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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Robb?

Alexaendra
User ID: 1509104 Apr 24th 9:25 PM
Robb is one of my favorite characters, but a lot of people think he will die. I was wondering if he is anyone else's near top favorite character and why? I think he shows signs of possible character development, (if given the chance), and good leadership qualities for a 15 year old. I think Dany's vision and Theon's dream could be prophetic, but maybe G.R.R.M. is leading us a different way. Usually he doesn't seem to spell things out like that... Also, does anyone have any idea as to why/how the Freys'/Boltons' did/didn't betray Robb? I am reading ACOK the 2nd time around, and was just curious, because I can't figure it out! By the way I am new to the board.

Forgive any errors, I've worked on a report all day...

Alexaendra

REDHORN
User ID: 9391453 Apr 24th 10:32 PM
I agree with you Alexaendra. Robb is a character which exhibits definite possibility as a very interesting and dynamic person later on in the series. Although, i wonder if Martin will elaborate on him in aSoS, for the plot doesn't seem to be heading in that direction in this book. I feel that if Robb doesn't die, which I don't think will happen, he will become a more detailed character in the second trilogy of the series. And about Dany's vision, i agree with you as well. I don't think that Martin would reveal his plans so easily. Even though the evidence points in the other direction, but since when could you rely on the evidence! It's the seven kingdoms, not goddamned America!
But about the Boltons, i haven't read aCoK in awhile, so i can't answer that for you.
But i did write an english paper today!!!!!

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Apr 25th 1:18 AM
Robb seems to have inherited the best of the Tully and Stark bloodlines, and Im really hoping he doesnt die but I think he will. He will go down in history as the 'Young Wolf', the boy king who dared to defy the Lannisters.
As to Roose Bolton betraying Robb, IMHO he has cut a deal either with the Ironmen or with the Lannisters. Either way I think hes definetly a traitor to Robb, and thats why Arya instinctively doesnt trust him.

Relic
User ID: 9328513 Apr 25th 2:23 AM
Rob is like the Typical Boy Hero from most fantasy novels and even more so, from video game r.p.g's. He's a young kid, with a heave burden to carry on his shoulders, placed in an unevinable postion. And hes succeding. Makes you want to jump up and start rooting for the guy. I mean who doesnt wish they were like him, young, dashing, daring, and victorious(for the time being)

But i fear George Martin has a grand scheme in mind, something that goes along the lines of shock and "rude awakenings". So while i dearly feel for Rob and hope he escapes badly wounded (like Theon's dream forshadows), me thinks hes gonna meet his maker.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1502094 Apr 25th 8:30 AM
Alexaendra,

Believe it or not, the issue of whether or not Robb would die was one of the most hotly debated topics shortly after the birth of this board. I was one who disagreed with the doomsayers. Like you, I was bothered by the fact that there were so many omens and dreams prophesizing Robb's demise. Too many, in fact. We can add to that GRRM's own statement that Robb will never by a POV. So....all the evidence suggests Robb's a goner, right? Except that this story was written by a man who throws a better curve ball than Pedro Martinez.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Apr 25th 8:55 AM
My pet theory on all this, which I've stated elsewhere, is that Martin's evident knowledge of English history will be repeated in what happens to Robb. Like Alfred the Great, Robb will be forced by viking marauders into a swampy haven, later to emerge and liberate his homeland. For Alfred, the place was Athelney. For Robb, it will be the Neck. I think a bit of a twist will be added in that Robb will be grievously injured in battle -- my guess is that he'll lose an arm -- and will have to spend a long period recovering from that wound and organizing supporters at Greywater Watch. That's sort of what will be happening during the five-year gap.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 2122084 Apr 25th 9:04 AM
There was some good conversation on the "Bolton and Frey..." topic under this heading (CoK II) recently.

There was some evidence given of Bolton's alleged betrayal and some other interesting points as well.

I personally would love for Robb to survive, I just think it would be against the odds, considering the forces stacked against him.

Trebla
User ID: 0721754 Apr 25th 10:55 AM
I am in the camp that believes that Robb is doomed. And not just for the foreshadowing. It is the 5 year gap. there has to be relative peace for the gap to work. And for that to work, the war must end. The odds of the Starks winning this war are now long. And I just don't see Robb surrendering. So either death or imprisonment.

Aloriana
User ID: 1641184 Jun 21st 12:32 PM
Or stalemate. Or a common enemy who hates both sides and that both sides hate or fear enough to put differneces aside for the moment to face together. Long shot, I know but less expected things have happened.

Padraig
User ID: 8548253 Jun 21st 5:56 PM
Hi Aloriana. Been a while. Will the Others arrive on the scene in aSoS. I just got this image of one side wining their civil war and then hearing that the Others had overrun the Watch. But that doesn't leave things at all tied up.

SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY
User ID: 0436494 Jun 22nd 10:08 AM
Excellent Point, Jeff!
I have a number of additions;
1. Robb will not die. GRRM's literary style has us all second guessing the books. He never deals with Robb, so therefore we assume he will die. However, GRRM will probably subvert this and allow Robb to live!!
2. The 5 year gap will alllow Robb to grow into a man and better warleader. He will have maturity and strength to match his Crown.
3. The possibilities for the Neck are endless. We've heard nothing about that and Greywater Watch, and very little about Howland Reed. Therefore, I reckon that Robb will hole up there for a while, licking his wounds and gathering his forces about him. He won't die, but will probably be seriously injured (won't lose a limb. though -i think an eye), and Howland Reed will effectively be his protector.
THUS SPAKE SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY.

MILEN
User ID: 0658904 Jun 22nd 2:20 PM
Well if Robb doesn't die, he's gonna learn who his real friends are anyway. I'd imagine all but the most loyal are getting ready to sue for peace or even betray him. The question on my mind, is if he lives what allies will be left to him?

Aloriana
User ID: 1641184 Jun 22nd 4:07 PM
And I'm afraid the US Army sees fit to send me away again so until August this will probably be my last posting. Unless "bad things" happen...
I think Robb will be defeated but not killed. I think he'll escape and Howland Reed or his successor will take care of him until he can reclaim his kingdom. And that's were I think Arya comes in. She'll pave (sp?) they way for his return. In the meantime, Robb becomes closer to his wolf and becomes a much wiser, less brash man. The Lannisters will make more enemies than they can imagine and they'll ally with Robb.
Or, another less favorite theory...
Dany sails home with her dragons and in order to stop her Robb and Joff team up before going for each others throats again. My reasoning is that Dany hates the Lanisters because of Jaime and its doubtful she'll forgive the Starks because of Ned. Though its possible she'll find out that from some "magical" source that Jon is both Stark and Targaryen.
Whatever happens between now and then, I expect that the Starks will be the survivors in the game of thrones.

Jeff
User ID: 8813033 Jun 22nd 7:36 PM
Sparhawk, losing an eye sounds good to me. I just picked an arm because the wound would be more grievous and require a longer recovery. Though I suppose a bad eye injury could involve most of the face. That would seem to be a bit redundant given what happened to Tyrion, though.

I think Martin intentionally has raised the possibility that Robb will die in order to stimulate the exact type of thoughts we're having. The premonitions, dreams, etc are sufficiently ambiguous that permit Robb's survival.

Brady
User ID: 0721754 Jun 22nd 9:06 PM
I dunno, i think robb is wormsfood. Five yeras is too long a break, I cant imagine it would take that long to recover from an injury, even a grievous (sp?) one.
What about other possibilities? Robb being taken hostage? Forcedto join the Nights Watch?

SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY
User ID: 0436494 Jun 23rd 5:29 AM
i'm not saying that he'll take 5 years to recover from an injury, there are a number of options. he will probably spend part of the time recovering from an injury, and then the rest surreptitiously building up and concentrating his forces, as well as seeking new allies. i think ultimately that the wildlings will join up with robb. alternatively, he could be captured by the lannisters and thrown into the equivalent of the Tower of London, for a year or two, and then make his escape, or thirdly, he could go into exile for a few years,
however, if as i suspect, he'll be crushed, it wil take him quite a long time to build up forces sufficient to trouble the lannisters again - so 5 years aint really that long.
on a slightly related topic, i believe that catelyn tully will die in ASOS, and the tully house will be obliterated.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Jun 23rd 6:26 AM
He-he, everyone is soo attached to Robb the Boy ;). Myself, I think that Bran is the future leader of the North in the second Long Night. With the Others, conventional fighting prowess and generalship like Robb's can only get one so far.

But regardless, let's not forget that the Lannisters aren't given to the usual fiction/movie villains failings. If Robb is captured he'd be faced with an immediate choice between execution and taking the black. He won't be put into some cosy cell which he'll be able to conveniently escape from 1 or 2 years later.

So, if Robb is to survive and not as a black brother, he'd have either to hide somewhere (Greywater Watch) or to go into exile. I can imagine Robb being gravely wounded, taken to Greywater Watch while unconcious by the loyal cohorts and forced to stay abed for several months. It wouldn't even have to be an ultimatively crippling wound (we have had enough of those already), just a dangerous one. And by the time he'll be healthy enough to move around, the new order will already be in place.

Damn, it still feels like a conventional fantasy weaseling out in order not to kill a beloved character, but it could happen.

SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY
User ID: 0436494 Jun 23rd 7:11 AM
the idea that robb would be confined for a year or two in a Tower -like thing, didn't come from regular movie/fiction, labor, but the War of the Roses. It was a common enough occurrence in thise days.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Jun 23rd 3:26 PM
When searching for power
Check out yonder tower

Alexaendra User ID: 1509104	Apr 24th 9:25 PM Robb is one of my favorite characters, but a lot of people think he will die. I was wondering if he is anyone else's near top favorite character and why? I think he shows signs of possible character development, (if given the chance), and good leadership qualities for a 15 year old. I think Dany's vision and Theon's dream could be prophetic, but maybe G.R.R.M. is leading us a different way. Usually he doesn't seem to spell things out like that... Also, does anyone have any idea as to why/how the Freys'/Boltons' did/didn't betray Robb? I am reading ACOK the 2nd time around, and was just curious, because I can't figure it out! By the way I am new to the board. Forgive any errors, I've worked on a report all day... Alexaendra
REDHORN User ID: 9391453	Apr 24th 10:32 PM I agree with you Alexaendra. Robb is a character which exhibits definite possibility as a very interesting and dynamic person later on in the series. Although, i wonder if Martin will elaborate on him in aSoS, for the plot doesn't seem to be heading in that direction in this book. I feel that if Robb doesn't die, which I don't think will happen, he will become a more detailed character in the second trilogy of the series. And about Dany's vision, i agree with you as well. I don't think that Martin would reveal his plans so easily. Even though the evidence points in the other direction, but since when could you rely on the evidence! It's the seven kingdoms, not goddamned America! But about the Boltons, i haven't read aCoK in awhile, so i can't answer that for you. But i did write an english paper today!!!!!
Brady User ID: 0721754	Apr 25th 1:18 AM Robb seems to have inherited the best of the Tully and Stark bloodlines, and Im really hoping he doesnt die but I think he will. He will go down in history as the 'Young Wolf', the boy king who dared to defy the Lannisters. As to Roose Bolton betraying Robb, IMHO he has cut a deal either with the Ironmen or with the Lannisters. Either way I think hes definetly a traitor to Robb, and thats why Arya instinctively doesnt trust him.
Relic User ID: 9328513	Apr 25th 2:23 AM Rob is like the Typical Boy Hero from most fantasy novels and even more so, from video game r.p.g's. He's a young kid, with a heave burden to carry on his shoulders, placed in an unevinable postion. And hes succeding. Makes you want to jump up and start rooting for the guy. I mean who doesnt wish they were like him, young, dashing, daring, and victorious(for the time being) But i fear George Martin has a grand scheme in mind, something that goes along the lines of shock and "rude awakenings". So while i dearly feel for Rob and hope he escapes badly wounded (like Theon's dream forshadows), me thinks hes gonna meet his maker.
Ser Gary User ID: 1502094	Apr 25th 8:30 AM Alexaendra, Believe it or not, the issue of whether or not Robb would die was one of the most hotly debated topics shortly after the birth of this board. I was one who disagreed with the doomsayers. Like you, I was bothered by the fact that there were so many omens and dreams prophesizing Robb's demise. Too many, in fact. We can add to that GRRM's own statement that Robb will never by a POV. So....all the evidence suggests Robb's a goner, right? Except that this story was written by a man who throws a better curve ball than Pedro Martinez.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Apr 25th 8:55 AM My pet theory on all this, which I've stated elsewhere, is that Martin's evident knowledge of English history will be repeated in what happens to Robb. Like Alfred the Great, Robb will be forced by viking marauders into a swampy haven, later to emerge and liberate his homeland. For Alfred, the place was Athelney. For Robb, it will be the Neck. I think a bit of a twist will be added in that Robb will be grievously injured in battle -- my guess is that he'll lose an arm -- and will have to spend a long period recovering from that wound and organizing supporters at Greywater Watch. That's sort of what will be happening during the five-year gap.
Ser Benjen User ID: 2122084	Apr 25th 9:04 AM There was some good conversation on the "Bolton and Frey..." topic under this heading (CoK II) recently. There was some evidence given of Bolton's alleged betrayal and some other interesting points as well. I personally would love for Robb to survive, I just think it would be against the odds, considering the forces stacked against him.
Trebla User ID: 0721754	Apr 25th 10:55 AM I am in the camp that believes that Robb is doomed. And not just for the foreshadowing. It is the 5 year gap. there has to be relative peace for the gap to work. And for that to work, the war must end. The odds of the Starks winning this war are now long. And I just don't see Robb surrendering. So either death or imprisonment.
Aloriana User ID: 1641184	Jun 21st 12:32 PM Or stalemate. Or a common enemy who hates both sides and that both sides hate or fear enough to put differneces aside for the moment to face together. Long shot, I know but less expected things have happened.
Padraig User ID: 8548253	Jun 21st 5:56 PM Hi Aloriana. Been a while. Will the Others arrive on the scene in aSoS. I just got this image of one side wining their civil war and then hearing that the Others had overrun the Watch. But that doesn't leave things at all tied up.
SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY User ID: 0436494	Jun 22nd 10:08 AM Excellent Point, Jeff! I have a number of additions; 1. Robb will not die. GRRM's literary style has us all second guessing the books. He never deals with Robb, so therefore we assume he will die. However, GRRM will probably subvert this and allow Robb to live!! 2. The 5 year gap will alllow Robb to grow into a man and better warleader. He will have maturity and strength to match his Crown. 3. The possibilities for the Neck are endless. We've heard nothing about that and Greywater Watch, and very little about Howland Reed. Therefore, I reckon that Robb will hole up there for a while, licking his wounds and gathering his forces about him. He won't die, but will probably be seriously injured (won't lose a limb. though -i think an eye), and Howland Reed will effectively be his protector. THUS SPAKE SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY.
MILEN User ID: 0658904	Jun 22nd 2:20 PM Well if Robb doesn't die, he's gonna learn who his real friends are anyway. I'd imagine all but the most loyal are getting ready to sue for peace or even betray him. The question on my mind, is if he lives what allies will be left to him?
Aloriana User ID: 1641184	Jun 22nd 4:07 PM And I'm afraid the US Army sees fit to send me away again so until August this will probably be my last posting. Unless "bad things" happen... I think Robb will be defeated but not killed. I think he'll escape and Howland Reed or his successor will take care of him until he can reclaim his kingdom. And that's were I think Arya comes in. She'll pave (sp?) they way for his return. In the meantime, Robb becomes closer to his wolf and becomes a much wiser, less brash man. The Lannisters will make more enemies than they can imagine and they'll ally with Robb. Or, another less favorite theory... Dany sails home with her dragons and in order to stop her Robb and Joff team up before going for each others throats again. My reasoning is that Dany hates the Lanisters because of Jaime and its doubtful she'll forgive the Starks because of Ned. Though its possible she'll find out that from some "magical" source that Jon is both Stark and Targaryen. Whatever happens between now and then, I expect that the Starks will be the survivors in the game of thrones.
Jeff User ID: 8813033	Jun 22nd 7:36 PM Sparhawk, losing an eye sounds good to me. I just picked an arm because the wound would be more grievous and require a longer recovery. Though I suppose a bad eye injury could involve most of the face. That would seem to be a bit redundant given what happened to Tyrion, though. I think Martin intentionally has raised the possibility that Robb will die in order to stimulate the exact type of thoughts we're having. The premonitions, dreams, etc are sufficiently ambiguous that permit Robb's survival.
Brady User ID: 0721754	Jun 22nd 9:06 PM I dunno, i think robb is wormsfood. Five yeras is too long a break, I cant imagine it would take that long to recover from an injury, even a grievous (sp?) one. What about other possibilities? Robb being taken hostage? Forcedto join the Nights Watch?
SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY User ID: 0436494	Jun 23rd 5:29 AM i'm not saying that he'll take 5 years to recover from an injury, there are a number of options. he will probably spend part of the time recovering from an injury, and then the rest surreptitiously building up and concentrating his forces, as well as seeking new allies. i think ultimately that the wildlings will join up with robb. alternatively, he could be captured by the lannisters and thrown into the equivalent of the Tower of London, for a year or two, and then make his escape, or thirdly, he could go into exile for a few years, however, if as i suspect, he'll be crushed, it wil take him quite a long time to build up forces sufficient to trouble the lannisters again - so 5 years aint really that long. on a slightly related topic, i believe that catelyn tully will die in ASOS, and the tully house will be obliterated.
labor User ID: 0798784	Jun 23rd 6:26 AM He-he, everyone is soo attached to Robb the Boy ;). Myself, I think that Bran is the future leader of the North in the second Long Night. With the Others, conventional fighting prowess and generalship like Robb's can only get one so far. But regardless, let's not forget that the Lannisters aren't given to the usual fiction/movie villains failings. If Robb is captured he'd be faced with an immediate choice between execution and taking the black. He won't be put into some cosy cell which he'll be able to conveniently escape from 1 or 2 years later. So, if Robb is to survive and not as a black brother, he'd have either to hide somewhere (Greywater Watch) or to go into exile. I can imagine Robb being gravely wounded, taken to Greywater Watch while unconcious by the loyal cohorts and forced to stay abed for several months. It wouldn't even have to be an ultimatively crippling wound (we have had enough of those already), just a dangerous one. And by the time he'll be healthy enough to move around, the new order will already be in place. Damn, it still feels like a conventional fantasy weaseling out in order not to kill a beloved character, but it could happen.
SPARHAWK THE MIGHTY User ID: 0436494	Jun 23rd 7:11 AM the idea that robb would be confined for a year or two in a Tower -like thing, didn't come from regular movie/fiction, labor, but the War of the Roses. It was a common enough occurrence in thise days.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Jun 23rd 3:26 PM When searching for power Check out yonder tower