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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Hoster Tully's "wretched stripling"

Rughead
User ID: 0665994 Jan 26th 10:23 PM
Lord Tully's confused and hallucinatory statements to Cat (thinking she was Lysa) included, "That stripling...wretched boy...not speak that name to me, your duty...your mother, she would ..." Could he be referring to Littlefinger?

What is the importance of Jon Arryn's son warding at Dragonstone instead of Casterly Rock?

Could these clues direct us to evidence of Littlefinger's responsibility in the death of Jon Arryn?

Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Jan 26th 11:22 PM
I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere before, but hell if I'm going to read umpteen posts to find it. I believe someone speculated that perhaps Little Robert Arryn is really Littlefinger's get. Someone else may have shot that down. But I think that Robert is Littlefinger's kid, and not Arryn's.

ab

Snake
User ID: 0317884 Jan 27th 7:37 AM
At Casterly Rock Robert would have been a hostage. It was Jon Arryn who wanted to send the boy to Dragonstone. Stannis and Jon knew about Jaime and Cersei. Plus, Stannis might have toughened little Robert up a bit.

Rughead
User ID: 0665994 Jan 27th 9:57 AM
Understood. Thanks. Is it mentioned somewhere that Cersei was pushing Robert Arryn toward Casterly Rock? Why would the Starks be told Robert was going to Casterly Rock? Were the Lannisters trying to get him before Jon Arryn figured out the incest?

Dirjj
User ID: 1954724 Jan 27th 11:10 AM
Just like Snake said, the Lannisters wanted him as a hostage. I suppose he left out "wanted him as a hostage to keep Jon Arryn's mouth shut"

ab

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 27th 12:38 PM
I had the understanding that the arrangements for Robert to be ward at Casterly Rock was made soon _after_ Jon Arryn was dead?

After all, I don't think Robert Baratheon would have second-guessed Jon Arryn's wish in the matter - to have him ward at Dragonstone.

Hence, the Lannisters would have meant to shut _Lysa_ up, not Jon.

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 27th 2:13 PM
That's the right understanding, from what I gathered. Jon's plans were firm until he died. Then Cersei moved quickly to get Robert to get Tywin to do it, and Lysa fled when Tywin agreed. I believe Cersei said they could have held Robert hostage, essentially, to keep Lysa quiet.

Padraig
User ID: 9363883 Jan 27th 3:02 PM
Would I be correct in saying that Cersei thinks Lysa may have learned about the incest from Jon and thus wants to keep her quiet? But then surely by threatening to take her child that would just encourage Lysa to say something.

Or did Lysa know nothing and just wanted to keep her child. Tywin thought by having Robert as his ward then he could ensure that the Warden of the East would be Jaime and Robert would be reared loyal to the Lannisters.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Jan 27th 3:08 PM
Well, Lysa didn't know anything about the incest, as far as I can tell.

Cersei mentioned that Lysa had made 'accusations', which I understood to be accusations of the Lannisters being behind Arryn's death.
If these accusations were made before or after it was known that the Lannisters pressed Robert for warding li'l Robert at the Rock, I don't know.

Padraig
User ID: 9363883 Jan 27th 3:38 PM
Hmm. Well IIRC Cersei knew Jon had learned the truth so Cersei may have thought that Lysa had learned the same from Jon. I had the impression she wasn't that upset by Jon's death just about the state of Robert Arryn. I had thought that she started to make trouble _after_ it was suggested to Robert B to give Robert A over to the the Lannisters. Seems to fit or paranoia over her child more. But I am half guessing.

Rughead
User ID: 9627953 Jan 28th 3:04 AM
A post-mortem Lannister scheme to get Robert A. as collateral makes sense, but something more subtle is (also?) going on.

We never meet Jon Arryn, but little Robert seems as much an Arryn as Joffrey seems a Baratheon (sp?). How did Lysa become SO wierd so fast (we meet her months? after Jon's death), or did she?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Jan 28th 5:56 AM
She was probably going unbalanced within a couple of years of her marriage, particularly if a miscarriage or two happened in that short time frame. As Brynden told Catelyn, Lysa was not as strong as Cat and her marriage had started politically and remained polite, unlike Cat's strong and loving relationship with Ned.

labor
User ID: 9614573 Jan 29th 5:52 PM
I really don't see why a young and healthy Littlefinger would father such a sickly boy as Robert Arryn. A 70-year old Jon Arryn who had big problems with producing heirs before would fit better here, IMHO. Unless, of course _all_ of Robert's sickliness was due entirely to Lysa's excessive fussing.

BTW, accusations against the Lannisters as a means to protect little Robert from fosterage at Casterly Rock... That seems likely. But then her treatment of Tyrion becomes incredibly hypocritical as well.

