee knight.

Then you've got a host of very good (and some great) knights in the "The Hedge Knight". The most notable was Prince Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen, who was exceedingly exceptional. There were others though -- his brother Maekar was great, in his own right, there were one or three great Kingsguard in the story, there was the Laughing Storm, the Brute of Bracken, the Grey Lion, Leo Longthorn ...

Actually, the Ashford Tourney seemed to have attracted a _lot_ of very good-to-great competitors. I was about to list pretty much every knight listed in the story, and realized that the list one compiled outmatched the list that we could put together from the two books.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 20th 3:32 PM
Oh, and can't forget the one that keeps getting mentioned and, for some reason, has taken up the mystique as being the greatest of all knights: Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Jan 21st 1:14 AM
I'm surprised how many people mention Gregor Clegane over Sandor Clegane, the Hound. When Gregor was fighting Sandor at the tournament (look back and read it) Martin says that Sandor was completely on the defensive and never struck Gregor's unarmoured head. This implies that Sandor was being "gentle" with his older brother, he could have easily gone in for the kill but chose not to. I think this would be a good indication of Sandor's skill with a sword. But I guess Sandor has more than once stated that he is no knight. So I guess he doesn't count.
It could be that Martin is waiting to show the greatest fighter in the land. Rather like Darth Maul at the end of Phantom Menace. Even in that movie you have to keep in mind that Obi-Wan Kenobi killed Darth Maul, but most would agree that Maul was a better trained warrior. Martin has shown a couple of examples where a great knight was defeated in one battle only to succeed against the same people in the next. Thoros of Myr for example, won the Hand's Tourney melee. But as was mentioned in A Clash of Kings he was defeated in an earlier melee by Bronze Royce. There is always the question of man or woman's element. If you threw Loras Tyrell or Jaime Lannister on board a rocking ship they would probably both be killed by Davos Seaworth. He's a man who knows the movement of a ship and can sway and duck as Loras or Jaime wouldn't be experienced at. But I'm rambling.
Let's look at the candidates. Stark said that Barristan the Bold was once THE finest swordsman in the realm. But he was talking past tense, and I'm assuming Stark knows of these things. Syrio was one of the top swords in Braavos for a while, but he's dead so let's move on. Bronn (Tyrion's man) and Lothor Brune (Littlefinger's man) are both outstanding warriors. But when Tyrion saw Bronn fight in A Game of Thrones he said that he was ALMOST as good as Jaime. I'm assuming that Martin is going to make the same for Brune. Halfhand was also supposed to be quite fearful, but again . . . dead. I guess that leaves us with Jaime, Loras, Brienne and Sandor. I think Jaime was making excuses why he lost to Loras. And the way that Martin speaks about him suggests that Loras is going to be the next Kingslayer (look out Joffrey he's your new white cloak). The newer, meaner generation. Brienne just strikes me as being too naive or whatever. Perhaps I'm being held back in my praise because she seems to be such a pitiful creature. Sandor has my vote for best warrior and not knight. He has the brutality and the skill, and provided you don't wave a torch in front of his face, you're guaranteed to die if you fight him. Whew, that was a long one.

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Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 20th 10:52 AM This does not seem to have been a topic, but is probably in some thread. Who is the greastest knight in all of Westeros? I was thinking about this and, at first, it seemed simple. It has to be the Knight of Flowers, The Mountain, or the Kingslayer. I concluded Loras Tyrell was probably the greatest knight in Westeros since he defeated the Mountain in the Hand's Tourney. Then I remebered that GRRM is trying to set someone else up for this honor....Brienne. This is going to be very sexist, but there is no way in hell even some pseudo-amazon could pull that off. She won a 100 man melee,wearing full suit of plate, and not a single man could defeat her!?!? Give me a break. This bothers me more than anything else in GRRM's story. I could handle and believe that she is a warrior in the mold of Asha, but not that she is as strong and fast and more skilled than the greatest knights of the age. I think Brienne is the worst written character and creation in this series, but it is fantasy...so I guess anything can/will happen. I am apologizing in advance for any one this offends.