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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Sansa VIII

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Telisiane
User ID: 1516194 Jan 20th 10:54 PM
We were talking about Sansa, her responsibility for Eddard's death, her evolution as a person, blah blah blah ... :)

Telisiane
User ID: 1516194 Jan 20th 11:21 PM
Jeff -

By the beginning of AGOT, I believe that Catelyn had encouraged in Sansa a sense of confidence related to her place in the world as a daughter of Lord Stark. I think that this confidence related to her social status was mostly justified. You are right that Sansa's view was definitely skewed by her romantic nature, but she was in truth a viable candidate to marry Prince Joffrey, and she did become his betrothed.

After Eddard's death, Sansa's confidence swung dramatically in the other direction. She has no real idea of her true value to the Lannisters, and she definitely has value as a hostage; especially while the Starks have Jaime.

Zer0hour
User ID: 1432154 Jan 21st 0:53 AM
I must admit, I hated Sansa in AGoT, but in ACoK, when she finally came to her senses on what's going on, she really grew on me. I feel sorry for how Joffrey (that evil son of a [grumblegrumblegrumble]) had his soldiers beat the hell outta her. It's just not right! "But don't touch her face, I like her pretty." I hope that Sansa DOESN'T die like others do, and I hope she eventually beats the hell outta Joffrey, using her (or her brother's) soldiers. Hehehe...

One thing I don't get is how anyone sees Eddard's death HER fault. She pleed all she could to save her father's life, did she not? And that's all she really COULD do.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 21st 7:10 AM
Sansa told the Lannister that her father was leaving KL with her and all his men. She told time and place in a tempet tantrum because she wasn't going to be queen.

It is Sansa's fault that her father and every Stark man, woman, and child in KL died, and she doesn't get it!

Her naiveite(sp?) is appalling. She still treats Cersei like they are friends even though she finally woke up and doesn't want to marry Joffery.

Sansa has a loooooooooooooooong way to go before she is redeemed in my eyes.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 21st 7:44 AM
Read Martin's response to so much blame being put on Sansa on the So Spake Martin site. Ned's just as culpable as Sansa is.

Sansa's a little girl. She disobeyed her father, having been given no inkling of just how serious the situation was. What she said was part and parcel of a disaster that Ned set in motion. If he truly wanted it done as quietly and quickly as possible, he'd not have told his daughters until the hour before they were to leave.

She suffered from misguided affection more than anything. She's not even a maiden by the standards of Westeros at the time, so still a child. Are you going to blame a kid for accidentally pushing their father down a flight of stairs and to their subsequent stairs? That'd be a horrible thing to do.

Yes, what Sansa did is somewhat different from the example above ... but not all that much. The kid didn't realize what would happen. Neither did Sansa. Hell, NEd didn't have a clue of what could happen, or he wouldn't have told them. Can't blame Sansa for what even Ned couldn't foretell.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Jan 21st 8:55 AM
Ran, though I've been one to "blame" Sansa in the past, I agree with what you've said. My point has been that Sansa's actions may have contributed to Ned's death. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't -- there are points both ways.

I think she does deserve blame for being a spoiled brat. But, as I've said before, I don't think that she should have any moral guilt for her father's death -- that belongs to the Lannisters and whomever suggested to Joffrey that Ned be killed.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 21st 11:08 AM
I can agree with that, Jeff. Pretty much my take on things.

Rhoe
User ID: 8890073 Jan 21st 2:11 PM
Well Sansa agrees with you too, since she doesn't feel any guilt or culpability for those deaths.

In any story children are written as much more mature and intelligent than would be true in the real world. Obviously, this is done to make them interesting and their POV's readable. The Stark children are no different. Their maturity and intelligence levels are advanced for their chronological age.

To that end, I do not agree with your example of a child pushing her father down the stairs. That would be applicable to a child of Rickon's age. What Sansa did was more like a girl of 14 going to the teacher or police and telling them that her father abuses her in order to get back at him for a perceived slight. She is old enough to know what she did was wrong, but MAYBE not understand the consequences until after the deed is done. She should still feel guilt for that action.

Ned believed his children to be OBEDIENT enough to let them know ahead of time. Hind sight is 20/20, so of course we can all say he should have known better, but Sansa had ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS done exactly as she had been told in the past. Ned had no reason to believe she would start disobeying then.

