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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Dany: Does she know?

Next 20 Messages

Ser Benjen
User ID: 1195644 Nov 19th 8:12 AM
Something I have been wondering of late.

Dany has never set foot on the mainland of Westeros. How much can she really know about it. Does she know about the Wall, ot the Others. Has she ever heard of the First Men or the Children of the forest?

I think I may ask GRRM about this one.

Min
User ID: 1446254 Nov 19th 8:16 AM
I think he may not tell you. :-)

Dany's vision is blurred and twisted by the reports of her brother. She never knew about the old King's madness, never knew about why Robert Baratheon took the throne. For her, he was nothing but a usurper and child murderer, and those who fought with him, too. She might know about the Others, the Children, because these are tales from the old times, and she might know these. But she knows not much about the history and society of her kingdom that comes even close to some reality.

Ran
User ID: 8075153 Nov 19th 8:52 AM
She was raised for some years by Ser Willem Darry, and even if he only told her a very little, Ser Jorah is a Northerner, has told her a little about Bear Island and the Starks, and gave her (as a wedding present) certain books containing old tales and histories of the Seven Kingdoms.

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Nov 21st 9:48 PM
Also, I believe she has learned a bit from Illyrio while living in his home. She will soon be receiving more recent and accurate information from Arstan, who we are all positive is Sir Barristan Selmy.

ab

Drone
User ID: 0087674 Nov 21st 11:43 PM
she may know, or rather think she knows a bit about the seven kingdoms, but we can't forget who told her most of the information that she knows... her brother who was a raging lunitic, not to mention a moron, and ser jorah who is just a pawn of a man who hold information to be more valuable than gold. i think that this would be a great queation to ask it, although i agree with min... he probably won't tell you.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Nov 22nd 5:03 AM
I wonder about Selmy...if he is found out (or comes forth on his own volition), will he tell Dany the truth about her father?

Considering how he will not be in her good books for going over to Robert, she might think that Barristan's claims of Aerys' insanity is just a lame excuse, and send him on his way.

Of course, Jorah could disabuse her of such notions, but Barristan cannot know that he will do so.

Dirjj
User ID: 0094674 Nov 24th 0:33 AM
Hmmm, one needs to re-read the books. One doesn't recall if Selmy's reputation has preceded him such that his words will be taken as truth by any who know of him, and speak with him. After all, he is a living legend.

ab

Padraig
User ID: 9070813 Nov 24th 3:30 PM
Well all Dany knows about Barristan is that he betrayed her father by siding with the Usurper when the war finished.

I am dieing for someone to tell Dany a few home truths about that war.

Snake
User ID: 0018434 Nov 25th 3:57 PM
I think Ser Jorah would probably agree with Selmy, assuming he's Arstan, and convince Dany also. She will need allies and I think Jorah and Co. will tell her to forget the past and concentrate on the future. The Tyrell's are lost to her and the Martell's, who knows. Her only hope may be the North. Riverlands and the Eyrie. To even get them she'll have to prove that she's not like dear old Dad.

Malice
User ID: 0826264 Nov 25th 6:28 PM
I don't know about Jorah's "forget the past" attitude. He certainly expressed a good deal of hatred for Ned, who was an very honorable person (don't we know it); I mean his hatred was very founded but he didn't look at his enemy any other way.

That is the idea I got, at least.

Though I agree Jorah'll be willing to get her to concentrate on the benefits of having Barristan around, Dany might have thought of it herself, mightn't she? (jeez I'm turning into a Briton) On several occasions she notes how very slim her chances are of getting back her kingdom. She thinks partly in the "Ohmygod look I have no army" vein.

What do U all think?

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Nov 26th 5:24 AM
Well...Barristan has a great reputation, but I doubt it will be enough to give her an army.
It could be enough to sway a few knights and lords outside the immediate Lannister and Tyrell circle.

I guess especially _Storm lords_ might turn to Barristan; since Stannis lost, and with Robert and Renly dead, they lack natural leadership from within their own home ground (I don't believe Stannis would ever get their support again). Barristan is a Selmy, after all, born in the Storm lands.

The Lannisters would undoubtedly try to put an outsider loyal to them at Storm's End, and I doubt that would be well received.

Padraig
User ID: 9593383 Nov 26th 5:04 PM
Wasn't it Labour that pointed out that Tommen would be in line for Storm's End? After Stannis's claims that would be interesting.

