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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Lysa owns Petyr

Rughead
User ID: 0415304 Apr 20th 2:37 PM
Previous threads have extensively discussed Littlefinger as a suspect in Jon Arryn's murder and/or as a rather magnificent conspirator (GUCT: Grand Unifying Conspiracy Theory) in the assasination attempt on the recuperating Bran.

One thread (I think) briefly discusses Lysa Tully Arryn as a suspect or an accomplice.

Do the books contain suggestions or evidence that Lysa's was a murderer or conspirator - aside from the fact that she is very hard to like?

Was the hidden note to Winterfell just a desperate plea for help or a carefully crafted tool that catalyzed the Westeros storyline.

Is Lysa "behind" Littlefinger? Is Lysa, a Tully and Aunt to the Starks, a more formidable enemy than the Lannisters......

.....or is she just the doting, weak, paranoid, and foolish woman we all witnessed at the Vale?

Any thoughts?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Apr 20th 2:53 PM
The latter, most definently. She's being used. She's far too unstable and shortsighted to be a mastermind of any sort. One sees that in her presence in Cat's POV. Whatever she's done, it's been because she's been manipulated or because she's stumbling about unwittingly.

I'd say Littlefinger had some sort of affair with her in KL, for the purpose of being able to get information from her about Jon Arryn's doings (which is probably how he pieced together that Jon and Stannis were looking into the paternity of Cersei's children). I'd also say that, whether she was the one who came up with the message or not, it was Littlefinger who was the agent of its delivery.

Blackstone
User ID: 9816503 Apr 20th 6:21 PM
The message was Lysa's, whether Littlefinger arranged for it to be sent or not.

Littlefinger may have sent the message, and he may have known its contents. Lysa and Cat had a private language which Cat believed was known only to Lysa and Cat. I would bet 100 gold dragons that Littlefinger knows it too.

Lysa is definitely not a matermind, she barely has a mind at all. She sent the letter to Catelyn to warn her. She said so, but she was aghast that the Starks planned to oppose the Lannisters. Lysa has no other plans but to hold out in the Eyrie, which she believes is unassailable.

Rughead
User ID: 0415304 Apr 20th 7:04 PM
Does anyone think she is faking? - that we may witness a demonic transformation? - that she has had us fooled all along?

My recollections of stories about her youth at Riverrun are vague - lost in the fog with Cat, something in the castle with Cat and Petyr - but nothing that had her "unstable".

If the timeline is how I remember it, Lysa decompensated rather quickly after Jon Arryn's death - perhaps too quickly? Is it all a ruse?

Then there is the dying old-man Tully at Riverrun hallucinating about Lysa's "wretched stripling" - her son I imagine, or Petyr, but some mystery has yet to unfold. Maybe she's not a victim but a conspirator.

Not much evidence of this I'll admit, just a gut feeling. Plus...there were moments at Vale during the Tyrion ordeal when she seemed less frail and unstable and more evil and ruthless.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Apr 20th 9:00 PM
Ive been re-rereading AGOT and Im definetly beginning to suspect Lyssa's hand in Jon Arryns death. I think she was having an affair with Littlefinger (remember how he always goes on about the various "fat cows" that he is courting?)and that she freaked out when Jon decided to foster Robert to Stannis. Through Lyssa, Littlefinger could control the Vale.
its possible that Lyssa is some type of mastermind but I doubt it.

Ghost
User ID: 9704903 Apr 21st 2:39 AM
I don't think Lysa had anything to do with Jon Arryns death.

1. It would require a lot of cunningly planned actions that IMHO would be beyond Lysa. Not even mentioning wat it would take to keep it quiet afterwards.

2. It's far from certain Lysa had an affair with Littlefinger. We know of his obsession with the Tully sisters and he would do anything to make people think he had an affair with one of them (remember how he said he took both their maidenhoods?)

3. The point about fostering Robert is a good one, but killing Jon is not a very good way to keep Robert safe. Although applying logic to Lysa's actions is dubious becouse -contrary to Rughead- I think she was unstable long before Jon's death. I don't have much evidence supporting this apart from Robert's lack of wit. We know inheritance plays a big role in the books and Jon is allways described as a wise man, so who does that leave to account for Roberts backwardness?

Padraig
User ID: 1564944 Apr 21st 6:26 PM
It was mentioned that Lysa had several miscarriages and still births before the birth of Robert. I think that can account for a lot of her madness and protectiveness. That madness could have driven her to murder too.