Of course, if GRRM believes Ned is responsible for his own demise as you say, then that is the truth. I just don't agree.

Dirjj
User ID: 6960173 Jan 21st 2:12 PM
Child or no, the girl should have realized by now that she has a big part to play in the downfall of her family. When her wolf (Lady) died, she blamed Arya, instead of blaming herself for not telling the truth to her father. That should have been foreshadowing enough that she was going to be the cause of her family's downfall.

I really get sick and tired of people making excuses for things all the time. Not just this, but in the real world too. It's not this persons fault because of . .. it's not that persons fault because of . . . When we were all her age, we were kids legally until we turned 18, but we all thought we were grown up and knew it all. Well, in the Westeros culture, the grow up a lot faster. They're condidered adults (well they do adult things) at 14 or 15. Yes, Sansa is stupid, but you can't say she was too young to know any better. Plus, stupidity isn't an excuse.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 21st 2:29 PM
Well now, hold on Dirjj. I don't buy into the 'Sandor does bad things, but because he was horribly abused...' line. I don't buy into the 'Sansa made a mistake, but it doesn't count because she's younger' either.

On the other hand, blaming her for the entire deal, or even that she betrayed her father is going too far. Her disobeying him is a much, much different deal than her betraying him. She understood nothing of the situation, she was told nothing of the situation. What she thought was happening, pretty much, was that she wsa being unfairly punished for who-knows-what.

That's not stupidity. That's being a _girl_. Yes, 14-15 is a young woman -- but she wasn't 14-15. She was _11_. That's a big difference.

Actually, what it is is innocence, and innocence _is_ an excuse. She's no longer innocent, and I have a vague recollection of her knowing that she's part of the reason for her father's death, but she's not in a healthy environment where she can absolutely honest with herself. Indeed, as is constantly driven into us, she survives only by the most self-effacing of lies repeated every minute of every hour of every day -- she loves Joffrey, her father and Robb are traitors, etc.

When she gets out of King's Landing, it'll be the better for her. But she's a child who loved the wrong person (Joffrey), was too innocent to mistrust an even more wrong person (Cersei), and wasn't told any of the facts by one of her own loved ones (Ned.)

That's not stupidity. That's misfortune. That a 11-year-old thinks they know better than an adult doesn't matter -- time and time again, that's proved to be a mistake. We don't hang 11-year-olds for thinking it, however.

Zer0hour
User ID: 1432154 Jan 21st 6:17 PM
I don't buy this "Children are more mature in books". Although I do agree with Rhoe that many fantasy authors can't write children for squat, I believe GRRM knows that children can are immature and what not, and have seen it in many of his young characters. Remember he is writing a historical fantasy here...and in Medieval Times, children were thrust into a horrible life, and on the outside had to learn to tough it out, making them more mature appearing, but children are always soft and child-like on the inside. Sansa may have influenced Joffrey's decision, but the sole blame cannot be put onto her. I believe this to be a good parallel with the whole situation:

A little girl is told drugs are bad...don't do drugs...drug users are bad...
Anyway, her daddy is a loving caring father who is always there for her, but she is also led to believe that the police are always her friends and will always help her out and be on her side. But her daddy is a drug dealer and she finds out. So she tells the cops thinking they'll make him stop, slap him on the wrist and all will be fine. The daddy ends up in jail where a fellow inmate of his murders him. Is his death the little girls fault? Indirectly, yes. Should the little girl be condemned by society because of it?...

I see Sansa as the unknowing little girl. The Lannisters led her to be there friends--she trusted them. She thought that Ned, the one "guilty" of crimes, would just be sent to the Wall if she helped the Lannisters out. Now he's dead. Is his death Sansa's fault? Indirectly, yes. Should Sansa be conedemned (by all you, the READERS) for it...

My point is I'm tired of seeing Sansa getting ragged on by the near lot of you. Terrible things are happening to this poor girl (i.e: she's beaten almost daily by strong, gauntlet-clad soldiers) and most of you are saying how much you hate this little girl. I can see how you'd hate a girl if she's an evil b*tch her took a dagger and went on a killing spree, but c'mon! Yes, she's snobby and annoying and nothing like her sister that we love, but this little girl is still one of the good-guys. I've grown particularly attached to all these characters and think of them as real, and I could never wish death upon her or any of the POV's for that matter, unlike the rest of you...