Rughead User ID: 0665994	Jan 26th 10:23 PM Lord Tully's confused and hallucinatory statements to Cat (thinking she was Lysa) included, "That stripling...wretched boy...not speak that name to me, your duty...your mother, she would ..." Could he be referring to Littlefinger? What is the importance of Jon Arryn's son warding at Dragonstone instead of Casterly Rock? Could these clues direct us to evidence of Littlefinger's responsibility in the death of Jon Arryn?
Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Jan 26th 11:22 PM I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere before, but hell if I'm going to read umpteen posts to find it. I believe someone speculated that perhaps Little Robert Arryn is really Littlefinger's get. Someone else may have shot that down. But I think that Robert is Littlefinger's kid, and not Arryn's. ab
Snake User ID: 0317884	Jan 27th 7:37 AM At Casterly Rock Robert would have been a hostage. It was Jon Arryn who wanted to send the boy to Dragonstone. Stannis and Jon knew about Jaime and Cersei. Plus, Stannis might have toughened little Robert up a bit.
Rughead User ID: 0665994	Jan 27th 9:57 AM Understood. Thanks. Is it mentioned somewhere that Cersei was pushing Robert Arryn toward Casterly Rock? Why would the Starks be told Robert was going to Casterly Rock? Were the Lannisters trying to get him before Jon Arryn figured out the incest?
Dirjj User ID: 1954724	Jan 27th 11:10 AM Just like Snake said, the Lannisters wanted him as a hostage. I suppose he left out "wanted him as a hostage to keep Jon Arryn's mouth shut" ab
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 27th 12:38 PM I had the understanding that the arrangements for Robert to be ward at Casterly Rock was made soon _after_ Jon Arryn was dead? After all, I don't think Robert Baratheon would have second-guessed Jon Arryn's wish in the matter - to have him ward at Dragonstone. Hence, the Lannisters would have meant to shut _Lysa_ up, not Jon.
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 27th 2:13 PM That's the right understanding, from what I gathered. Jon's plans were firm until he died. Then Cersei moved quickly to get Robert to get Tywin to do it, and Lysa fled when Tywin agreed. I believe Cersei said they could have held Robert hostage, essentially, to keep Lysa quiet.
Padraig User ID: 9363883	Jan 27th 3:02 PM Would I be correct in saying that Cersei thinks Lysa may have learned about the incest from Jon and thus wants to keep her quiet? But then surely by threatening to take her child that would just encourage Lysa to say something. Or did Lysa know nothing and just wanted to keep her child. Tywin thought by having Robert as his ward then he could ensure that the Warden of the East would be Jaime and Robert would be reared loyal to the Lannisters.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Jan 27th 3:08 PM Well, Lysa didn't know anything about the incest, as far as I can tell. Cersei mentioned that Lysa had made 'accusations', which I understood to be accusations of the Lannisters being behind Arryn's death. If these accusations were made before or after it was known that the Lannisters pressed Robert for warding li'l Robert at the Rock, I don't know.
Padraig User ID: 9363883	Jan 27th 3:38 PM Hmm. Well IIRC Cersei knew Jon had learned the truth so Cersei may have thought that Lysa had learned the same from Jon. I had the impression she wasn't that upset by Jon's death just about the state of Robert Arryn. I had thought that she started to make trouble _after_ it was suggested to Robert B to give Robert A over to the the Lannisters. Seems to fit or paranoia over her child more. But I am half guessing.
Rughead User ID: 9627953	Jan 28th 3:04 AM A post-mortem Lannister scheme to get Robert A. as collateral makes sense, but something more subtle is (also?) going on. We never meet Jon Arryn, but little Robert seems as much an Arryn as Joffrey seems a Baratheon (sp?). How did Lysa become SO wierd so fast (we meet her months? after Jon's death), or did she?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Jan 28th 5:56 AM She was probably going unbalanced within a couple of years of her marriage, particularly if a miscarriage or two happened in that short time frame. As Brynden told Catelyn, Lysa was not as strong as Cat and her marriage had started politically and remained polite, unlike Cat's strong and loving relationship with Ned.
labor User ID: 9614573	Jan 29th 5:52 PM I really don't see why a young and healthy Littlefinger would father such a sickly boy as Robert Arryn. A 70-year old Jon Arryn who had big problems with producing heirs before would fit better here, IMHO. Unless, of course _all_ of Robert's sickliness was due entirely to Lysa's excessive fussing. BTW, accusations against the Lannisters as a means to protect little Robert from fosterage at Casterly Rock... That seems likely. But then her treatment of Tyrion becomes incredibly hypocritical as well.