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A Song of Ice and Fire / A Clash of Kings II / Criticism

Next 20 Messages

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 21st 11:36 AM
Stategon started this thread in CoK III, but I've moved it here.

Strategon wrote:

FIrst - I admire Martins work. I think his "Fire and Ice" series is the best work in modern fantasy ever written. BUT there were some things which I didn't like in "Clash of Kings"

1. The parts on Jon and Arya were not thrilling enough.

2. The figure of Davos Seaworth ist not as well developed as the other charakters.

3. The conflict between Renly and Stannis ended too soon! Renly was a faszinating charakter; when I started to like him, he already passed away.

4. Theon Greyjoy - how could he become so evil in such a short period? He was not an nice charakter in GOT as well, but now he became an evil murderer . He is still a kid, isn't he?

5. The end of the novel - urg! First I thought that Bran und Rickon WERE actually killed - this would have been a perfect, absoultely dark end (with Bran as a 'ghost' in summers body now). But when I experienced that they are still alive, I was disappointed. Was Martin too shy to let them die?

Ran
User ID: 0867924 Feb 21st 11:38 AM
Malice Wrote:

1. I certainly found both Arya and Jon's chapters very interesting. Arya is my favorite character though... And didn't you find the beginnings of apathy sprouting within her fascinating? I did. (Poor Arya!)

2. I thought Davos was very well-done -- perhaps you've been getting used to "noble" POVs? Davos gives us a look at a low-born character, I liked that.

3. Ended too soon? You would rather have Martin toss it in with all the other plotlines he has to finish before the end of the series? Give the poor man a break! :) Actually, I was a little disappointed that Renly couldn't discuss peaches with his dear brother any longer, but there you go, Martin's offed a character you wanted around for a while so... (go to #5)

4. Theon was a nasty bastard from the start. Re-read his parts in AGOT.

5. Why should Bran and Rickon have died? Isn't it enough that Bran lost the use of his legs? That Rickon's practically going insane? I genuinely care for most of the "good guys" -- I don't want them to die. Martin's got something going when he can put you in suspence *and* off characters you like, to add to the realism of the story... But many people thought ACOK was gritty enough.

KAH
User ID: 0541004 Feb 21st 11:58 AM
Strategon;

IIRC, Theon is at least over eighteen years old -
and you are considered a man grown at sixteen, so Theon is not a child anymore.

Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 21st 4:16 PM
My two cents:

1. If you don't get into certain characters, thats fine--it's all individual taste. Personaly, Jon and Arya are my favs. (yes, I know...just like everyone else...)

2. So Seaworth did not have a lot of chapters devoted to him--so what? From the looks of it, the family will be more important later on.

3. I agree!! Renly should not have died so quick. I thought the conflict between the brothers didnt last long enough--and was brought to an end too ubruptly.

4. I sort of understand what you're saying Strategon. I found myself paging back through AGOT wondering "what the heck happened to this runt?" Athough I'm not sure I'd be so quick to make Theon's bad habits a weakness in Martin's writting...

5. I was extremely glad Bran and Rickon were not dead. Thats my personal opinion. Hey, we can't end up with all the Starks dead! That would be sort of pointless, to put so much emphasis on them throughout both books, only to have so many of them die. Rather, I think it's actually more exciting that they are not, yet people think they are--think about it--Martin is setting us up for a helluva scene when people realize that they are in fact not dead.

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Feb 22nd 0:08 AM
Well, I think I know what Strategon is talking about in regards to Jon and Dany, it didn't strike me as being very real. Kind of corny actually. Whenever Robb was talking to Bran about his doubts or how it would be nice to see their mother or father again. It seemed very realistic and well done to me.
I love Martin as a writer, but Jon and Arya seemed very strained. Mussing her hair, saying things at the same time and then laughing, it all made me wince.

Strategon
User ID: 1599514 Feb 22nd 6:59 AM
OK, I see I have to explain some of my points a bit more clearly.

1. I also like Jon an Arya (Arya a bit more). But in her parts not VERY many things are happening. Mainly she is caught in that nasty castle and has to understand how powerless she is. Well-written - but compared to the other charakters, just not thrilling enough. The same thing with Jon: Martin has described the search for Benjen just too long. It would have been better if Jon has reached Mance Rayders "court" already in COK.