Dirjj
User ID: 9175333 Jan 21st 9:30 PM
Well, I didn't mean she's 100% responsible. She is partially responsible, and she deserves what happening to her. I've yet to see her even consider that she's at fault. I saw an episode of GET REAL on Fox the other day. Great Show. Hmm, who's hotter, the mom or the daughter. Whoops, got off the track there. Well, in the show, the the 15 or 16, year old son is driving his pregnant mom to the doctor for an appt. Some care slams their breaks on in front of him, and he rear ends the car. It was just a fender bender. Well, later in the show, the mom goes to the doctor for a checkup, and finds out that the trauma from the accident may have caused her to miscarry. Real Sad. Well, the son took it real hard and blamed himself. Going so far to consider himself a murderer. It was an accident, and circumstanced led to the accident, not his negligence. Well, we've yet to see Sansa take such an approach. Sure circumstances led to her father's and his retinues death, but she played a part. We're argueing about how much fault she should take. Regardless of how much fault, we've yet to see her feel any guilt what so ever. Sure she get's beat on, but does she say, "I'm getting beat on because I betrayed my father's wishes", No, she whines all the time that it's not fair. Nothing is fair to this brat. Albeit she may be growing as a character and maturing. Until I see her accept a bit of responsibility, I'm not having any of her.

Besides. How stupid, naive, and sheltered could she have been. Her entire life the Starks and Lannisters have been near enemies. She should have known this. Everyone else in Winterfell seemed to know. Why on earth would she even consider trusting them? Arya never trusted them, and she was only 8. Hell, none of the Direwolves even trusted the Lannisters. "Hello Sansa (knocking on her head like a ripe melon), is there anyone in there?"

I'm sure if she were a peasant, she could hide behind a veil of stupidity, but as a noble, I'm sure that she was educated on history and current events. You can't say that her only lessons on current events regarded what noble's son she would marry. Give me a break.

ab

Zer0hour
User ID: 1432154 Jan 21st 10:11 PM
Sansa is at an age of rebellion. her father could have told her one thing but she had to find out for hersel if the Lannisters were bad. Plus, her father told her she was to marry the crowned prince and someday be queen. Like you said, Dirjj, she's nobility, but she is still a child! Raised in the ways of nobility, she associates the queen with superior regal. What little pretentious girl wouldn't want to be queen!?! I think she fell in love with the idea of becoming queen more-so than Joffrey. She saw that if she wanted to become queen, she had to stay friends with the current queen. SHe was selfish, yes...but I blame that on Catelyn and Septa Mordane. Just look at it: Sansa was raised to be proper and noble and such--she was raised to be "better" than commoners, which leads to want for power to stay above those commoners--she was raised to look pretty and present _herself_better than others. Arya, on the hand, rebeled against her mother and the Septa's teachings and look how cool she turned out. HELL, if your going to blame Sansa for Ned's death, than you must blame Catelyn and Septa Mordane.

Sansa has done everything asked of her. Her father told her she was going to be queen, so she got all excited and befriended the Cersei, who was nothing but kind to her before, and then her father tells her she can't be queen anymore. THAT'S LIKE TELLING YOUR TEENAGE CHILD TO GET STRAIGHT A's AND THEY DO AND YOU WAVE THE KEYS IN FRONT OF THEIR FACE AND THEN TAKE 'EM AWAY!!! Of course she's gonna try to stay queen. Cersei promised her father would live. She wouldn't have said a thing if Cersei said, "Tell me your father's plans so I can kill him." Sansa always had the best...and what's better to a noble lady than being queen?

Dirjj
User ID: 9175333 Jan 21st 11:35 PM
Yup. Like I said before, "It's not her fault because . . . ". When is this girl going to accept any responsibility? She doensn't take responsibility for anything. And here are move of you making excuses for her. It's the Septa's fault. It's her mom's fault. She saw two dogs stuck together when she was little. Blah blah blah.

