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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / The Isle of Faces and the colour 'green'

Next 20 Messages

Lirvon Feb 18th 5:01 AM
Well, I havn't seen this idea anywhere else on the web, although I certainly wouldn't put any wagers on it not being discussed before, but here it goes:

First off, I think that the Isle of Faces is that small island near Harrenhall. The reason for this is a quote on p738 (UK paperback).

"... the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amist the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye... they forged the Pact... every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of faces."

Secondly, I would like to point out the repeated use of the colour green, with "Green Men", "Greenseers", and "Green sight". My guess is that they are all related somehow to the children of the forest. Perhaps with their magic?

Another interesting point is that at the end of ACOK, Arya just happens to be in the vicinity of God's Eye, and the Isle of Faces...

Thoughts about any of this, anyone?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 18th 6:08 AM
The Isle of Faces and the green men probably aren't going to play a part until rather later in the series. Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie seem to be headed northwest, towards Riverrun.

As to the whole thing with green, they're certainly all related. :)

labor
User ID: 0067194 Feb 18th 6:57 AM
I don't know. I wouldn't put it out of realm of possibility that Arya's escape could be noticed too early, the pursuit mounted and that she would have to hide on the Isle of Faces. I mean, she is in the vicinity and why not give her wandering some new focus insted of trying (and never succeeding) to get to her family and witnessing atrocities of war. It was good enough for ACOK, IMHO and sort of provided us with a "smallfolk" POV, but would be stale if it continues in ASOS.

Arya'd become "Voyager" or "Slider" of Westeros" unless she aquires new goals/impressions/ important knowledge soon.

Ser Benjen
User ID: 9844073 Feb 18th 7:48 AM
Lirvon, I agree that the reoccurence of the green theme points to the Children of the Forest. Especially in the description of Jojen Reed. I think the Crannogmen are mixed bloodlines of the First men and the Children. Perhaps descendants of the Green men.

I also think that the Isle of Faces will come into the story in a big way, but like Ran, I do not think we'll hear about it in more detail until a Dance with Dragons or the Winds of Winter (I think those were GRRM's prospective titles for book #4 and #5).

One of the last questions in the Event Horizon chat with GRRM touched the Isle of Faces. Here is that question posed by Linda and GRRM's answer:

<Linda> Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms?

<George_RR_Martin> The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books.
((Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys))

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 18th 8:11 AM
Heh, that was my question. I had my fiancee ask it to improve the chances that it'd be picked. ;)

Going to the Isle of Facs requires a boat, and as far as we've seen, there are no useable boats left anywhere on the lake. Can't see her going that way. And we know we're going to learn about Thoros and Beric (or whatever), and her POV is the obvious candidate for it. It'll also put us back in touch with the few remaining Winterfell men who came south with Ned.

Lirvon Feb 18th 2:42 PM
Hmm - I still think that it is possible that Arya has some sort of contact with the green men, even if she doesn't see the island... but then I was waiting for Arya's wolf to save her from some dangerous situation all throughout ACOK. Maybe it will happen in ASOS...

And, I just remembered another thought that I had about the "sacred order" of green men - maybe they are druids/priests of the old gods? If they are, then that would provide an avenue for Jon to be released from his vows...

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 18th 2:53 PM
Well, how exactly would she have contact with them? Magical contact, do you mean? I don't think there's any indication to it. My personal feeling has always been that we're going to see the Isle of Faces as a rallying point against the Others down the road.

As to the green men, I don't think they're anything like priests -- just caretakers of the trees. I think the indication we have from the books is that the old gods didn't have intermediaries, in the form of priests, as arbitrators between 'common' men and the gods.

Could be that there were, though. I just don't feel it's probable. It'd be a cheap out for Jon, in any case. So many people are ready for him to abandon his vows as is. I'd rather he stuck to them, as much as possible and at whatever cost. ;)

Lirvon Feb 18th 11:48 PM
Well, almost anything to do with the Isle of Faces and the Green Men is speculation, and we don't know whether or not there is some rule confining the Green Men to the Isle of Faces in all circumstances... if there isn't, then Arya might meet up with someone who is from the Isle of Faces, although they might not make their origin known if this does happen... (maybe something to do Arya's wolf?)