Letting Tyrion go the way she did was the work on no mastermind.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Apr 21st 8:32 PM
I didnt make it clear in my last post, I dont think Lyssa is a mastermind, I think that she was manipulated by Littlefinger all along.
If she did poison Jon she may be so unstable that she has convinced herself that she didnt do it.
Ghost: I definetly think that Lyssa was having an affair with Littlefinger, he couldnt have Cat so he settled for her. After Jons murder, he told her it was the Lannisters and urged her to flee to the Vale and wait for him.
Now Littlefinger can gain a lot by being seen as the man who brings the Vale to the Lannisters side, by marrying Lyssa.Meanwhile Lyssa waits at the Eyrie, pretending to favour courtiers while waiting for Littlefinger.

Rughead
User ID: 0415304 Apr 21st 9:54 PM
Agreed, Tyrion out-maneuvered Lysa deftly, but by the skin of his teeth!

He had to risk it all and he won, but the Bronn maneuver was too much of a longshot with a complete unknown to say that Lysa was badly fooled. Especially, since his capture and arrival at the Vale is something that could not have been predicted.

Remember, GRRM painted her through the POVs of Cat and Tyrion - who represent two families at the epicenter of events - perhaps at the epicenter of certain plans.

I just think it would be a most dramatic and exciting twist if Lysa emerged as Dr. Evil, co-conspirator - its a bit of a reach, I admit.

I believe Petyr is at the center of a conspiracy thusfar, but with help.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 24th 12:53 PM
Well, my take on it is that Lysa was 'involved'...insofar as passiveness can be called involvement.

The idea runs that Lysa somehow obtained information about the plot to poison Jon Arryn, but failed to inform Jon about it, because he was going to send Robert Arryn away from her - to Dragonstone.

However, when Jon died, she heard that the King had granted that Robert should be taken ward at CR.

This explains why Lysa pointed fingers at the Lannisters after Jon died - when no one else did - but still had no inkling of the _motive_ for the crime.
(it is also uncertain how much Lysa knew about the murder's implementation, aside from the fact that it was a poisoning)

OTOH, it could be that someone (Littlefinger or Varys, presumably) told her about it only _afterwards_, effectively freeing her of any guilt.
But if that is the case, then the whole 'fostering at Dragonstone or Casterly Rock' issue is just a great Red Herring pushed into our eyes, since it (AFAICT) serves no other purpose.

WeissVan
User ID: 7433983 Apr 26th 10:27 AM
Brady, nice April 21 post -- I had always chalked up Lysa's rejection of the suitors to madness, but I had never considered it might be "waiting for Mr. Goodbar Baelish". I definitely don't think Lysa poisoned Jon, as others suggest, but the possibility that Littlefinger seduced and is now manipulating her is very real. Nice.

And the waters grow murkier. Thanks Brady. :)

Padraig
User ID: 1300074 Apr 26th 1:32 PM
Well just to nitpick. Fostering Robert Arryn in Dragonstone does show how friendly Stannis and Jon were before Jon died. And fostering Robert at Casterly Rock would give Lysa all the reason in the world to make up ridiculous claims about them killing Jon. No need for Littlefinger to get involved. This doesn't work as well and i'm not saying I believe this but its possible.

And onto the 40 messages posted in the who killed Bran topic over the last 2 days(!).

Lord Fool
User ID: 0519814 Apr 26th 7:53 PM
Ok so bye marrying Lyssa he gets the Vale and because thy are in rebellion Littlefinger also gets the Riverlands. That would eman htat he would control two of the 7 Kingdoms of westeroes...as i look into this i admire littlefingers intelligence more and more.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Apr 27th 6:14 AM
Padraig;

Um...yes, that's true, in a sense, but AFAICT, only Ned needed that information, but both he and _Cat_ is given it.
This seemed a wee bit strange to me, since I don't recall Cat using that information for anything useful in aGoT/aCoK.

As for Lysa's accusations...unless Lysa was informed by someone after the murder, it would be a bit of a coincidence if she was spot on in her guess - which she apparently was.

Padraig
User ID: 1300074 Apr 27th 4:39 PM
KAH, your right about Catelyn been told. Maybe GRRM is trying to cloud the issue. But as for Lysa's accusations I thought Varys was the current favourite for been behind Jon's death? With Littlefinger second favourite.