Cersei wouldn't have had to be nice to her, and lie to her, if Sansa didn't go to her in the first place. Not matter what, I'm sure she learned not to trust Lannisters. Rebellion or not. If someone says don't put your hand in the fire, do you do it to rebel? If someone tells you that that the cup is filled with poison, do you rebel and drink it? No. You know better!

Throught AGOT Sansa thought of nothing but herself. She's a selfish brat. Most children grow out of that attitude by the time they're 7 or 8. What's her excuse? Is she retarded? Near the end of ACOK, she actually started caring for other's. There may be hope for her. But dammit, she's got to take some responsibilty for her circumstances.

People think that she and Sandor have a future. That she actually might care for the brute. Hell No. She's just facinated by him just like an idiot would be facninated by seeing a bird flying for the first time.

Am I too hard on her? Yes. Does she deserve it? Hell Yeah!!! Will she redeem herself? Probably.

ab

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 22nd 8:46 AM
That you agree that you're "too hard" suggests that she _doesn't_ deserve it, doesn't it, Dirjj?

I don't think there's much more left to say that your summary doesn't cover. :)

Zer0hour
User ID: 1432154 Jan 22nd 11:02 AM
I still don't see how you can be so hard Sansa! You blame her for Ned's death, and you hate her because she won't admit it. She is still a little girl and doesn't know to think that because she spilled a little information, it put Joffrey in a position to kill him. She was certain her father would live it out and go to the wall--she doesn't know how to see trickery in a situation yet. Cersei played on her naivete and ambitions. In Sansa's eyes, Joffrey killed her father because he gave the command.

You blame her for the same reasons I sympathize for her. How can you expect a twelve-year-old girl to take responsibility for her father's death. She's trying to keep sane here. I don't know what I'd do if I convinced myself I was responsible for my father's death...and I'm not even a little girl who loved and needed my father.

Zer0hour
User ID: 1432154 Jan 22nd 11:06 AM
Dirjj, one simple question...no tricks or traps...do you wish Sansa dead just as many people predict due to Lady's death?

Alex
User ID: 9704903 Jan 22nd 1:06 PM
I agree completely with people defending Sansa on this thread. Come on, she is 11 years old. She, by definition, is egotistical and self-centered, and not capable of a complete analysis of the situation. And Dirjj, she still referres to Cersei as a figure of authority, because in her surroundings there are no other points of reference. She will grow up, and, when her psyche is matured enough, she is in for some very nasty realizations, but not_while_she_is_12!!!!! And, I know, that most of you like Arya so much (me included), but, rationally thinking, I would be much more afraid of a 10 years old, who would rebel, disregards any rules, and will stick a pointy sharp object in your guts as an argument. Nowadays, she would belong to mental institution! Of course, she lives in Medieval times, but, unlike Sansa, who is just a spoiled and not overly bright child, but sill a normal child (and no, Dirjj, children do not outgrow that stage by the time they are 7, no way) where Arya is a violent murderer, however justified her actions may be.

BloodBomb
User ID: 0171704 Jan 22nd 1:38 PM
There is one person responsible for Ned's death: Joffrey. Face it, the kid is a snot-nosed punk. Ned's death did not benefit the Lannister's at all. Cersei even expected Ned to take the black. The end of this argument is that there is no point in blaming Sansa.
And what is this garbage about Arya being a violent murderer? You can't apply a 21st century viewpoint to this book. If Arya is a 'violent murderer', than what is Sir Gregor Clegane? I don't even recall Arya expressing pleasure in killing, even the pleasure Tyrion experienced outside of King's Landing.
I don't think Sansa will die. Not in King's Landing, anyway. Why? How about this theory: Catelyn did not kill Jaime Lannister. She gave him Brienne's sword and set him free. That way, she could get Sansa returned to her. Whattaya think?

Alex
User ID: 9704903 Jan 22nd 8:55 PM
To "garbage": 21st century viewpoint have to do with moral and ethical standards, not with child psychology, which, like human psychology in general did not change much. Arya is disobedient (if you need quotes to confirm that, I'll provide), Arya is willful, Arya is disproportionately violent, even for a medieval society, and Arya kills people (most children her age do not, 13th century or 21st). Her actions do not seem so strange, because she benefits from the contrast with Sansa, who while being much more "normal" child, took an unwitting part in her father's death, where Arya appears to be "blameless" and fighting for apparent good causes, like her freedom. However, from the child psychology perspective, she is a kid with serious mental problems.