2. Davos is an interesting charakter - but there are just three or four chapters about him. Martin did'nt give him enough space to develop as a deep charakter.

5. I like Bran and Rickon ... but personally, I am thinking it would have been a brilliant, gritty end if both of them would die in the end of the novel. (Bran wouldn't be really dead, of course.)
(OK, I agree, it would have been really a dark end ... but I like dark ends!)

Generic Eric, I experienced the same when I read the chapters about Theon. It started when Martin described him as a sexmaniac. I know, Theon had already some sexual experiences in Winterfell, but how he became such a nasty macho? --- By the way, I will miss Theon in the next book.

Swithin
User ID: 0289604 Feb 22nd 7:24 AM
Strategon, I find myself agreeing to most of your points *to a degree*.

My major problems come from ACoK.

Brienne is by no means innovative. She is written exactly as she is portrayed. Too big and too clumsy.

Too many characters have the ability to 'mysteriously disappear', when it's obvious that they'll be back.

Gendry is a cliche. He falls in love with Arya and discovers his noble heritage to find that he's the truest Baratheon left next to Edric, who'll either be considered incestual or dead by that time. They marry, and the two houses become fast friends and the Starks have much greater political influence. Also, what is it with fantasy epics and foundry apprentices?

The Vale subplot is great, but it seems to be much ado about little at this point in time. Throwing in some of the twists and political complications certain to come in later volumes would help make it more immediate and dramatic to the reader.

Why do we have all these gay men but no lesbians? Adultery, prostitution, incest, rape, homosexual relations, and all other forms of sexual relations leading to slander are on every other page, save gynosexual relations. What all Westerosi women are automatically straight?

I like the idea that the Hound is in love with Sansa, but I'd like more references and for all the scenes to be slightly more subtle... delicate.

Too little of Tytos Blackwood. We need more of him. He's got the coolest colours, threads, and device in the entire series.

The problem Jordan is suffering is that his bestiary/baddie list is growing in every book. This by itself isn't bad, but it's gotten to the point where since the characters grow stronger book by book looking back the enemies from TEotW seem laughable. GRRM seems to be slipping in this direction slightly. MacGuffin villains are *bad*, I just hope they don't show up as often as they did in ACoK. There is no need. Then again, I trust GRRM feels this and has no plans to give us a new Melisandre character in *every* book.

Tyrion getting laid: good thing. Tyrion getting laid every other page: very good thing, I like the guy. Tyrion getting laid graphically whilst no one else seems to be: the dwarfsex can get a bit trite.

Errm, that seems to be it. Nothing to merit a step down from my 10.0 rating of his work.

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Feb 22nd 8:01 AM
I think the Melisandre thing can be attributed to the revival of magic since the birth of the dragons. We should expect the nature of the "baddies" to change a bit and for some folk to be introduced who are more reliant on magic. A bit of the Jordan thing but far more justifiable in the context of the story. In fact, I think its essential. The current combatants likely will end up on the same side when faced by far more dangerous enemies.

I agree about the Hound/Sansa thing. GRRM has sort of beaten us over the head with that relationship and I think it lost a bit of its subtlety.

The one thing I would be most critical of is the "killing" of Bran and Rickon. I never thought for a moment that they were dead. Bran is clearly a character whose most interesting moments are ahead of him, and his death would do nothing to really advance the story as did Ned's. I didn't buy it, so it wasn't a revelation to me when they turned out to be alive. It was overplayed. There also are one or two tactical things I would grumble about but those are minor.

But this all is nitpicking. ASOIAF is the best fantasy series I've read since LOTR, and I am constantly amazed at the detailed plotting and the author's ability to surprise us with plot twists that are derived from reason, not simply cinjured out of thin air. Plus, the characters are simply great.

Generic Eric
User ID: 8339223 Feb 22nd 9:14 AM
Ditto on that last paragraph Jeff...

thorfinn
User ID: 9906923 Feb 22nd 9:38 AM
Call me weird but, I liked the Jon and Arya parts a lot. During Arya's I was always hoping she would escape or find someone that would help her. And the fact that never really happened (except for Jagen) she developed right before my eyes as a strong Stark growing up a bit fast but, doing what needs to be done.