I know that will get an army but I have no idea how.

Dirjj
User ID: 1432154 Nov 26th 9:58 PM
Well, if by having Selmy on her side attracts some few lords and knights, might said lords and knights attract others? Sort of like a Domino effect?

I agree with my friend Kay, the Storm Lords are at this time Lordless, and need someone to rally behind. They never really wanted to rally behind Stannis, and now that Stannis (if still alive) is cooped up on his pebble in the sea, I'm sure they are looking for someone to lead them. Selmy has the name recognition to do it.

ab

Ran
User ID: 8075153 Nov 27th 5:05 AM
A large number of the Storm Lords were brought into the fold by the Knight of Flowers. They're lordless, yes, but no doubt part of the small council's concerns is preparing way for them to send a small expedition south to get whoever hodls Storm's End now bends the knee. I don't think they'd put Tommen as the lord -- he's just a kid.

I'm not quite sure who I'd have the Crown put there as castellan.

Padraig
User ID: 9593383 Nov 27th 5:36 AM
Yes who takes the position of Castellan will be very important. But that person may just be acting as a regent until Tommen comes of age. There's not many other supposed Baretheons around to take the position especially with Myrcella supposed to marry a Martell.

IMO Dany needs at least one of the major families to back her. The obvious choice is the Martells but I can't see why they would bother.

KAH
User ID: 9209903 Nov 27th 9:10 AM
Ran;

What Storm Lords did Loras bring into the fold? Are you referring to those who (however many they are) remained with the foot at Bitterbridge?

I do not recall who Stannis left as castellan at Storm's End (if it indeed was mentioned), but unless that one bends the knee, one would assume that the Lannisters would not have too much problem with finding some ambitious Storm lord who agreed to swear to Joff.

BTW, I wonder what'll happen to Davos' keep at Cape Wrath, now that Stannis is put out of business - he reckoned that the other lords would make short shrift with the Onion Knight, if Stannis fell... (OK, now I'm getting off-topic again...)

As to Dirjj's suggestion - I think if we talk about lords going over to Dany via Domino effect, the Dragons will have a much bigger effect in that respect than Barristan.

Those 'Domino' lords would largely be those who are looking out for their own (rather than worrying about honor, and suchlike), and then fire-breathing dragons would go much further in attracting lords than the 'gravity effect' of one great house (assuming that Barristan attracts _all_ the Storm lords, which we probably cannot assume)

But it can certainly have _some_ effect. It remains to be seen just how large...

Ran
User ID: 8075153 Nov 27th 9:47 AM
Well, Maester Ballabar tells us that the Knight of Flowers was instrumental in the Battle of the Blackwater, where most of the Storm Lord's shouted for Renly. Of course, I think Loras _is_ "Renly's ghost," but even if he's just the guy who had the idea or made it possible ... he brought them in.

(I guess it can be argued that it was really Littlefinger, since Loras wouldn't have shown up in the first place otherwise, but I have my doubts as to Littlefinger actually _fighting_ and being on the field ;)

In any case, there's quite a lot of them who turned to the Tyrell-Lannister alliance or were made to do so, so ... no doubt there's a garrison in Storm's End, but I'm curious if it's particularly strong. Stannis may have left it very weak, fully believing that he'd win now that Renly was dead.

dirjj
User ID: 9990163 Nov 30th 2:47 PM
Whoa!!! Littlefinger? Someone actually speculated that Littlefinger wore Renly's armour? Or that Littlefinger just participated in the batter. I can't see him being warrioresque.

I suppose the dragons would cause the greater tumber of the dominoes. If they made a Stark King kneal, imagine what they would do to a bunch of lordless nobles.

ab

Ran
User ID: 8075153 Nov 30th 6:02 PM
Err, sorry. I didn't say the whole quote. Maester Ballabar says that wise men know better (than hat Renly saved the day), and credited it to Lord Tyrell, Lord Tywin, the Knight of Flowers, and Lord Littlefinger (presumably for putting together the alliance.)

My digression had to do with "who was most instrumental" -- the Knight of Flowers (if he's "Renly's ghost") or Littlefinger.

Claidhaim
User ID: 9544623 Dec 1st 8:58 AM
Well, Renly was the Lord of Storm's End, so those storm lords would naturally want to fight for him rather than his dour brother, no matter the claim. If Renly were alive, they would fight for him and not Stannis.