Next 20 Messages Newest Messages

Telisiane User ID: 1516194	Jan 20th 10:54 PM We were talking about Sansa, her responsibility for Eddard's death, her evolution as a person, blah blah blah ... :)
Telisiane User ID: 1516194	Jan 20th 11:21 PM Jeff - By the beginning of AGOT, I believe that Catelyn had encouraged in Sansa a sense of confidence related to her place in the world as a daughter of Lord Stark. I think that this confidence related to her social status was mostly justified. You are right that Sansa's view was definitely skewed by her romantic nature, but she was in truth a viable candidate to marry Prince Joffrey, and she did become his betrothed. After Eddard's death, Sansa's confidence swung dramatically in the other direction. She has no real idea of her true value to the Lannisters, and she definitely has value as a hostage; especially while the Starks have Jaime.
Zer0hour User ID: 1432154	Jan 21st 0:53 AM I must admit, I hated Sansa in AGoT, but in ACoK, when she finally came to her senses on what's going on, she really grew on me. I feel sorry for how Joffrey (that evil son of a [grumblegrumblegrumble]) had his soldiers beat the hell outta her. It's just not right! "But don't touch her face, I like her pretty." I hope that Sansa DOESN'T die like others do, and I hope she eventually beats the hell outta Joffrey, using her (or her brother's) soldiers. Hehehe... One thing I don't get is how anyone sees Eddard's death HER fault. She pleed all she could to save her father's life, did she not? And that's all she really COULD do.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 21st 7:10 AM Sansa told the Lannister that her father was leaving KL with her and all his men. She told time and place in a tempet tantrum because she wasn't going to be queen. It is Sansa's fault that her father and every Stark man, woman, and child in KL died, and she doesn't get it! Her naiveite(sp?) is appalling. She still treats Cersei like they are friends even though she finally woke up and doesn't want to marry Joffery. Sansa has a loooooooooooooooong way to go before she is redeemed in my eyes.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 21st 7:44 AM Read Martin's response to so much blame being put on Sansa on the So Spake Martin site. Ned's just as culpable as Sansa is. Sansa's a little girl. She disobeyed her father, having been given no inkling of just how serious the situation was. What she said was part and parcel of a disaster that Ned set in motion. If he truly wanted it done as quietly and quickly as possible, he'd not have told his daughters until the hour before they were to leave. She suffered from misguided affection more than anything. She's not even a maiden by the standards of Westeros at the time, so still a child. Are you going to blame a kid for accidentally pushing their father down a flight of stairs and to their subsequent stairs? That'd be a horrible thing to do. Yes, what Sansa did is somewhat different from the example above ... but not all that much. The kid didn't realize what would happen. Neither did Sansa. Hell, NEd didn't have a clue of what could happen, or he wouldn't have told them. Can't blame Sansa for what even Ned couldn't foretell.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Jan 21st 8:55 AM Ran, though I've been one to "blame" Sansa in the past, I agree with what you've said. My point has been that Sansa's actions may have contributed to Ned's death. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't -- there are points both ways. I think she does deserve blame for being a spoiled brat. But, as I've said before, I don't think that she should have any moral guilt for her father's death -- that belongs to the Lannisters and whomever suggested to Joffrey that Ned be killed.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 21st 11:08 AM I can agree with that, Jeff. Pretty much my take on things.
Rhoe User ID: 8890073	Jan 21st 2:11 PM Well Sansa agrees with you too, since she doesn't feel any guilt or culpability for those deaths. In any story children are written as much more mature and intelligent than would be true in the real world. Obviously, this is done to make them interesting and their POV's readable. The Stark children are no different. Their maturity and intelligence levels are advanced for their chronological age. To that end, I do not agree with your example of a child pushing her father down the stairs. That would be applicable to a child of Rickon's age. What Sansa did was more like a girl of 14 going to the teacher or police and telling them that her father abuses her in order to get back at him for a perceived slight. She is old enough to know what she did was wrong, but MAYBE not understand the consequences until after the deed is done. She should still feel guilt for that action. Ned believed his children to be OBEDIENT enough to let them know ahead of time. Hind sight is 20/20, so of course we can all say he should have known better, but Sansa had ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS done exactly as she had been told in the past. Ned had no reason to believe she would start disobeying then. Of course, if GRRM believes Ned is responsible for his own demise as you say, then that is the truth. I just don't agree.