I liked Jons chapters a lot because it gave us more clues about the others and his development. His decesions give me hope he will stay as a man in black but, one that has broken many vows, due to circumstances. It setup a lot of things that could happen in the next book. I liked going from the South to way North. Totally different worlds. I find it kinda cool that both Jon and Arya are almost alone in their struggles.

As with the rest of the characthers they are awesome too. The only ones I did not like so much are Catelyn and Davos but, they are well done and in reality I really started to like Davos a lot by the end of the book. Theon did suprise me though. I had a different felling of his attitude during GoT but, now that I re-read it, it does not suprise me at all.

No gripes from me.

Long live Tyrion, Dany, Jon, and Arya! Oh and Bronn and Bran too!

Padraig
User ID: 0373644 Feb 22nd 3:36 PM
1)Well most of this is personal opinoin but here goes. Arya's chapters in aCoK was more interesting than in aGoT. I mean what did she do in aGoT? Practiced "dancing", saw Varys conspire and Ned die. Not that I didn't like those chapters but things in aCoK were even better. She saw a country at war and what all that meant. Major growth. Jon's chapters in aGoT were better but that is the kind of give and take you get. Every POV can't be better.

2)Davos apparently lives so he will get a chance to develop a lot more.

3)Renly dieing was a major shock to me too but these things happen. Its what makes a great book.

4)Theon's chapters were excellent. I still don't think he is totally bad. He did what he thought he had to. Its just that he did them to the Starks. Theon will be back too.

5)Like Jeff I never believed that Bran and Rickon were going to die. I did think that their wolves were for a while. The whole Reek skinning them thing didn't make much since otherwise. But I was in suspense waiting for them to come back into the novel alive. Especially the way everything else was working out against the Starks. And then Winterfell fell. Oh dear!

Gendry has the makings of a cliche. Nothing more yet. Lesbians, er, well there has been no definitely gay man either. Just inneuendo (sp?) about that guy in the Vale, and the Renly, Loras thing. I would imagine women would be in an even more awkward position.

Hmm, I can't believe I gave a serious response to that;)

Am I the only person that the whole sex thing with Tyrion went over their heads? I know he spent a lot of time with what's her name but I don't remember them having sex, sex and more sex.

Brienne, well we have just been introduced to her. Plenty time for her to show what she is truly made of.

While i'm defending everything else I might as well say I didn't dislike the way Sandor and Sansa developed. And they may not be spending much time together in aSoS anyhow.

Whew. Done.

Padraig
User ID: 0373644 Feb 22nd 3:39 PM
Get there before someone else does. Its Shae I was talking about.

Street Prophet
User ID: 2107894 Feb 23rd 0:13 AM
Well, about the lesbians, I guess there was no Howard Stern Radio Show in those days so people weren't pushed into thinking lesbians were . . .

Jeff
User ID: 1536664 Feb 23rd 9:29 AM
thorfinn, you made a great point about being surprised by Theon but then _not_ being surprised after you reread AGOT. That's what I really like about Martin's writing. The plot takes unexpected twists, but when you review the story, you feel like slapping yourself for not seeing the plot twist coming. Not to go on a RJ bashing crusade, but many of the plot changes in WOT seem to happen with absolutely no justfication or background. Like he's inventing it all as he goes along.

Moreta
User ID: 0701364 Feb 23rd 10:52 PM
I always thought Theon was slime. He didn't surprise me very much.

I think Martin set up the Hound and Sansa relationship very well. We just ended up overanalyzing it :)

The bad thing was that Dany had far far too few chapters in ACOK. At least she's got ships now.

And no, I rather think that Davos will drop out of the POV picture when Stannis is offed. He may gain more chapters in ASOS but after that, zilch.

Ser Gary
User ID: 1523284 Feb 24th 7:15 AM
Greetings, Moreta. I've missed you. Who's been away from the board, me or you? I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph above. We are the ones who may have been guilty of overanalyzed the Sansa/Sandor relationship, but we darn well had a good time doing it :)

Strategon
User ID: 8729803 Feb 24th 12:43 PM
Well - I like that idea of "love relation" between Sandor and Sansa. I think it would be a great story plot if Sansa (who seems to be healed by her childish "true knight" faszination) would begin to love the Hound as well ...
Moreta, I agree, there were too few chapters about Dany. But I think that her role will permanently grow during the next books.
About the "killing" of Bran and Rickon: Well, there have been so many clues that Bran WILL acutally die soon and tranform to a "ghost" or soul in summer's body. I think that Brans physcial dead would have made him an even MORE fascinating charakter.