And as to Jon being released from his vows, it is my opinion that IF it does happen, then it will be the old gods themselves that release him from them. (Remember when Bran was praying and Osha interpreted the sound of the wind for him?) The Green Men would just be interpreters... But come to think of it, it would probably make a better story if Jon learnt to understand the sounds of the wind himself... *shrugs*

Maeglin
User ID: 0707654 Feb 19th 1:13 AM
Another way for Jon to be released from his vows would be if the nights watch ceased to exist which could be a fair chance if the wildlings have as many people as they seem to

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Feb 19th 2:31 AM
I think green is Martin's favorite color. I like yellow though, because that was my baby blanket's color. I also like aqua green.

I am immensely tired right now. I think I will sleep before I say anything else stupid.

labor
User ID: 0798784 Feb 19th 3:10 AM
Maeglin: "Now my watch begins. It will not end until my death". It doesn't matter whether the Night's Watch continues to exist or not.

Maeglin
User ID: 0707654 Feb 19th 4:23 AM
Who would hold a person to their vows to a organisation that no longer exists? What would Jon do? Decide to sell his life as dearly as possible? very noble no doubt but also very very stupid. I doubt that he would be executed for breaking his vows if there is no nights watch there for him to keep his vow to

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 19th 5:00 AM
I think the point is that the Starks of Winterfell -- and Jon by extension -- hold their honor very highly. If his vow doesn't give him an out, he's not going to take it, unless he changes to a much more pragmatic view of what honor is (which some predict; it might well happen, though I admit I'd be sad to see it.)

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Feb 20th 7:23 AM
If Jon was the sole soul :o) who survived the annihilation of the Night's Watch, and the Wall was breached, what would Jon do?

In my mind, there is no doubt that Jon would still do his utmost to keep to his Oaths.
OTOH, it should be plain that it needs not necessarily mean to 'sell his life as dearly as possible', if by this it is meant that he will huddle alone on the Wall to face the onslaught of the Others.

What I think it _would_ mean for Jon, is that he would always feel obligated to put any wish he has - for love, family, power, or what have you - behind the duty to protect the realm from the Others and whatever else would endanger the Seven Kingdom.

Some has predicted that Jon will be King. I think he'd only go for that option in as much it would aid him in stopping the Others. He would not do it for himself. Not as he is now, at least.

Swithin
User ID: 0289604 Feb 22nd 7:40 AM
Back to colour coordination: we've seen green (obviously the subject of this topic), we've seen blue (the Others), red (IIRC the eyes on the godswood faces, also perhaps Dany's dragons and Melisandre, but I find them too 'contemporary), and purple (the magic of Asshai.) How do these colours act as standards for the different forces? Does this tie in with various gods/races/kingdoms/magics in antiquity? Is blue the patron colour of death magic, for example? Green for nature and purple for intrigue? Thoughts?

Padraig
User ID: 0373644 Feb 22nd 2:59 PM
What about black and white? Both colours have heavy Other connections. As much as Blue I imagine.

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Feb 23rd 0:25 AM
Let's see, there's Mr. Pink (Mace Tyrell), Mr. Brown (Robert Baratheon), Mr. Blonde (Tywin Lannister) , Mr. Blue (Jon Arryn) and Mr. White (Ned Stark).
Mace Tyrell: Hey, why do I have to Mr. Pink and have the symbol of a flower?
Ned Stark: What does it matter what our symbols are?
Tyrell: Well that's easy for you to say, you're Mr. White and you have the leaping direwolf for a symbol. It's a cool coat-of-arms. I've got a son called the Knight of Flowers, it sounds too much like the Knight of Pansies. Whereas your son is called the Young Wolf.
Robert Baratheon: And why is my symbol a stag? It's a herbivore, and that's not very scary. Everyone else gets krakens and wolves and lions and falcons.
Old Man Targaryen: Shut up, let's go to work.

Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Mace Tyrell and Aerys Targaryen ARE:

RESERVOIR DOGS OF WAR

A film by George R. R. Tarantino
coming soon to a theater near you, rated NC-17 for gratuitous sex, violence, clothes and feasting.