Dirjj User ID: 6960173	Jan 21st 2:12 PM Child or no, the girl should have realized by now that she has a big part to play in the downfall of her family. When her wolf (Lady) died, she blamed Arya, instead of blaming herself for not telling the truth to her father. That should have been foreshadowing enough that she was going to be the cause of her family's downfall. I really get sick and tired of people making excuses for things all the time. Not just this, but in the real world too. It's not this persons fault because of . .. it's not that persons fault because of . . . When we were all her age, we were kids legally until we turned 18, but we all thought we were grown up and knew it all. Well, in the Westeros culture, the grow up a lot faster. They're condidered adults (well they do adult things) at 14 or 15. Yes, Sansa is stupid, but you can't say she was too young to know any better. Plus, stupidity isn't an excuse. ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 21st 2:29 PM Well now, hold on Dirjj. I don't buy into the 'Sandor does bad things, but because he was horribly abused...' line. I don't buy into the 'Sansa made a mistake, but it doesn't count because she's younger' either. On the other hand, blaming her for the entire deal, or even that she betrayed her father is going too far. Her disobeying him is a much, much different deal than her betraying him. She understood nothing of the situation, she was told nothing of the situation. What she thought was happening, pretty much, was that she wsa being unfairly punished for who-knows-what. That's not stupidity. That's being a _girl_. Yes, 14-15 is a young woman -- but she wasn't 14-15. She was _11_. That's a big difference. Actually, what it is is innocence, and innocence _is_ an excuse. She's no longer innocent, and I have a vague recollection of her knowing that she's part of the reason for her father's death, but she's not in a healthy environment where she can absolutely honest with herself. Indeed, as is constantly driven into us, she survives only by the most self-effacing of lies repeated every minute of every hour of every day -- she loves Joffrey, her father and Robb are traitors, etc. When she gets out of King's Landing, it'll be the better for her. But she's a child who loved the wrong person (Joffrey), was too innocent to mistrust an even more wrong person (Cersei), and wasn't told any of the facts by one of her own loved ones (Ned.) That's not stupidity. That's misfortune. That a 11-year-old thinks they know better than an adult doesn't matter -- time and time again, that's proved to be a mistake. We don't hang 11-year-olds for thinking it, however.
Zer0hour User ID: 1432154	Jan 21st 6:17 PM I don't buy this "Children are more mature in books". Although I do agree with Rhoe that many fantasy authors can't write children for squat, I believe GRRM knows that children can are immature and what not, and have seen it in many of his young characters. Remember he is writing a historical fantasy here...and in Medieval Times, children were thrust into a horrible life, and on the outside had to learn to tough it out, making them more mature appearing, but children are always soft and child-like on the inside. Sansa may have influenced Joffrey's decision, but the sole blame cannot be put onto her. I believe this to be a good parallel with the whole situation: A little girl is told drugs are bad...don't do drugs...drug users are bad... Anyway, her daddy is a loving caring father who is always there for her, but she is also led to believe that the police are always her friends and will always help her out and be on her side. But her daddy is a drug dealer and she finds out. So she tells the cops thinking they'll make him stop, slap him on the wrist and all will be fine. The daddy ends up in jail where a fellow inmate of his murders him. Is his death the little girls fault? Indirectly, yes. Should the little girl be condemned by society because of it?... I see Sansa as the unknowing little girl. The Lannisters led her to be there friends--she trusted them. She thought that Ned, the one "guilty" of crimes, would just be sent to the Wall if she helped the Lannisters out. Now he's dead. Is his death Sansa's fault? Indirectly, yes. Should Sansa be conedemned (by all you, the READERS) for it... My point is I'm tired of seeing Sansa getting ragged on by the near lot of you. Terrible things are happening to this poor girl (i.e: she's beaten almost daily by strong, gauntlet-clad soldiers) and most of you are saying how much you hate this little girl. I can see how you'd hate a girl if she's an evil b*tch her took a dagger and went on a killing spree, but c'mon! Yes, she's snobby and annoying and nothing like her sister that we love, but this little girl is still one of the good-guys. I've grown particularly attached to all these characters and think of them as real, and I could never wish death upon her or any of the POV's for that matter, unlike the rest of you...