Padraig
User ID: 0707654 Feb 24th 1:30 PM
I'm not sure Strategon. Somebody pointed out that GRRM had enough chances to kill off Bran if he really wanted to. Of course if dies now I for one would be very surprised which could be what GRRM is playing for. You never know.

Moreta, well I never guessed Theon would fall so low;) I too would be surprised if Davos POV lasts for long more but one never knows what plans GRRM has for characters.

True, Dany didn't get up to much in aCoK. In fact it surprised me that nothing big did happen to her. Maybe because of that I still found her chapters interesting. It was better for GRRM to let Dany do little than create something artifically exciting for her to get caught up in. There was enough battles and killings going on in other chapters anyhow.

Strategon
User ID: 8729803 Feb 24th 1:48 PM
I thikn GRRM used the Dany chapters very well to give us the descriptions of the strange atmosphere of the Eastern continent. I think he really enjoyed to describe this world which is so much different from the Seven Kingdoms. (And I did enjoy reading). In fact, the descritpions of the East are by now much more detailful than the 7K.

Well, I think that especially the Dany chapters show very well that Martin is really a great author - not just a brilliant fantasy novellist. I think that "A Song of Ice and Fire" ist NOT just the best fantasy novel ever, but also a masterpiece of late 90ies literature.

But now back to citicism - we all know how good the books are.
Another point: I did'nt like Davos last chapter (when the ships were sunk by Tyrions nice chain). He was just passive in this chapter - as in the other ones. Martin just uses him as a "window" for Stannis, but he didn't give him real rellevance - I hope this is the right english word :) - as a character. He is doing nothing!

Padraig
User ID: 0707654 Feb 24th 2:09 PM
He's just showing absolute loyalty to Stannis. Loyalty is something in short supply in Westeros at the moment. I like him in that respect. But I will admit his main function in aCoK was to let us see into the minds of Stannis and Melisandre. He only had 3 chapters though to develop. Since GRRM has given him a POV in aSoS I do expect more from him.

He was passive in his last chapter. But what could he do? I certainly didn't dislike the chapter. I thought it was quite shocking really.