Next 20 Messages

Ser Benjen User ID: 1195644	Nov 19th 8:12 AM Something I have been wondering of late. Dany has never set foot on the mainland of Westeros. How much can she really know about it. Does she know about the Wall, ot the Others. Has she ever heard of the First Men or the Children of the forest? I think I may ask GRRM about this one.
Min User ID: 1446254	Nov 19th 8:16 AM I think he may not tell you. :-) Dany's vision is blurred and twisted by the reports of her brother. She never knew about the old King's madness, never knew about why Robert Baratheon took the throne. For her, he was nothing but a usurper and child murderer, and those who fought with him, too. She might know about the Others, the Children, because these are tales from the old times, and she might know these. But she knows not much about the history and society of her kingdom that comes even close to some reality.
Ran User ID: 8075153	Nov 19th 8:52 AM She was raised for some years by Ser Willem Darry, and even if he only told her a very little, Ser Jorah is a Northerner, has told her a little about Bear Island and the Starks, and gave her (as a wedding present) certain books containing old tales and histories of the Seven Kingdoms.
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Nov 21st 9:48 PM Also, I believe she has learned a bit from Illyrio while living in his home. She will soon be receiving more recent and accurate information from Arstan, who we are all positive is Sir Barristan Selmy. ab
Drone User ID: 0087674	Nov 21st 11:43 PM she may know, or rather think she knows a bit about the seven kingdoms, but we can't forget who told her most of the information that she knows... her brother who was a raging lunitic, not to mention a moron, and ser jorah who is just a pawn of a man who hold information to be more valuable than gold. i think that this would be a great queation to ask it, although i agree with min... he probably won't tell you.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Nov 22nd 5:03 AM I wonder about Selmy...if he is found out (or comes forth on his own volition), will he tell Dany the truth about her father? Considering how he will not be in her good books for going over to Robert, she might think that Barristan's claims of Aerys' insanity is just a lame excuse, and send him on his way. Of course, Jorah could disabuse her of such notions, but Barristan cannot know that he will do so.
Dirjj User ID: 0094674	Nov 24th 0:33 AM Hmmm, one needs to re-read the books. One doesn't recall if Selmy's reputation has preceded him such that his words will be taken as truth by any who know of him, and speak with him. After all, he is a living legend. ab
Padraig User ID: 9070813	Nov 24th 3:30 PM Well all Dany knows about Barristan is that he betrayed her father by siding with the Usurper when the war finished. I am dieing for someone to tell Dany a few home truths about that war.
Snake User ID: 0018434	Nov 25th 3:57 PM I think Ser Jorah would probably agree with Selmy, assuming he's Arstan, and convince Dany also. She will need allies and I think Jorah and Co. will tell her to forget the past and concentrate on the future. The Tyrell's are lost to her and the Martell's, who knows. Her only hope may be the North. Riverlands and the Eyrie. To even get them she'll have to prove that she's not like dear old Dad.
Malice User ID: 0826264	Nov 25th 6:28 PM I don't know about Jorah's "forget the past" attitude. He certainly expressed a good deal of hatred for Ned, who was an very honorable person (don't we know it); I mean his hatred was very founded but he didn't look at his enemy any other way. That is the idea I got, at least. Though I agree Jorah'll be willing to get her to concentrate on the benefits of having Barristan around, Dany might have thought of it herself, mightn't she? (jeez I'm turning into a Briton) On several occasions she notes how very slim her chances are of getting back her kingdom. She thinks partly in the "Ohmygod look I have no army" vein. What do U all think?
KAH User ID: 9209903	Nov 26th 5:24 AM Well...Barristan has a great reputation, but I doubt it will be enough to give her an army. It could be enough to sway a few knights and lords outside the immediate Lannister and Tyrell circle. I guess especially _Storm lords_ might turn to Barristan; since Stannis lost, and with Robert and Renly dead, they lack natural leadership from within their own home ground (I don't believe Stannis would ever get their support again). Barristan is a Selmy, after all, born in the Storm lands. The Lannisters would undoubtedly try to put an outsider loyal to them at Storm's End, and I doubt that would be well received.