Dirjj User ID: 9175333	Jan 21st 9:30 PM Well, I didn't mean she's 100% responsible. She is partially responsible, and she deserves what happening to her. I've yet to see her even consider that she's at fault. I saw an episode of GET REAL on Fox the other day. Great Show. Hmm, who's hotter, the mom or the daughter. Whoops, got off the track there. Well, in the show, the the 15 or 16, year old son is driving his pregnant mom to the doctor for an appt. Some care slams their breaks on in front of him, and he rear ends the car. It was just a fender bender. Well, later in the show, the mom goes to the doctor for a checkup, and finds out that the trauma from the accident may have caused her to miscarry. Real Sad. Well, the son took it real hard and blamed himself. Going so far to consider himself a murderer. It was an accident, and circumstanced led to the accident, not his negligence. Well, we've yet to see Sansa take such an approach. Sure circumstances led to her father's and his retinues death, but she played a part. We're argueing about how much fault she should take. Regardless of how much fault, we've yet to see her feel any guilt what so ever. Sure she get's beat on, but does she say, "I'm getting beat on because I betrayed my father's wishes", No, she whines all the time that it's not fair. Nothing is fair to this brat. Albeit she may be growing as a character and maturing. Until I see her accept a bit of responsibility, I'm not having any of her. Besides. How stupid, naive, and sheltered could she have been. Her entire life the Starks and Lannisters have been near enemies. She should have known this. Everyone else in Winterfell seemed to know. Why on earth would she even consider trusting them? Arya never trusted them, and she was only 8. Hell, none of the Direwolves even trusted the Lannisters. "Hello Sansa (knocking on her head like a ripe melon), is there anyone in there?" I'm sure if she were a peasant, she could hide behind a veil of stupidity, but as a noble, I'm sure that she was educated on history and current events. You can't say that her only lessons on current events regarded what noble's son she would marry. Give me a break. ab
Zer0hour User ID: 1432154	Jan 21st 10:11 PM Sansa is at an age of rebellion. her father could have told her one thing but she had to find out for hersel if the Lannisters were bad. Plus, her father told her she was to marry the crowned prince and someday be queen. Like you said, Dirjj, she's nobility, but she is still a child! Raised in the ways of nobility, she associates the queen with superior regal. What little pretentious girl wouldn't want to be queen!?! I think she fell in love with the idea of becoming queen more-so than Joffrey. She saw that if she wanted to become queen, she had to stay friends with the current queen. SHe was selfish, yes...but I blame that on Catelyn and Septa Mordane. Just look at it: Sansa was raised to be proper and noble and such--she was raised to be "better" than commoners, which leads to want for power to stay above those commoners--she was raised to look pretty and present _herself_better than others. Arya, on the hand, rebeled against her mother and the Septa's teachings and look how cool she turned out. HELL, if your going to blame Sansa for Ned's death, than you must blame Catelyn and Septa Mordane. Sansa has done everything asked of her. Her father told her she was going to be queen, so she got all excited and befriended the Cersei, who was nothing but kind to her before, and then her father tells her she can't be queen anymore. THAT'S LIKE TELLING YOUR TEENAGE CHILD TO GET STRAIGHT A's AND THEY DO AND YOU WAVE THE KEYS IN FRONT OF THEIR FACE AND THEN TAKE 'EM AWAY!!! Of course she's gonna try to stay queen. Cersei promised her father would live. She wouldn't have said a thing if Cersei said, "Tell me your father's plans so I can kill him." Sansa always had the best...and what's better to a noble lady than being queen?