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 11:10 AM Well, the problem is, we're talking a giant melee. It's not her against a hundred men. She probably knocked, all together, eight or nine men from their horses. And she defeated the Knight of Flowers who hadn't quite expected that she's willing to do the unusual. I don't think it's particular bothersome, and I happen to know something about medieval arms, armor, and fighting. She's very tall and strong (pituitary gigantism, I think, or maybe some thyroid issues given the deformity of her face), and she's _female_. The first men who attacked her no doubt underestimated her. Another factor for being a woman ... men are much less likely, at least in the outset, to double-team her. What does that say about their honor, that they need help to defeat her? Of course, towards the end, yes, we do see her being double-teamed -- but those are the best and the brightest, and they know what needs to be done to win. It doesn't work, but there it is. Her gender was her greatest single advantage. It made knights hesitant or foolish, until the end, and then she more or less lucked out. Notice that, if it were real weapons, Loras would have killed her -- she never layed a hit on him with her mace as he was quite good with his shield, but he kept knocking her about with his blunted long axe. So, I don't buy that she's more skilled than Ser Loras, Ser Jaime, or the Hound, etc. Her physical advantages (and the psychological advances that they impose) are what gave her the edge in the melee. I don't think she would have gotten past the final dozen if she Ser Brian or somesuch, rather than Brienne the Beauty. She would have been treated much rougher and been fought against more smartly. I also think she's also an extremely _interesting_ character. I'll hazard, with apologies, that your issues with her size and strength and skill colors your opinion about the way she's characterized. She's perfectly fine as a character.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 20th 11:19 AM I really do not see where her character can go or what she will add to the story. How many knights and men-at-arms did she kill in Renly's tent? I know she killed one of the Rainbow Guard, and injured another fighting them at the same time. These two knew how "dangerous" she was, but still could get past her guard to even wound her. Next thing we know she will beat the crap out of a god, aka Xena. (I can't believe I put that in there since I have Xena maybe twice.)
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 11:24 AM Oh, I didn't answer the question of greatest knight. Well, first, I've my doubts of Brienne ever being knighted, so I'll leave her off the list. Ser Loras's defeat of the Kingslayer always struck me as rather more telling than his defeat of the Mountain. I don't really think Loras would have been able to defeat the Mountain if the match had been entirely fair, but ... who knows. He's certainly smart. But defeating Jaime, that's quite interesting. I actually doubt Jaime's claim that he underestimated Loras, after Loras had fought his way to the final and no doubt defeated quite a few noteworthies. Indeed, he defeated three of the Kingsguard (not Barristan or Jaime, clearly) in his first three matches. I'm curious if one was Mandon Moore -- he seemed quite skilled, and even Jaime held him in high regard. Then again, this is just jousting. On the other hand, as my previous post, if it were a _real_ battle, he would have killed Brienne. He's very, very good. So, he's definently in the top five. I think I'd have to give the Kingslayer the edge, however, for experience. They're probably quite similar in skills -- maybe Loras even has an edge in the lance. And at the top ... mrm... Well, both Jaime and Loras are smart. I think I'd go with Gregor Clegane possibly being at the top. He's just too bloody big and powerful. Loras would be at a definite disadvantage, Jaime less so, but still. But I expect the Hound will do for Gregor, eventually. Others ... well, how about Bronn? He's quite good (Tyrion even claimed he's as good as Jaime, though I have my doubts), and he's been knighted no doubt after the Blackwater (among the six hundred others who were.) And then you've got Barristan, who's getting a bit old, but he's still quite fine. A lot of people are expecting Ser Garlan the Gallant (elder brother of Loras) to be extremely good, though I wouldn't know about that. We know he's not a gloryhound, so we can't measure his reputation through tournaments. On the other hand, Martin tells us that the martial accomplishments and deeds rattled off at the end of CoK (when the Tyrells come into the throne room after the great victory) includes both deeds on the Blackwater and past merits, so one imagines that Garlan has managed something at least. I'm skeptical of him being a better knight than Loras or Jaime or even Barristan, but the possibility remains I guess. Also that epithet, the Gallant, might be telling -- you rarely get one unless you're a knight of some merit, but then again, he might just be extremely gallant.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 20th 11:30 AM I would have to agree that Garlan is probably very good. Who would Loras have been competing/training with, if not is older brother? As far as Bronn, how would he fare if you put him in plate mail? Probably not so well. I would suggest he may be the best swordsman we have seen thus far.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 20th 11:34 AM BTW, I understand this is your board. I like it very much, it is well maintained and easy to use. Why doesn't it link to the "So Spake Martin" site? Isn't that yours as well?