Padraig User ID: 9593383	Nov 26th 5:04 PM Wasn't it Labour that pointed out that Tommen would be in line for Storm's End? After Stannis's claims that would be interesting. I know that will get an army but I have no idea how.
Dirjj User ID: 1432154	Nov 26th 9:58 PM Well, if by having Selmy on her side attracts some few lords and knights, might said lords and knights attract others? Sort of like a Domino effect? I agree with my friend Kay, the Storm Lords are at this time Lordless, and need someone to rally behind. They never really wanted to rally behind Stannis, and now that Stannis (if still alive) is cooped up on his pebble in the sea, I'm sure they are looking for someone to lead them. Selmy has the name recognition to do it. ab
Ran User ID: 8075153	Nov 27th 5:05 AM A large number of the Storm Lords were brought into the fold by the Knight of Flowers. They're lordless, yes, but no doubt part of the small council's concerns is preparing way for them to send a small expedition south to get whoever hodls Storm's End now bends the knee. I don't think they'd put Tommen as the lord -- he's just a kid. I'm not quite sure who I'd have the Crown put there as castellan.
Padraig User ID: 9593383	Nov 27th 5:36 AM Yes who takes the position of Castellan will be very important. But that person may just be acting as a regent until Tommen comes of age. There's not many other supposed Baretheons around to take the position especially with Myrcella supposed to marry a Martell. IMO Dany needs at least one of the major families to back her. The obvious choice is the Martells but I can't see why they would bother.
KAH User ID: 9209903	Nov 27th 9:10 AM Ran; What Storm Lords did Loras bring into the fold? Are you referring to those who (however many they are) remained with the foot at Bitterbridge? I do not recall who Stannis left as castellan at Storm's End (if it indeed was mentioned), but unless that one bends the knee, one would assume that the Lannisters would not have too much problem with finding some ambitious Storm lord who agreed to swear to Joff. BTW, I wonder what'll happen to Davos' keep at Cape Wrath, now that Stannis is put out of business - he reckoned that the other lords would make short shrift with the Onion Knight, if Stannis fell... (OK, now I'm getting off-topic again...) As to Dirjj's suggestion - I think if we talk about lords going over to Dany via Domino effect, the Dragons will have a much bigger effect in that respect than Barristan. Those 'Domino' lords would largely be those who are looking out for their own (rather than worrying about honor, and suchlike), and then fire-breathing dragons would go much further in attracting lords than the 'gravity effect' of one great house (assuming that Barristan attracts _all_ the Storm lords, which we probably cannot assume) But it can certainly have _some_ effect. It remains to be seen just how large...
Ran User ID: 8075153	Nov 27th 9:47 AM Well, Maester Ballabar tells us that the Knight of Flowers was instrumental in the Battle of the Blackwater, where most of the Storm Lord's shouted for Renly. Of course, I think Loras _is_ "Renly's ghost," but even if he's just the guy who had the idea or made it possible ... he brought them in. (I guess it can be argued that it was really Littlefinger, since Loras wouldn't have shown up in the first place otherwise, but I have my doubts as to Littlefinger actually _fighting_ and being on the field ;) In any case, there's quite a lot of them who turned to the Tyrell-Lannister alliance or were made to do so, so ... no doubt there's a garrison in Storm's End, but I'm curious if it's particularly strong. Stannis may have left it very weak, fully believing that he'd win now that Renly was dead.
dirjj User ID: 9990163	Nov 30th 2:47 PM Whoa!!! Littlefinger? Someone actually speculated that Littlefinger wore Renly's armour? Or that Littlefinger just participated in the batter. I can't see him being warrioresque. I suppose the dragons would cause the greater tumber of the dominoes. If they made a Stark King kneal, imagine what they would do to a bunch of lordless nobles. ab
Ran User ID: 8075153	Nov 30th 6:02 PM Err, sorry. I didn't say the whole quote. Maester Ballabar says that wise men know better (than hat Renly saved the day), and credited it to Lord Tyrell, Lord Tywin, the Knight of Flowers, and Lord Littlefinger (presumably for putting together the alliance.) My digression had to do with "who was most instrumental" -- the Knight of Flowers (if he's "Renly's ghost") or Littlefinger.
Claidhaim User ID: 9544623	Dec 1st 8:58 AM Well, Renly was the Lord of Storm's End, so those storm lords would naturally want to fight for him rather than his dour brother, no matter the claim. If Renly were alive, they would fight for him and not Stannis.