Dirjj User ID: 9175333	Jan 21st 11:35 PM Yup. Like I said before, "It's not her fault because . . . ". When is this girl going to accept any responsibility? She doensn't take responsibility for anything. And here are move of you making excuses for her. It's the Septa's fault. It's her mom's fault. She saw two dogs stuck together when she was little. Blah blah blah. Cersei wouldn't have had to be nice to her, and lie to her, if Sansa didn't go to her in the first place. Not matter what, I'm sure she learned not to trust Lannisters. Rebellion or not. If someone says don't put your hand in the fire, do you do it to rebel? If someone tells you that that the cup is filled with poison, do you rebel and drink it? No. You know better! Throught AGOT Sansa thought of nothing but herself. She's a selfish brat. Most children grow out of that attitude by the time they're 7 or 8. What's her excuse? Is she retarded? Near the end of ACOK, she actually started caring for other's. There may be hope for her. But dammit, she's got to take some responsibilty for her circumstances. People think that she and Sandor have a future. That she actually might care for the brute. Hell No. She's just facinated by him just like an idiot would be facninated by seeing a bird flying for the first time. Am I too hard on her? Yes. Does she deserve it? Hell Yeah!!! Will she redeem herself? Probably. ab
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 22nd 8:46 AM That you agree that you're "too hard" suggests that she _doesn't_ deserve it, doesn't it, Dirjj? I don't think there's much more left to say that your summary doesn't cover. :)
Zer0hour User ID: 1432154	Jan 22nd 11:02 AM I still don't see how you can be so hard Sansa! You blame her for Ned's death, and you hate her because she won't admit it. She is still a little girl and doesn't know to think that because she spilled a little information, it put Joffrey in a position to kill him. She was certain her father would live it out and go to the wall--she doesn't know how to see trickery in a situation yet. Cersei played on her naivete and ambitions. In Sansa's eyes, Joffrey killed her father because he gave the command. You blame her for the same reasons I sympathize for her. How can you expect a twelve-year-old girl to take responsibility for her father's death. She's trying to keep sane here. I don't know what I'd do if I convinced myself I was responsible for my father's death...and I'm not even a little girl who loved and needed my father.
Zer0hour User ID: 1432154	Jan 22nd 11:06 AM Dirjj, one simple question...no tricks or traps...do you wish Sansa dead just as many people predict due to Lady's death?
Alex User ID: 9704903	Jan 22nd 1:06 PM I agree completely with people defending Sansa on this thread. Come on, she is 11 years old. She, by definition, is egotistical and self-centered, and not capable of a complete analysis of the situation. And Dirjj, she still referres to Cersei as a figure of authority, because in her surroundings there are no other points of reference. She will grow up, and, when her psyche is matured enough, she is in for some very nasty realizations, but not_while_she_is_12!!!!! And, I know, that most of you like Arya so much (me included), but, rationally thinking, I would be much more afraid of a 10 years old, who would rebel, disregards any rules, and will stick a pointy sharp object in your guts as an argument. Nowadays, she would belong to mental institution! Of course, she lives in Medieval times, but, unlike Sansa, who is just a spoiled and not overly bright child, but sill a normal child (and no, Dirjj, children do not outgrow that stage by the time they are 7, no way) where Arya is a violent murderer, however justified her actions may be.
BloodBomb User ID: 0171704	Jan 22nd 1:38 PM There is one person responsible for Ned's death: Joffrey. Face it, the kid is a snot-nosed punk. Ned's death did not benefit the Lannister's at all. Cersei even expected Ned to take the black. The end of this argument is that there is no point in blaming Sansa. And what is this garbage about Arya being a violent murderer? You can't apply a 21st century viewpoint to this book. If Arya is a 'violent murderer', than what is Sir Gregor Clegane? I don't even recall Arya expressing pleasure in killing, even the pleasure Tyrion experienced outside of King's Landing. I don't think Sansa will die. Not in King's Landing, anyway. Why? How about this theory: Catelyn did not kill Jaime Lannister. She gave him Brienne's sword and set him free. That way, she could get Sansa returned to her. Whattaya think?
Alex User ID: 9704903	Jan 22nd 8:55 PM To "garbage": 21st century viewpoint have to do with moral and ethical standards, not with child psychology, which, like human psychology in general did not change much. Arya is disobedient (if you need quotes to confirm that, I'll provide), Arya is willful, Arya is disproportionately violent, even for a medieval society, and Arya kills people (most children her age do not, 13th century or 21st). Her actions do not seem so strange, because she benefits from the contrast with Sansa, who while being much more "normal" child, took an unwitting part in her father's death, where Arya appears to be "blameless" and fighting for apparent good causes, like her freedom. However, from the child psychology perspective, she is a kid with serious mental problems.