Next 20 Messages

Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 21st 11:36 AM Stategon started this thread in CoK III, but I've moved it here. Strategon wrote: FIrst - I admire Martins work. I think his "Fire and Ice" series is the best work in modern fantasy ever written. BUT there were some things which I didn't like in "Clash of Kings" 1. The parts on Jon and Arya were not thrilling enough. 2. The figure of Davos Seaworth ist not as well developed as the other charakters. 3. The conflict between Renly and Stannis ended too soon! Renly was a faszinating charakter; when I started to like him, he already passed away. 4. Theon Greyjoy - how could he become so evil in such a short period? He was not an nice charakter in GOT as well, but now he became an evil murderer . He is still a kid, isn't he? 5. The end of the novel - urg! First I thought that Bran und Rickon WERE actually killed - this would have been a perfect, absoultely dark end (with Bran as a 'ghost' in summers body now). But when I experienced that they are still alive, I was disappointed. Was Martin too shy to let them die?
Ran User ID: 0867924	Feb 21st 11:38 AM Malice Wrote: 1. I certainly found both Arya and Jon's chapters very interesting. Arya is my favorite character though... And didn't you find the beginnings of apathy sprouting within her fascinating? I did. (Poor Arya!) 2. I thought Davos was very well-done -- perhaps you've been getting used to "noble" POVs? Davos gives us a look at a low-born character, I liked that. 3. Ended too soon? You would rather have Martin toss it in with all the other plotlines he has to finish before the end of the series? Give the poor man a break! :) Actually, I was a little disappointed that Renly couldn't discuss peaches with his dear brother any longer, but there you go, Martin's offed a character you wanted around for a while so... (go to #5) 4. Theon was a nasty bastard from the start. Re-read his parts in AGOT. 5. Why should Bran and Rickon have died? Isn't it enough that Bran lost the use of his legs? That Rickon's practically going insane? I genuinely care for most of the "good guys" -- I don't want them to die. Martin's got something going when he can put you in suspence and off characters you like, to add to the realism of the story... But many people thought ACOK was gritty enough.
KAH User ID: 0541004	Feb 21st 11:58 AM Strategon; IIRC, Theon is at least over eighteen years old - and you are considered a man grown at sixteen, so Theon is not a child anymore.
Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 21st 4:16 PM My two cents: 1. If you don't get into certain characters, thats fine--it's all individual taste. Personaly, Jon and Arya are my favs. (yes, I know...just like everyone else...) 2. So Seaworth did not have a lot of chapters devoted to him--so what? From the looks of it, the family will be more important later on. 3. I agree!! Renly should not have died so quick. I thought the conflict between the brothers didnt last long enough--and was brought to an end too ubruptly. 4. I sort of understand what you're saying Strategon. I found myself paging back through AGOT wondering "what the heck happened to this runt?" Athough I'm not sure I'd be so quick to make Theon's bad habits a weakness in Martin's writting... 5. I was extremely glad Bran and Rickon were not dead. Thats my personal opinion. Hey, we can't end up with all the Starks dead! That would be sort of pointless, to put so much emphasis on them throughout both books, only to have so many of them die. Rather, I think it's actually more exciting that they are not, yet people think they are--think about it--Martin is setting us up for a helluva scene when people realize that they are in fact not dead.
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Feb 22nd 0:08 AM Well, I think I know what Strategon is talking about in regards to Jon and Dany, it didn't strike me as being very real. Kind of corny actually. Whenever Robb was talking to Bran about his doubts or how it would be nice to see their mother or father again. It seemed very realistic and well done to me. I love Martin as a writer, but Jon and Arya seemed very strained. Mussing her hair, saying things at the same time and then laughing, it all made me wince.
Strategon User ID: 1599514	Feb 22nd 6:59 AM OK, I see I have to explain some of my points a bit more clearly. 1. I also like Jon an Arya (Arya a bit more). But in her parts not VERY many things are happening. Mainly she is caught in that nasty castle and has to understand how powerless she is. Well-written - but compared to the other charakters, just not thrilling enough. The same thing with Jon: Martin has described the search for Benjen just too long. It would have been better if Jon has reached Mance Rayders "court" already in COK. 2. Davos is an interesting charakter - but there are just three or four chapters about him. Martin did'nt give him enough space to develop as a deep charakter. 5. I like Bran and Rickon ... but personally, I am thinking it would have been a brilliant, gritty end if both of them would die in the end of the novel. (Bran wouldn't be really dead, of course.) (OK, I agree, it would have been really a dark end ... but I like dark ends!) Generic Eric, I experienced the same when I read the chapters about Theon. It started when Martin described him as a sexmaniac. I know, Theon had already some sexual experiences in Winterfell, but how he became such a nasty macho? --- By the way, I will miss Theon in the next book.