OTOH Littlefinger may have used the threat of the Lannisters taking Robert to convince her that they were also behind Jon's death, which would have nothing to do with whether the Lannisters truly did it.

Rughead User ID: 0415304	Apr 20th 2:37 PM Previous threads have extensively discussed Littlefinger as a suspect in Jon Arryn's murder and/or as a rather magnificent conspirator (GUCT: Grand Unifying Conspiracy Theory) in the assasination attempt on the recuperating Bran. One thread (I think) briefly discusses Lysa Tully Arryn as a suspect or an accomplice. Do the books contain suggestions or evidence that Lysa's was a murderer or conspirator - aside from the fact that she is very hard to like? Was the hidden note to Winterfell just a desperate plea for help or a carefully crafted tool that catalyzed the Westeros storyline. Is Lysa "behind" Littlefinger? Is Lysa, a Tully and Aunt to the Starks, a more formidable enemy than the Lannisters...... .....or is she just the doting, weak, paranoid, and foolish woman we all witnessed at the Vale? Any thoughts?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Apr 20th 2:53 PM The latter, most definently. She's being used. She's far too unstable and shortsighted to be a mastermind of any sort. One sees that in her presence in Cat's POV. Whatever she's done, it's been because she's been manipulated or because she's stumbling about unwittingly. I'd say Littlefinger had some sort of affair with her in KL, for the purpose of being able to get information from her about Jon Arryn's doings (which is probably how he pieced together that Jon and Stannis were looking into the paternity of Cersei's children). I'd also say that, whether she was the one who came up with the message or not, it was Littlefinger who was the agent of its delivery.
Blackstone User ID: 9816503	Apr 20th 6:21 PM The message was Lysa's, whether Littlefinger arranged for it to be sent or not. Littlefinger may have sent the message, and he may have known its contents. Lysa and Cat had a private language which Cat believed was known only to Lysa and Cat. I would bet 100 gold dragons that Littlefinger knows it too. Lysa is definitely not a matermind, she barely has a mind at all. She sent the letter to Catelyn to warn her. She said so, but she was aghast that the Starks planned to oppose the Lannisters. Lysa has no other plans but to hold out in the Eyrie, which she believes is unassailable.
Rughead User ID: 0415304	Apr 20th 7:04 PM Does anyone think she is faking? - that we may witness a demonic transformation? - that she has had us fooled all along? My recollections of stories about her youth at Riverrun are vague - lost in the fog with Cat, something in the castle with Cat and Petyr - but nothing that had her "unstable". If the timeline is how I remember it, Lysa decompensated rather quickly after Jon Arryn's death - perhaps too quickly? Is it all a ruse? Then there is the dying old-man Tully at Riverrun hallucinating about Lysa's "wretched stripling" - her son I imagine, or Petyr, but some mystery has yet to unfold. Maybe she's not a victim but a conspirator. Not much evidence of this I'll admit, just a gut feeling. Plus...there were moments at Vale during the Tyrion ordeal when she seemed less frail and unstable and more evil and ruthless.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Apr 20th 9:00 PM Ive been re-rereading AGOT and Im definetly beginning to suspect Lyssa's hand in Jon Arryns death. I think she was having an affair with Littlefinger (remember how he always goes on about the various "fat cows" that he is courting?)and that she freaked out when Jon decided to foster Robert to Stannis. Through Lyssa, Littlefinger could control the Vale. its possible that Lyssa is some type of mastermind but I doubt it.
Ghost User ID: 9704903	Apr 21st 2:39 AM I don't think Lysa had anything to do with Jon Arryns death. 1. It would require a lot of cunningly planned actions that IMHO would be beyond Lysa. Not even mentioning wat it would take to keep it quiet afterwards. 2. It's far from certain Lysa had an affair with Littlefinger. We know of his obsession with the Tully sisters and he would do anything to make people think he had an affair with one of them (remember how he said he took both their maidenhoods?) 3. The point about fostering Robert is a good one, but killing Jon is not a very good way to keep Robert safe. Although applying logic to Lysa's actions is dubious becouse -contrary to Rughead- I think she was unstable long before Jon's death. I don't have much evidence supporting this apart from Robert's lack of wit. We know inheritance plays a big role in the books and Jon is allways described as a wise man, so who does that leave to account for Roberts backwardness?