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 20th 11:34 AM Rhoe; Brienne killed none of the Rainbow Guard, and actually fought only one - Emmon Cuy. However, she killed two men-at-arms while fighting all three of them together, with Cuy in armor, and Brienne without it. Had Catelyn not interfered, it is rather likely that Brienne would have been killed by Cuy. Cuy and Royce were later slain by Loras.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 20th 11:38 AM As for greatest knight...I suppose I have to ask for circumstances again - what weapons are to be used; mounted or afoot, etc.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 11:38 AM She didn't kill any of the Rainbow Guard, actually. Ser Emmon Cuy (the Yellow) stumbled over Renly's body and that gave Brienne the opportunity to break the axe he had been using. Then a man-at-arms tried to use a torch, thrusting it at her back, but her cloak was soaked with blood .. . and he lost the hand, the idiot. The most she did was hold off Emmon Cuy and a man-at-arms, all fighting with swords, but these are rather cramped confines and she _did_ retreat before them (meaning she's not got much of an edge against one good-to-quite-good Rainbow Guard and one anonymous man-at-arms.) She finally did manage to kill the man-at-arms, of course, but then Ser Emmon definently had the upper hand (he was pressing her hard) and it took Catelyn and poor Ser Robar to save her. So, she hacked off the hand of a stupid man-at-arms, killed an anonymous no-body, and barely managed to escape a Rainbow Guard of uncertain skill (one can presume he was good -- but how good is a question. Not all of the Kingsguard are anywhere near the level of Jaime, and maybe only one besides Jaime (Mandon Moore) was equal to Barristan.) Anyhow, no, wasn't too impressed. Your estimation of Bronn is quite good, of course -- he'll never be any good with a lance, I imagine, so it's the sword that matters most with him.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 11:41 AM Dropping that Bronn suggestion (msotly just tossing out names), I'd say best knight would be based on all-around ability. A guy who's the best in the sword but stinks at everything else is worse than the guy who's only second best in everything. So, the most versatile knights would be Jaime (masterful swordsman and a champion jouster), Loras (champion jouster and apparently quite good in the melee, though one admits we've no idea of his swordsmanship -- I expect quite good), Barristan (former champion jouster, formerly the best swordsman in Westeros), Gregor (may not be especially _skillful_ with the sword, but he's quite powerful and has reach -- though a smart opponent can negate it -- and of course he's a great jouster.) Of course, only Loras or Barristan would be on _my_ Kingsguard. I wouldn't trust Jaime or Gregor as far as I could throw them.
Omer User ID: 9551723	Jan 20th 11:52 AM Yeah, I seem to agree with what you falks said about Brienne and Bronn. I like both, btw. I have three top knights: (The Hound does't count, cause he's no knight) 1. The Mountain that Rides - He's simply huge. And he maintained his position in a fight against his brother after falling off a horse. 2. The Kingslayer - Jaime's a magnificent fighter by all accounts, and has more experience than 3. The Knight of the Flower - Loras won against Jaime, true enough, but I somehow doubt he'll be able to do it again. 2. Kingslayer -
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 20th 12:16 PM Well, there's Balon Swann...he was said to be good with a lance, better with a mace, and expert with the bow. (Tyrion's assessment) I don't know how 'knightly' the bow and the mace is considered, though...
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 20th 12:31 PM What about Dondarrion? Where doe she stack up? I don't think you have to be a capable swordsman as long as you make up for it with axe or mace. They all make you dead, and I am sure there is completely different techniques.
Anon User ID: 2205324	Jan 20th 12:59 PM Also Addam Marbrand, Jorah Mormont and Strongboar.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 20th 2:37 PM Jorah Mormont is not a great Tourney Knight. He has admitted as much. He was successful in a Tourney once, but that was all. Probably is better in battle. He did take on a few Dothraki and did ok.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 2:43 PM Balon Swann isn't bad at all. Quite good. I don't think he's anything like top 10, but maybe top 25. Dondarrion's a question -- the girls seemed to consider him a champion-type of guy, but that's more because he wsa handsome and dashing. On the other hand, all these successful raids and ambushes show a keen mind for such things and don't specifically speak on skill. I imagine he's above average, but how much so I couldn't say. Addam Marbrand is certainly said to be quite good, but how much is hyperbole ... I'd call him above average and leave it an open question. Strongboar's more known for his strength and all, I imagine, and I don't expect him to be exceptional. As to Jorah, I've always considered him at best above average. Armor is what saved him from being killed. He was entirely outmatched by Drogo's bloodrider. He was nothing special with the lance, save that one time. Other forgotten knights of some skill: Bronze Yohn Royce (a tourneyer of some repute), Lord Jason Mallister (killed several of Rhaegar's bannermen on the Trident), Ser Lyn Corbray (claimed he was the best swordsman present in the Vale, though he may or may not have been counting Vardis Egen, and of course he might be exaggerating), Red Ronnet Connington (one of the final 20 contestants in the great melee at Bitterbridge). All of them are probably in the above-average to the quite good range, but I'm not sure where they'd place. Bronze Yohn might make top 20 status, and maybe Red Ronnet, but Mallister and Corbray are hard to judge.