Swithin User ID: 0289604	Feb 22nd 7:24 AM Strategon, I find myself agreeing to most of your points to a degree. My major problems come from ACoK. Brienne is by no means innovative. She is written exactly as she is portrayed. Too big and too clumsy. Too many characters have the ability to 'mysteriously disappear', when it's obvious that they'll be back. Gendry is a cliche. He falls in love with Arya and discovers his noble heritage to find that he's the truest Baratheon left next to Edric, who'll either be considered incestual or dead by that time. They marry, and the two houses become fast friends and the Starks have much greater political influence. Also, what is it with fantasy epics and foundry apprentices? The Vale subplot is great, but it seems to be much ado about little at this point in time. Throwing in some of the twists and political complications certain to come in later volumes would help make it more immediate and dramatic to the reader. Why do we have all these gay men but no lesbians? Adultery, prostitution, incest, rape, homosexual relations, and all other forms of sexual relations leading to slander are on every other page, save gynosexual relations. What all Westerosi women are automatically straight? I like the idea that the Hound is in love with Sansa, but I'd like more references and for all the scenes to be slightly more subtle... delicate. Too little of Tytos Blackwood. We need more of him. He's got the coolest colours, threads, and device in the entire series. The problem Jordan is suffering is that his bestiary/baddie list is growing in every book. This by itself isn't bad, but it's gotten to the point where since the characters grow stronger book by book looking back the enemies from TEotW seem laughable. GRRM seems to be slipping in this direction slightly. MacGuffin villains are bad, I just hope they don't show up as often as they did in ACoK. There is no need. Then again, I trust GRRM feels this and has no plans to give us a new Melisandre character in every book. Tyrion getting laid: good thing. Tyrion getting laid every other page: very good thing, I like the guy. Tyrion getting laid graphically whilst no one else seems to be: the dwarfsex can get a bit trite. Errm, that seems to be it. Nothing to merit a step down from my 10.0 rating of his work.
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Feb 22nd 8:01 AM I think the Melisandre thing can be attributed to the revival of magic since the birth of the dragons. We should expect the nature of the "baddies" to change a bit and for some folk to be introduced who are more reliant on magic. A bit of the Jordan thing but far more justifiable in the context of the story. In fact, I think its essential. The current combatants likely will end up on the same side when faced by far more dangerous enemies. I agree about the Hound/Sansa thing. GRRM has sort of beaten us over the head with that relationship and I think it lost a bit of its subtlety. The one thing I would be most critical of is the "killing" of Bran and Rickon. I never thought for a moment that they were dead. Bran is clearly a character whose most interesting moments are ahead of him, and his death would do nothing to really advance the story as did Ned's. I didn't buy it, so it wasn't a revelation to me when they turned out to be alive. It was overplayed. There also are one or two tactical things I would grumble about but those are minor. But this all is nitpicking. ASOIAF is the best fantasy series I've read since LOTR, and I am constantly amazed at the detailed plotting and the author's ability to surprise us with plot twists that are derived from reason, not simply cinjured out of thin air. Plus, the characters are simply great.
Generic Eric User ID: 8339223	Feb 22nd 9:14 AM Ditto on that last paragraph Jeff...
thorfinn User ID: 9906923	Feb 22nd 9:38 AM Call me weird but, I liked the Jon and Arya parts a lot. During Arya's I was always hoping she would escape or find someone that would help her. And the fact that never really happened (except for Jagen) she developed right before my eyes as a strong Stark growing up a bit fast but, doing what needs to be done. I liked Jons chapters a lot because it gave us more clues about the others and his development. His decesions give me hope he will stay as a man in black but, one that has broken many vows, due to circumstances. It setup a lot of things that could happen in the next book. I liked going from the South to way North. Totally different worlds. I find it kinda cool that both Jon and Arya are almost alone in their struggles. As with the rest of the characthers they are awesome too. The only ones I did not like so much are Catelyn and Davos but, they are well done and in reality I really started to like Davos a lot by the end of the book. Theon did suprise me though. I had a different felling of his attitude during GoT but, now that I re-read it, it does not suprise me at all. No gripes from me. Long live Tyrion, Dany, Jon, and Arya! Oh and Bronn and Bran too!
Padraig User ID: 0373644	Feb 22nd 3:36 PM 1)Well most of this is personal opinoin but here goes. Arya's chapters in aCoK was more interesting than in aGoT. I mean what did she do in aGoT? Practiced "dancing", saw Varys conspire and Ned die. Not that I didn't like those chapters but things in aCoK were even better. She saw a country at war and what all that meant. Major growth. Jon's chapters in aGoT were better but that is the kind of give and take you get. Every POV can't be better. 