Padraig User ID: 1564944	Apr 21st 6:26 PM It was mentioned that Lysa had several miscarriages and still births before the birth of Robert. I think that can account for a lot of her madness and protectiveness. That madness could have driven her to murder too. Letting Tyrion go the way she did was the work on no mastermind.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Apr 21st 8:32 PM I didnt make it clear in my last post, I dont think Lyssa is a mastermind, I think that she was manipulated by Littlefinger all along. If she did poison Jon she may be so unstable that she has convinced herself that she didnt do it. Ghost: I definetly think that Lyssa was having an affair with Littlefinger, he couldnt have Cat so he settled for her. After Jons murder, he told her it was the Lannisters and urged her to flee to the Vale and wait for him. Now Littlefinger can gain a lot by being seen as the man who brings the Vale to the Lannisters side, by marrying Lyssa.Meanwhile Lyssa waits at the Eyrie, pretending to favour courtiers while waiting for Littlefinger.
Rughead User ID: 0415304	Apr 21st 9:54 PM Agreed, Tyrion out-maneuvered Lysa deftly, but by the skin of his teeth! He had to risk it all and he won, but the Bronn maneuver was too much of a longshot with a complete unknown to say that Lysa was badly fooled. Especially, since his capture and arrival at the Vale is something that could not have been predicted. Remember, GRRM painted her through the POVs of Cat and Tyrion - who represent two families at the epicenter of events - perhaps at the epicenter of certain plans. I just think it would be a most dramatic and exciting twist if Lysa emerged as Dr. Evil, co-conspirator - its a bit of a reach, I admit. I believe Petyr is at the center of a conspiracy thusfar, but with help.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Apr 24th 12:53 PM Well, my take on it is that Lysa was 'involved'...insofar as passiveness can be called involvement. The idea runs that Lysa somehow obtained information about the plot to poison Jon Arryn, but failed to inform Jon about it, because he was going to send Robert Arryn away from her - to Dragonstone. However, when Jon died, she heard that the King had granted that Robert should be taken ward at CR. This explains why Lysa pointed fingers at the Lannisters after Jon died - when no one else did - but still had no inkling of the _motive_ for the crime. (it is also uncertain how much Lysa knew about the murder's implementation, aside from the fact that it was a poisoning) OTOH, it could be that someone (Littlefinger or Varys, presumably) told her about it only _afterwards_, effectively freeing her of any guilt. But if that is the case, then the whole 'fostering at Dragonstone or Casterly Rock' issue is just a great Red Herring pushed into our eyes, since it (AFAICT) serves no other purpose.
WeissVan User ID: 7433983	Apr 26th 10:27 AM Brady, nice April 21 post -- I had always chalked up Lysa's rejection of the suitors to madness, but I had never considered it might be "waiting for Mr. Goodbar Baelish". I definitely don't think Lysa poisoned Jon, as others suggest, but the possibility that Littlefinger seduced and is now manipulating her is very real. Nice. And the waters grow murkier. Thanks Brady. :)
Padraig User ID: 1300074	Apr 26th 1:32 PM Well just to nitpick. Fostering Robert Arryn in Dragonstone does show how friendly Stannis and Jon were before Jon died. And fostering Robert at Casterly Rock would give Lysa all the reason in the world to make up ridiculous claims about them killing Jon. No need for Littlefinger to get involved. This doesn't work as well and i'm not saying I believe this but its possible. And onto the 40 messages posted in the who killed Bran topic over the last 2 days(!).
Lord Fool User ID: 0519814	Apr 26th 7:53 PM Ok so bye marrying Lyssa he gets the Vale and because thy are in rebellion Littlefinger also gets the Riverlands. That would eman htat he would control two of the 7 Kingdoms of westeroes...as i look into this i admire littlefingers intelligence more and more.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Apr 27th 6:14 AM Padraig; Um...yes, that's true, in a sense, but AFAICT, only Ned needed that information, but both he and _Cat_ is given it. This seemed a wee bit strange to me, since I don't recall Cat using that information for anything useful in aGoT/aCoK. As for Lysa's accusations...unless Lysa was informed by someone after the murder, it would be a bit of a coincidence if she was spot on in her guess - which she apparently was.
Padraig User ID: 1300074	Apr 27th 4:39 PM KAH, your right about Catelyn been told. Maybe GRRM is trying to cloud the issue. But as for Lysa's accusations I thought Varys was the current favourite for been behind Jon's death? With Littlefinger second favourite. OTOH Littlefinger may have used the threat of the Lannisters taking Robert to convince her that they were also behind Jon's death, which would have nothing to do with whether the Lannisters truly did it.