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Jan 20th 3:09 PM The Old Kingsguard was pretty good, beyond great. I'm not certain of how skilled or versatile Oswell Whent, Jonothor Darry, Gerold Hightower, and Prince Lewyn of Dorne were. BUT I do know that Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, and Jaime Lannister can be called great. How about Rhaegar Targaryen? Dead but he won that huge tournament. Brandon Stark?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 3:30 PM Well, if we're talking dead men, the Sword of the Morning was the greatest knight alive at the time of Robert's War. Catelyn herself called him the deadliest of the Kingsguard. I'm pretty sure the White Bull, Gerold Hightower, was a great one -- though going old, as Barristan is now. And Barristan certainly was pretty bloody good, but Dayne was better. Can't forget Prince Lewyn -- Barristan mentions him with the White Bull and the Sword of the Morning as men he highly respected and was proud to serve with, so one suspects that he was pretty good too. Darry and Whent were probably well above average, but I don't know if they were in the Barristan/Jaime/Arthur category or even the same level as the White Bull. Rhaegar ... tough to say. I think he was exceptional. Was he better than Ser Arthur? I have my doubts, but he must have been relatively close. One wonders how much he was inspired (ala Ser Jorah at Lannisport) by Lyanna. Other great, dead knights: Robert was almost certainly knighted (then again, as a man who became lord while still in his minority(?), I guess it's possible that he wasn't.) He was probably not much of a jouster, but certainly a fearsome melee knight. Then you've got a host of very good (and some great) knights in the "The Hedge Knight". The most notable was Prince Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen, who was exceedingly exceptional. There were others though -- his brother Maekar was great, in his own right, there were one or three great Kingsguard in the story, there was the Laughing Storm, the Brute of Bracken, the Grey Lion, Leo Longthorn ... Actually, the Ashford Tourney seemed to have attracted a _lot_ of very good-to-great competitors. I was about to list pretty much every knight listed in the story, and realized that the list one compiled outmatched the list that we could put together from the two books.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 20th 3:32 PM Oh, and can't forget the one that keeps getting mentioned and, for some reason, has taken up the mystique as being the greatest of all knights: Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Jan 21st 1:14 AM I'm surprised how many people mention Gregor Clegane over Sandor Clegane, the Hound. When Gregor was fighting Sandor at the tournament (look back and read it) Martin says that Sandor was completely on the defensive and never struck Gregor's unarmoured head. This implies that Sandor was being "gentle" with his older brother, he could have easily gone in for the kill but chose not to. I think this would be a good indication of Sandor's skill with a sword. But I guess Sandor has more than once stated that he is no knight. So I guess he doesn't count. It could be that Martin is waiting to show the greatest fighter in the land. Rather like Darth Maul at the end of Phantom Menace. Even in that movie you have to keep in mind that Obi-Wan Kenobi killed Darth Maul, but most would agree that Maul was a better trained warrior. Martin has shown a couple of examples where a great knight was defeated in one battle only to succeed against the same people in the next. Thoros of Myr for example, won the Hand's Tourney melee. But as was mentioned in A Clash of Kings he was defeated in an earlier melee by Bronze Royce. There is always the question of man or woman's element. If you threw Loras Tyrell or Jaime Lannister on board a rocking ship they would probably both be killed by Davos Seaworth. He's a man who knows the movement of a ship and can sway and duck as Loras or Jaime wouldn't be experienced at. But I'm rambling. Let's look at the candidates. Stark said that Barristan the Bold was once THE finest swordsman in the realm. But he was talking past tense, and I'm assuming Stark knows of these things. Syrio was one of the top swords in Braavos for a while, but he's dead so let's move on. Bronn (Tyrion's man) and Lothor Brune (Littlefinger's man) are both outstanding warriors. But when Tyrion saw Bronn fight in A Game of Thrones he said that he was ALMOST as good as Jaime. I'm assuming that Martin is going to make the same for Brune. Halfhand was also supposed to be quite fearful, but again . . . dead. I guess that leaves us with Jaime, Loras, Brienne and Sandor. I think Jaime was making excuses why he lost to Loras. And the way that Martin speaks about him suggests that Loras is going to be the next Kingslayer (look out Joffrey he's your new white cloak). The newer, meaner generation. Brienne just strikes me as being too naive or whatever. Perhaps I'm being held back in my praise because she seems to be such a pitiful creature. Sandor has my vote for best warrior and not knight. He has the brutality and the skill, and provided you don't wave a torch in front of his face, you're guaranteed to die if you fight him. Whew, that was a long one.