Swith
User ID: 0289604 Feb 23rd 1:30 AM
:)

Padraig
User ID: 0331974 Feb 23rd 4:46 PM
Bravo

Malice
User ID: 9279843 Feb 23rd 6:32 PM
Street Prophet: you know that really ought to be put on the heraldry pages...

lol

Next 20 Messages

Lirvon	Feb 18th 5:01 AM Well, I havn't seen this idea anywhere else on the web, although I certainly wouldn't put any wagers on it not being discussed before, but here it goes: First off, I think that the Isle of Faces is that small island near Harrenhall. The reason for this is a quote on p738 (UK paperback). "... the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amist the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye... they forged the Pact... every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of faces." Secondly, I would like to point out the repeated use of the colour green, with "Green Men", "Greenseers", and "Green sight". My guess is that they are all related somehow to the children of the forest. Perhaps with their magic? Another interesting point is that at the end of ACOK, Arya just happens to be in the vicinity of God's Eye, and the Isle of Faces... Thoughts about any of this, anyone?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 18th 6:08 AM The Isle of Faces and the green men probably aren't going to play a part until rather later in the series. Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie seem to be headed northwest, towards Riverrun. As to the whole thing with green, they're certainly all related. :)
labor User ID: 0067194	Feb 18th 6:57 AM I don't know. I wouldn't put it out of realm of possibility that Arya's escape could be noticed too early, the pursuit mounted and that she would have to hide on the Isle of Faces. I mean, she is in the vicinity and why not give her wandering some new focus insted of trying (and never succeeding) to get to her family and witnessing atrocities of war. It was good enough for ACOK, IMHO and sort of provided us with a "smallfolk" POV, but would be stale if it continues in ASOS. Arya'd become "Voyager" or "Slider" of Westeros" unless she aquires new goals/impressions/ important knowledge soon.
Ser Benjen User ID: 9844073	Feb 18th 7:48 AM Lirvon, I agree that the reoccurence of the green theme points to the Children of the Forest. Especially in the description of Jojen Reed. I think the Crannogmen are mixed bloodlines of the First men and the Children. Perhaps descendants of the Green men. I also think that the Isle of Faces will come into the story in a big way, but like Ran, I do not think we'll hear about it in more detail until a Dance with Dragons or the Winds of Winter (I think those were GRRM's prospective titles for book #4 and #5). One of the last questions in the Event Horizon chat with GRRM touched the Isle of Faces. Here is that question posed by Linda and GRRM's answer: <Linda> Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms? <George_RR_Martin> The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books. ((Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys))
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 18th 8:11 AM Heh, that was my question. I had my fiancee ask it to improve the chances that it'd be picked. ;) Going to the Isle of Facs requires a boat, and as far as we've seen, there are no useable boats left anywhere on the lake. Can't see her going that way. And we know we're going to learn about Thoros and Beric (or whatever), and her POV is the obvious candidate for it. It'll also put us back in touch with the few remaining Winterfell men who came south with Ned.
Lirvon	Feb 18th 2:42 PM Hmm - I still think that it is possible that Arya has some sort of contact with the green men, even if she doesn't see the island... but then I was waiting for Arya's wolf to save her from some dangerous situation all throughout ACOK. Maybe it will happen in ASOS... And, I just remembered another thought that I had about the "sacred order" of green men - maybe they are druids/priests of the old gods? If they are, then that would provide an avenue for Jon to be released from his vows...
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 18th 2:53 PM Well, how exactly would she have contact with them? Magical contact, do you mean? I don't think there's any indication to it. My personal feeling has always been that we're going to see the Isle of Faces as a rallying point against the Others down the road. As to the green men, I don't think they're anything like priests -- just caretakers of the trees. I think the indication we have from the books is that the old gods didn't have intermediaries, in the form of priests, as arbitrators between 'common' men and the gods. Could be that there were, though. I just don't feel it's probable. It'd be a cheap out for Jon, in any case. So many people are ready for him to abandon his vows as is. I'd rather he stuck to them, as much as possible and at whatever cost. ;)