2)Davos apparently lives so he will get a chance to develop a lot more. 3)Renly dieing was a major shock to me too but these things happen. Its what makes a great book. 4)Theon's chapters were excellent. I still don't think he is totally bad. He did what he thought he had to. Its just that he did them to the Starks. Theon will be back too. 5)Like Jeff I never believed that Bran and Rickon were going to die. I did think that their wolves were for a while. The whole Reek skinning them thing didn't make much since otherwise. But I was in suspense waiting for them to come back into the novel alive. Especially the way everything else was working out against the Starks. And then Winterfell fell. Oh dear! Gendry has the makings of a cliche. Nothing more yet. Lesbians, er, well there has been no definitely gay man either. Just inneuendo (sp?) about that guy in the Vale, and the Renly, Loras thing. I would imagine women would be in an even more awkward position. Hmm, I can't believe I gave a serious response to that;) Am I the only person that the whole sex thing with Tyrion went over their heads? I know he spent a lot of time with what's her name but I don't remember them having sex, sex and more sex. Brienne, well we have just been introduced to her. Plenty time for her to show what she is truly made of. While i'm defending everything else I might as well say I didn't dislike the way Sandor and Sansa developed. And they may not be spending much time together in aSoS anyhow. Whew. Done.
Padraig User ID: 0373644	Feb 22nd 3:39 PM Get there before someone else does. Its Shae I was talking about.
Street Prophet User ID: 2107894	Feb 23rd 0:13 AM Well, about the lesbians, I guess there was no Howard Stern Radio Show in those days so people weren't pushed into thinking lesbians were . . .
Jeff User ID: 1536664	Feb 23rd 9:29 AM thorfinn, you made a great point about being surprised by Theon but then _not_ being surprised after you reread AGOT. That's what I really like about Martin's writing. The plot takes unexpected twists, but when you review the story, you feel like slapping yourself for not seeing the plot twist coming. Not to go on a RJ bashing crusade, but many of the plot changes in WOT seem to happen with absolutely no justfication or background. Like he's inventing it all as he goes along.
Moreta User ID: 0701364	Feb 23rd 10:52 PM I always thought Theon was slime. He didn't surprise me very much. I think Martin set up the Hound and Sansa relationship very well. We just ended up overanalyzing it :) The bad thing was that Dany had far far too few chapters in ACOK. At least she's got ships now. And no, I rather think that Davos will drop out of the POV picture when Stannis is offed. He may gain more chapters in ASOS but after that, zilch.
Ser Gary User ID: 1523284	Feb 24th 7:15 AM Greetings, Moreta. I've missed you. Who's been away from the board, me or you? I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph above. We are the ones who may have been guilty of overanalyzed the Sansa/Sandor relationship, but we darn well had a good time doing it :)
Strategon User ID: 8729803	Feb 24th 12:43 PM Well - I like that idea of "love relation" between Sandor and Sansa. I think it would be a great story plot if Sansa (who seems to be healed by her childish "true knight" faszination) would begin to love the Hound as well ... Moreta, I agree, there were too few chapters about Dany. But I think that her role will permanently grow during the next books. About the "killing" of Bran and Rickon: Well, there have been so many clues that Bran WILL acutally die soon and tranform to a "ghost" or soul in summer's body. I think that Brans physcial dead would have made him an even MORE fascinating charakter.
Padraig User ID: 0707654	Feb 24th 1:30 PM I'm not sure Strategon. Somebody pointed out that GRRM had enough chances to kill off Bran if he really wanted to. Of course if dies now I for one would be very surprised which could be what GRRM is playing for. You never know. Moreta, well I never guessed Theon would fall so low;) I too would be surprised if Davos POV lasts for long more but one never knows what plans GRRM has for characters. True, Dany didn't get up to much in aCoK. In fact it surprised me that nothing big did happen to her. Maybe because of that I still found her chapters interesting. It was better for GRRM to let Dany do little than create something artifically exciting for her to get caught up in. There was enough battles and killings going on in other chapters anyhow.
Strategon User ID: 8729803	Feb 24th 1:48 PM I thikn GRRM used the Dany chapters very well to give us the descriptions of the strange atmosphere of the Eastern continent. I think he really enjoyed to describe this world which is so much different from the Seven Kingdoms. (And I did enjoy reading). In fact, the descritpions of the East are by now much more detailful than the 7K. Well, I think that especially the Dany chapters show very well that Martin is really a great author - not just a brilliant fantasy novellist. I think that "A Song of Ice and Fire" ist NOT just the best fantasy novel ever, but also a masterpiece of late 90ies literature. But now back to citicism - we all know how good the books are. Another point: I did'nt like Davos last chapter (when the ships were sunk by Tyrions nice chain). He was just passive in this chapter - as in the other ones. Martin just uses him as a "window" for Stannis, but he didn't give him real rellevance - I hope this is the right english word :) - as a character. He is doing nothing!
Padraig User ID: 0707654	Feb 24th 2:09 PM He's just showing absolute loyalty to Stannis. Loyalty is something in short supply in Westeros at the moment. I like him in that respect. But I will admit his main function in aCoK was to let us see into the minds of Stannis and Melisandre. He only had 3 chapters though to develop. Since GRRM has given him a POV in aSoS I do expect more from him. He was passive in his last chapter. But what could he do? I certainly didn't dislike the chapter. I thought it was quite shocking really.