Lirvon	Feb 18th 11:48 PM Well, almost anything to do with the Isle of Faces and the Green Men is speculation, and we don't know whether or not there is some rule confining the Green Men to the Isle of Faces in all circumstances... if there isn't, then Arya might meet up with someone who is from the Isle of Faces, although they might not make their origin known if this does happen... (maybe something to do Arya's wolf?) And as to Jon being released from his vows, it is my opinion that IF it does happen, then it will be the old gods themselves that release him from them. (Remember when Bran was praying and Osha interpreted the sound of the wind for him?) The Green Men would just be interpreters... But come to think of it, it would probably make a better story if Jon learnt to understand the sounds of the wind himself... shrugs
Maeglin User ID: 0707654	Feb 19th 1:13 AM Another way for Jon to be released from his vows would be if the nights watch ceased to exist which could be a fair chance if the wildlings have as many people as they seem to
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Feb 19th 2:31 AM I think green is Martin's favorite color. I like yellow though, because that was my baby blanket's color. I also like aqua green. I am immensely tired right now. I think I will sleep before I say anything else stupid.
labor User ID: 0798784	Feb 19th 3:10 AM Maeglin: "Now my watch begins. It will not end until my death". It doesn't matter whether the Night's Watch continues to exist or not.
Maeglin User ID: 0707654	Feb 19th 4:23 AM Who would hold a person to their vows to a organisation that no longer exists? What would Jon do? Decide to sell his life as dearly as possible? very noble no doubt but also very very stupid. I doubt that he would be executed for breaking his vows if there is no nights watch there for him to keep his vow to
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 19th 5:00 AM I think the point is that the Starks of Winterfell -- and Jon by extension -- hold their honor very highly. If his vow doesn't give him an out, he's not going to take it, unless he changes to a much more pragmatic view of what honor is (which some predict; it might well happen, though I admit I'd be sad to see it.)
KAH User ID: 0541004	Feb 20th 7:23 AM If Jon was the sole soul :o) who survived the annihilation of the Night's Watch, and the Wall was breached, what would Jon do? In my mind, there is no doubt that Jon would still do his utmost to keep to his Oaths. OTOH, it should be plain that it needs not necessarily mean to 'sell his life as dearly as possible', if by this it is meant that he will huddle alone on the Wall to face the onslaught of the Others. What I think it _would_ mean for Jon, is that he would always feel obligated to put any wish he has - for love, family, power, or what have you - behind the duty to protect the realm from the Others and whatever else would endanger the Seven Kingdom. Some has predicted that Jon will be King. I think he'd only go for that option in as much it would aid him in stopping the Others. He would not do it for himself. Not as he is now, at least.
Swithin User ID: 0289604	Feb 22nd 7:40 AM Back to colour coordination: we've seen green (obviously the subject of this topic), we've seen blue (the Others), red (IIRC the eyes on the godswood faces, also perhaps Dany's dragons and Melisandre, but I find them too 'contemporary), and purple (the magic of Asshai.) How do these colours act as standards for the different forces? Does this tie in with various gods/races/kingdoms/magics in antiquity? Is blue the patron colour of death magic, for example? Green for nature and purple for intrigue? Thoughts?
Padraig User ID: 0373644	Feb 22nd 2:59 PM What about black and white? Both colours have heavy Other connections. As much as Blue I imagine.
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Feb 23rd 0:25 AM Let's see, there's Mr. Pink (Mace Tyrell), Mr. Brown (Robert Baratheon), Mr. Blonde (Tywin Lannister) , Mr. Blue (Jon Arryn) and Mr. White (Ned Stark). Mace Tyrell: Hey, why do I have to Mr. Pink and have the symbol of a flower? Ned Stark: What does it matter what our symbols are? Tyrell: Well that's easy for you to say, you're Mr. White and you have the leaping direwolf for a symbol. It's a cool coat-of-arms. I've got a son called the Knight of Flowers, it sounds too much like the Knight of Pansies. Whereas your son is called the Young Wolf. Robert Baratheon: And why is my symbol a stag? It's a herbivore, and that's not very scary. Everyone else gets krakens and wolves and lions and falcons. Old Man Targaryen: Shut up, let's go to work. Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Mace Tyrell and Aerys Targaryen ARE: RESERVOIR DOGS OF WAR A film by George R. R. Tarantino coming soon to a theater near you, rated NC-17 for gratuitous sex, violence, clothes and feasting.
Swith User ID: 0289604	Feb 23rd 1:30 AM :)
Padraig User ID: 0331974	Feb 23rd 4:46 PM Bravo
Malice User ID: 9279843	Feb 23rd 6:32 PM Street Prophet: you know that really ought to be put on the heraldry pages... lol